gurneyeagle

It really does, doesn't it! Guilt is an incredible emotion to play off of, as is ego!

We are all culpable for something at sometime, some of us are just willing to admit it was wrong.

Keep the flames burning!

gt1

gurneyeagle, you make a very good point, but the "Golden Rule" works both ways. When dealer first called our hero h-man, they didn't make a plegde based on morals, but choose to harras him with unfounded legal threats. I wouldn't keep any illusions about honesty and morality of the dealership.

gurneyeagle

I think you are an example of what I've been talking about. Thanks for proving my point.

Guys, I'll take a step back here. Please convince me that not disclosing problems with a car you are trading in is okay. For clarification's sake, assume that you have never been screwed by the dealer.

Forget the morale/ethical/legal arguments and slams. I apologize to those who have been offended. I don't see the logic in it.

gurneyeagle

Is there anyway to get paid for this? I'm having the most fun I've had in weeks!

I have no - none, zero, nada - illusions about the morality and honesty of the dealership.

Two points -

1. Our hero ( I love that description, I've raked the poor kid over the coals today, sorry h-man) got caught not disclosing the issue with the X5.

2. Whatever the dealers actions - past, present, or future have no relevance to his actions.

We've kind of turned h-man into a gun-slinger from the Old West trying to bring justice to a little town.

Bottom line - if he would have disclosed the issue with the Bimmer, we wouldn't be having the discussion. He acted irresponsibly.

Defending the action because "all dealers are crooks, everyone else does it" is a cop out.

subinf

I think you make a lot of very good points. My first reponse, not written here, was questioning the CEL code. I've dealt with a fair amount of CEL's and I dont always trust the scanner. Most of the reply codes have misdiagnosed an emission related item though, as I havent had very many problems with other codes being wrong.

The moral argument is very interesting. There are horror stories out there about dealerships taking a wrecked car and putting a new VIN on it so carfax wont catch the wreck. Most people hate the dealerships and want to screw them over, but by doing that you are bringing yourself to their level of deceit. I would like to know what exactly the dealership did by way of pre-inspection before taking the X5, but if there was no engine code then it would have been nearly impossible to tell if anything was out of the ordinary.

Though hindsight is 20/20 it probably would have been acceptable to say "the CEL was on last week but BMW took care of it," though it doesnt make much sense to talk about what should have been said, etc.

I think the dealer is going to take the hit on this one

subinf

Rapid1

well put. it's also obvious who fits that category in this thread. "get a lawyer" is the fix-all for the responsibility dodgers of the world. when it's all said and done, the original poster will probably pay more than if he had just disclosed the beemer had issues and worked his deal from there...not to mention the headache and bs he's endured, and will continue to endure until this is settled. this thread has sure brought the chumps out of the woodwork. judging by the majority of posts in this thread, it's pretty certain the law profession will continue to be well funded in the future.

bearcat2000

I truly can't believe how big of a discussion there has been over this. All in all, whether someone wasn't 100% straightforward on the deal is a mute point. Papers were signed, keys were handed over. On a used car there is no disclosure policy with the exception of a salvage title. When it comes down to it, he made a good deal and got rid of the X5 just in time. The X5 however, IMO is a piece of junk. I just got rid of one myself and I am so glad I never have to return for service there. On the contrary, I'm lovin' my new RL.

thorium

+1

BMW cannot start printing off your invoices and give them to some random 3rd party.

aw1

only defending him because he did nothing wrong. why disclose additional information about the X5 when the dealer didnt ask for it. they test drove it, looked it over, etc. then ok'd the trade. when you are in court, you dont disclose any information to help the other attorney. guess its the best way i can try to explain myself. but i do see you point of view. if everyone was more like you, then the world would be a better place. unfortunately it not. what comes around goes around and this dealership got it back and crying about it. maybe down the world it will come back to him, who knows.

chill_dog

This thread is amazing...such interest...probably because it's so amusing!

As for the Golden Rule...

1) Do unto others before they do unto you.
2) He who as the gold makes the rules.

Couldn't resist...

yangkimchi

Okay, this is getting interesting. Sorry, I'm new here so not sure if this is off-topic, if so, moderators are welcome to delete and let me know.

I'm curious about this hatred and animosity to car dealerships. I'm curious to know how many people on this board have felt they had been actually screwed by the dealer? Not your friends, not your relatives, but lets limit to immediate family. How many of you purchased a car from a dealer and felt that the dealer hid or misrepresented the condition of the car to you? I dont count "they charged me too much for my new car, or I paid above blue book value" as getting screwed. I mean buying a car and finding out it had been in accident, or that transmission was slipping, engine compression low, etc.

I've by no means bought a lot of cars, but I have never encountered a time when I thought a dealer intentionally sold me a car with known major problems and not made me whole.

subinf

but the dealership was the owner of the car and they took it to BMW for review...it will be interesting to see if the dealership really just gave them the invoice or gave them the service history. i think all that stuff is fair game for carfax

dalieu

i wish the world operated following the golden rule: 'Do onto others as you would have them do onto you,' but it doesn't. someone was right, natural instinct is 'survival of the fittest' or even better yet for humans, 'survival of the smartest.'

would you go out and buy a used car without research or without first running the VIN number? it is common sense to find as much about that car as possible. the dealer had a chance to do that.

if i were to trade in the car tho and the dealer asked me if there was something wrong. I would have told them that bmw said there were possible engine problems, and that they changed out the spark plugs and now the CEL is gone. i would not lie, but i would not tell the dealer exactly everything bmw told me.

everyone lives by a 'want for me life.' the guy at the dealer wants to make money, while you're trying to save money. i would have a hard time selling a car with engine problems to a private party because I'm worried about ME. I don't want them to come back and blame ME for it, causing ME headaches, plus I could not live with MYSELF if there were injuried due to a problem I passed on to them. i also believe this is one of the reasons why so many ppl bring their troubled cars to trade in at dealers, they rather have someone with access to a mechanic deal with the problem than some regular joe.

Clickit02

Good point! Let's set poll.

houdaman

this thread is getting pretty deep!

It was forsure MY invoice because the first time the salesman called me on the monday, he read out to me word for word what was on my invoice, and even said"they gave me a copy of your invoice here"

subinf

hmm, i still dont know if that would be an invasion of privacy. regardless i still dont think you have much to worry about with the dealership. so in canada you cant request that loser pays atty's fees? that sucks. i'd still direct all future correspondence with the dealer through your lawyer

JERU

Absolutely hilarious, things we know about the world we live in:

1) When entering a dealership, somebody has their hands on their ankles by the end of the transaction. In this situation, the sales guy is pissed because he didn't realize his pants were down until the guy left with the TL. Taking it to the BMW place to get checked out, is after the fact (not very bright), the most those BMW guys did was get him a soft heating pad to sit on.

2) Who in the hell fixes their car's problems before trading them in? Kind of defeats the purpose of buying a new one? Everyone on this board who does that, my hats off to you.

3) If you buy a car with As-Is on it, are you not accepting responsibility for any problems in the future? It is written for a reason, pay attention to it.

4) The first thing the dealership did when I traded in my Maxima was slap an As-Is sticker on it and sent it out to auction, no inspection, nothing. This is how it works, its why they are called USED cars. Nothing moral about it, its USED, your risk.

5) For every lawyer on this board there seems to be a Saint discussing the moral health of the world.

6) Why don't we ask him how much he paid for the TL and how much he got for the BMW? A seasoned car sales guy and a 19 year old kid, who do you think came out ahead on that one momentarily?

Its very hard to become a Saint, so lets not start throwing rocks unless we have all lead perfect moral lives.

Enjoy your TL, and being only 19, I see a Bentley in your future by 30. When you trade in the TL, tell the Bentley sales guy Acura transmissions are known to run forever and don't forget the As-Is.

Rapid1

this would have been the right thing to do. and maybe you wouldnt have made a deal but at least you wouldnt have passed on your troubles to the next guy, unaware. dealership employees are people just like us, with families to feed and the salesperson on your deal will probably end up with alot less than he figured he had coming, no matter how this all turns out.

it's the vehicles history record. you dont own it anymore so what difference would it make to you, who saw it, unless you were trying to hide something?

which is exactly what got me going on this thread. I worked in one for almost 20 years, in service and sales. while I cant say no one ever felt "ripped off", I will say that more often that not, we bent over backwards to make people happy and it cost a ton of money. and many times it was having to do major repairs on a "nice, one owner trade" that looked and seemed to run ok when we took it in and when we sold it, but had deeper issues that the previous owner had disguised or hidden in some way. and this cost me money personally on many occasions. one guy traded in a several year old S10 Blazer that had water in the oil from what turned out to be a cracked intake manifold and just before driving it down, he changed the oil and cleaned it up. it takes a few miles before this shows up and we sold the vehicle, in good faith, with no issues. well, you can guess the outcome of that one. we, the dealer were assholes for passing it off to the next guy. and it is only one of many. I've seen more rip offs from the consumer end than any of you could find me vice-versa. dealers that knowingly screw consumers like you guys describe dont stay in business long.

that is why some of the comments in this thread irritate me so much. and like was said, most of you dont even have a bad experience to share, your just jumping on the bandwagon that thinks its cool to slam dealerships. even if you do have something to share, there's always two sides to it and we dont have the benefit of hearing the other side.

a rip off is a rip off...no matter which way it comes from. poeple that generally do their dealings in "good faith" get dealt with that way...

houdaman

i wasnt hiding anything, and frankly dont care that BMW gave them my invoice, I was just answering questions that were left on the thread.


for price issues:
-01 4.4 V8 X5 goes in my area for around $36-41,000.
They gave me $25,000+$3000 if I included my 20" wheels on it, totalling $28,000 that they gave me.

-Price of the Acura TL was $33500
It was sold to me at $33,000.
(also it shows how shady the dealer is!...I put in a offer for $32,000 at first, then the next day the price of the TL got raised to $35,000 on their website!)
-On the sales contract it says the car has 33000km, but it was at 38800km.
-TL has the rear backup sensors, and the salesman just told me yeah it automatically works when you reverse...turns out they dont work at all...my mistake for not looking at it closer AND the next day I bought it I realized that the back bumper was a COMPLETELY different shade of white on ONE side of it= A hit that was repaired by the previous owner. Im not bitching about the dealer..it was my mistake that I didnt look closer and I accepted that.

x-mode007

This is very interesting.... It took me a loooonggg time to read all of the threads....


Dude if I were you I would fight this dealer.. It is clearly that they made the mistake of not checking the car completely out. They chould have taken it to the BMW place to get it checked. Additionally some dealers actually take a trade in to another place like another dealer or a car broker to have it looked at, OR they call them in while to sit and wait for your paperwork. I once tried to trade my Benz S320 to a MB dealer and they took the car out and did not return for 1 hour +. I don't think that if you had a problem with the TL and it was sold as is that they would do anything about it like buy it back. DO NOT LET THEM SCARE YOU. Let the system work and go to court if you have to. Make a counter lawsuit for time and effort wasted for FU$#$ with you.

Just my 2Cents.

dodoman

Wonder if what is being discussed here could be used by the Dealer's lawyer and somehow find something in there that elude to houdaman's intent...Not that there is or is not - but could be made to seem that way based on discussion threads

If I was ur lawyer, I'd probably say - Do not discuss the case with anyone other than myself.

Wonder if it was the smartest thing to even start this thread...but then again, I have been known to not always know what I am talking about

my 0.02

houdaman

I have been watching what im saying on this thread yes, I have told nothing but what happend...

dodoman

Possible case of falling off the pan into the fire...or something like that - ffrom the dealer's perspective...that would be too funny

automag928

houdaman -- how did the x5 drive when you traded it in? I'm just curious, with that 28% leakdown and all...

zibadun

H-man was involved in a financial transaction. In any trade each party attempts to profit but only one does. It was the dealer's blunder if he assumed that h-man was uninformed about the condition of his own car. Dealer should have recognized that h-man had some kind of "insider" information about the value of his X5. They had an opportunity to ask questions and to test drive, but they still failed to properly evaluate the car. I don't see how this is h-man's fault.

What if this GM bought shares of a company that went bankrupt two weeks later? Would he have a right to harass the company and demand his money back, even presuming the company knew it had financial problems before selling their stock to GM?

subinf

I dont think your stock analogy works out. If the company was posting false earnings or knew something was wrong and did not disclose it to the public/shareholders...problems there

How was the dealer supposed to "recognize" the "insider" information??

jginnane

Howdy-hi Houda --

Nice, interesting thread! Let me start a fresh tangent...

You indicated some posts back that the dealership threatened to confiscate your TL. OK ... serious threat. But before you go and pay out the wazoo for a lawyer over something that may or may not happen -- get some of the best local advice you can. FREE.

I'm talking about your local police force. Constables, Mounties, whatever the * you've got up there. Ahh... "Police" will do.

Go to your local police precinct and find someone to talk to -- midlevel or higher. (Not a fresh beat patrolman, IOW, but someone who's got a few years in uniform.) Give him hardcopy condensed from the narratives here. (Assume this hardcopy will get kicked upstairs, maybe even over by the district attorney's office.)

Almost any red-blooded male is going to love this tale. Police know the letter of the law and the specific procedures involving reposessions. (Repo men often have to register and advise the local police before they make a pickup.) They also know how you can legitimately fight something like this.

Further ... an experienced police officer is going to be able to recommend an attorney who's up on this area of expertise, if it comes it. And because your possible legal consultation will come thru an informal referral, the price may be better than if you just pick up the phone book.

There's also an outside chance a seasoned police officer can call up someone he knows at the dealership and tell them to ice the harrassment. (Maybe a 5% chance... but hey, you only need one thing to work, so let's try all 20 ideas.)

zibadun

This happens all the time. Companies don't have to inform you personally about their troubles. If you failed to do the research and bought rotten stock it's nobody's fault but yours.

Why dealers have to be always winning? They take some risk by accepting a trade in and when they lose on a deal every once in a while hthey should not be screeming bloody murder.

Mindworm

Another interesting bit to think about.....

How long did this dealership keep that X5 on their web site and on the lot for sale after they contacted you saying that they knew there was an issue with the vehicle?

graphicguy

What a load of bullshit you're going through Houda......

First, you did "due diligence" in representing and fixing the BMW. It's not a moral matter. The repairs may have.....might have.....been hefty. But, they really didn't know. You decided to trade in the car because of that uncertainty. Nothing wrong with that. So, put the moral issue to bed. It's not a moral issue. All of that has nothing to do with your supposed dilema, however.

You're 19. The dealership is pulling some pretty crazy stuff on you.....probably because of your age.

Tell them to take a hike.

They bought your car. They're professional assessors onto the value of vehicles. They screwed up. You own your TL. If they try to tow it, you get them for theft. They have absolutely no leg to stand on by doing that. They won't even try to.

Next time the dealership tries to strong arm you, call their bluff. The next time they call, tell them you are recording the conversation. Ask them exactly what they are going to do. Tape it. Then tell them you're sending the matter to the attorney general's office in your state. Matter of fact, if they do send you any correspondence, tell them that will go to the attorney general's office, too.

Contact your local media's "consumer advocate". Tell the dealership you're doing so.

Bad publicity is not what any dealership wants.

Don't put up with this kind of crap. This isn't as difficult as they're trying to make it.

TLinSA

Dude, you need a lawyer to explain the law to you and give you your options for the best course of action to take.

"He might be talking out of his ass." "I doubt he can put a lein on the TL." WTF?
What kind of lawyer is that?

subinf

Tell that to those who bought Enron

Spryster

Hey Houda,
I know that everyone on this site has his/her opinion about the posts on here. This dealship that your dealing with is just trying a scare tactic first, then they are going to try to push you in to some legal b/s. Don't let them mess with you too much tye know that hey made a mistake and now they are gonna come after the "little guy" in this. If you stand your ground, and if needed get a lawyer to propery represent you. Wish you luck man, and let us know how it turns out. Just remember if the tables were turned on this they would of left you out in cold saying "sold as-is" but since you beat them at their own game they look foolish and became upset.

gdcwatt

You could reasonably expect a car dealer to have the expertise and tools to effect any require maintenance to the X5 to maximize their profit. They should have recognized the potential when they saw it.

eneg

Okay, we know lawyers are #1.
Is #2 Real Estate Agents or Car Salesmen/Dealerships?
I get these two mixed up. . .

A lawyer speaking about "morals!"

That's the real joke of this thread!!!!!!

Eneg

FightingTL

Lawyers and morals are a big new deal.

The Bar associations are not happy with the conduct of many lawyers and have been pulling licenses like crazy. Not only that but they are now requiring professional responsibility courses in law school and have made a substantial must pass part of the bar exam about professional responsibility.


Anyways... Tell your lawyer he's a retard if he cant answer whether they can put a lien on an owned car or not.

subinf

Everyone hates lawyers until they need one...

kenny5

I browsed through this long thread rather quickly. So what I am going to say may or may not be applicable, but I think it is worthy of your reading, houdaman.

In the U.S., there are two types of liens: consensual and non-consensual. Consensual liens generally arise by contractual agreement (e.g. the bank has a lien on your car if you finance your car purchase through them). Non-consensual liens generally arise from a judgment against you and the judgment creditor wants to place a judicial lien on your assets, such as your car -- a process call attachment.

In your case, I don't believe you financed your car purchase through the dealer, so the dealer has no consensual lien on your car. Also, there is a non-consensual lien because the dealer has not even sued you (much less than getting a judgment). So, the dealer is only trying to scare you by telling you all sorts of nonsense.

If the dealer ever tries to tow you car, it is grand theft auto and is a criminal offense that is punishable by imprisonment. I sincerely doubt the dealer would be THAT stupid!

Formula 350

Kenny...

At least in Texas there is another lien.. a mechanics lien... if a mecanic does work on your car and you do not pay, he can reposses your car for the payment..

They tried to do this with my brother in law over a disputed bill... they did work he did not ask and he was challenging the bill with the credit card company...

But, this might be considered a 'consentual' lien since you asked to have your car fixed..