jhan1102

Hi guys, (Merry Christmas!)

I was looking at the Type-S vs. 05' TL. Why doesn't the new TL's full torque kick in at lower RPM like Type-S?

Just to recap, Type-S torque kicks in at 3500 rpm.

Is there a good reason for having it up in 5000 RPM?

I've seen some place that at 270hp@6200, the torque drop from 238@5000 to 210 beyond 5000 rpm.


Any idea??

cpurick

I really don't think it's a matter of "moving" the peak torque RPM, as much as it's a matter of increasing torque at different RPMs until peak torque just happens to occur at a higher speed.

When you improve an engine's ability to breathe, the gains will happen at higher RPMs.

The only real question would be if the torque actually *decreased* for a given RPM. And there's really not enough information in those figures for us to know if that's actually happened.

For all we know, the torque at 3500 is unchanged, and intake improvements have simply added torque at higher RPMs where a bottleneck used to exist.

@cUr@-TL

oh well, whatever the numbers are, the TL needs more torque, and at lower RPM

EmuMessenger

Horsepower sells cars and torque moves them.

Kind of like the football analogy...

Offense sells tickets and defense wins Super Bowls!

Nodoze2004

Wholeheartedly agree!! It is fun to drive, but is a slug at any rpm lower than 4000!!

cvajs

perhaps, but i'd rather be the one passing at the finish line than to be the one passed.

want more torque? install numerically higher gears (not so easy on TL).

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

People who whine so much about Honda engines not having enough torque need to stop buying Honda cars.

wavshrdr

Don't forget that the 5AT pull harder below 4K rpm than the 6MT. You can credit that due to the torque multiplication you get with the AT tranny vs. the MT. I have a 5AT and I can't say it is a dog below 4K and I have some very quick cars. It definitely pulls harder above 4K but I noticed it pulled harder than the 6MT below 4K.

I've seen dyno plots of the TL and it is pretty flat from 2700 to 4700 and then climbs a bit to 5K and then definitely falls way off by 6800. It is making less torque at 6700 rpm than at 1700!!!! At 1700 it is about equal with 5800 and that is about 85% of peak.

MADCAT

Agreed. If you want gobs of torque. Go buy a pickup.
or a diesel powered car.

Xpditor

... or a Nissan Maxima/Altima

They have a ton of low-end grunt, ragged and noisy approaching obscene. Hang on tight to the steering wheel. Feels good in the lower abdomen but that car with the smooth, low rumble pulling ahead of you is a TL 3.2.

2004Tru3Lov3

AMEN!!!

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

well this is how i see it; acura/honda make high revving motors that hav decent torque but hav more horse to use at the higher rpm. look at the s2000 or rsx; redline is i think 8000 for the s2000 and round 7500 for the rsx.... and i also agree;

Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
People who whine so much about Honda engines not having enough torque need to stop buying Honda cars.

tlram

90% of TL's torque is available from 2500 rpm. Thats plenty for me.

shineynitelite

[QUOTE=Acuraluvr]well this is how i see it; acura/honda make high revving motors that hav decent torque but hav more horse to use at the higher rpm. look at the s2000 or rsx; redline is i think 8000 for the s2000 and round 7500 for the rsx.... and i also agree [QUOTE]

you just figured that out that honda aims for high k, ever heard of vtec???

shineynitelite

s2k redlines at 9k, its been really clear that honda has aimed towards higher rpm ever since vtec was put into production vehicles.... you dont need any more low end torque, while racing the only time you will be under 4000-4500 is at the start, and even then isnt tha big of deal because you arnt in that zone at all cuz you should be spinning close to the redline

Road Rage

Not true; your analogy is too simplistic, suggesting an either/or. HP and torque are mathematically related. One cannot separate one from the other in terms of performance. Formula 1 cars have little torque, and tremendous HP - their advanced gearing and light weight allow their rate of work to provide phenomenal performance. That is what HP is - rate of work. The higher the rate of work, the higher the performance potential. RPM of course figure into the mix - a wide power bandwidth allows an S2000 with only 150 lb/ft of torque to out accelerate a Camaro torque monster. Again, rate of work is the key concept.

We all know that a Formula 1 car cannot pull a trailer, but can a Kenworth do a quarter in 14 seconds? Of course not.

Here is an easy to understand layman's example. If torque were the thing, Schwarznegger would win the Tour de France - but Lance does because he delivers the highest rate of work.

Ken1997TL

Want torque?

Go buy a diesel Accord.

2K2SilverTL-S

Yea, the Type S motor is stronger down low than the 04/05 motor. I actually like the Type S motor better than the one in my 04 TL just because its a "meaner" engine all around. It more sonorous in VTEC as well. However, the 04 motor is also a gem, but its more fluid and smooth in the way it goes about its buisness.

I'm more upset with Acura for lowering the redline on the 04/05 motor from the Type S motor. I can take my Type S to 7100 RPMs without hitting the rev limmiter, but the one on my 04 kicks in almost right away after 6800 RPMs. It seems like I can't avoid hitting the rev limmiter in my 04 when I start driving aggressivly.

jhan1102

ummmm... what do you mean 90%?


Sorry guy for starting up another stupid thread. Some of the answers here are pretty helpful to understand. So, are you guys saying that TL is much faster in upper RPM/freeway battle?

I was just little lost when the TL tech told me that the TL isn’t fast as the G35, and the G35 will blow the TL’s in freeway runs. But I thought Honda was meant for upper RPM power band?

Another thing is, 270@6200 to redline@6800 isn’t that much of a difference. It hits so fast that there is not much of RPM range to use full 270 hp. Perfect driving rang will be from 180@4000-220@5000 rpm range.

So, I guess if I want full TL’s power, I should stay in upper RPM in 3rd gear?

pettydw

By in large, the way most modern passenger car engines are designed (stroke/bore ratios similar), maximum torque is proportional to displacement. The Maxima's 3.5L engine has more torque due to this reason.

HP is quite a bit different, being more related to how fast you can spin the engine and still have it breathe well. This is where Honda, BMW, and Ferrari excel, though I cannot justify the big bucks for the later two.

sufall96

I disagree! A lot of people on here that complain about the torque in Honda engines love their cars. We just wish we could some of the same performace set ups that are in other makes(BMW, Benz, Lexus, Infiniti, ect) put into a Honda product. I don't see anything wrong with that. Acura/Honda is suppose to be from a sporty/racing background. So don't half step with it go all out! Live up to what you say you are.

sufall96

I don't know about everyone else TL(04/05) on here but after about 3000 miles or so my car just opened up. When I first bought the car I said to myself my 03 type s engine was stronger than this but would never say that now. At almost any rpm under 110 mph the car pulls pretty hard. But I would say between 4000 and 6800 it pulls the hardest.

04AcuraTL

i think im wrong..but isnt it cuz v tec doesnt kick in till 5000RPM??????? that we get our max torque..

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

I think I just saw something to this in the RL forum (which is dead). WHo buys Hondas for torque? Its for high-revving fun right? Why complain, when it should not be expected. The TL makes a lot of HP and is a fast accelerating car.

sufall96

True that (for the TL). But not when applied to 4000 lb car. Kind of sluggish on the low end. Feels like the motor is straining.

2K2SilverTL-S

Yea, this 04 motor is definitely taking more time than my Type S motor to break in. I posted a message a while ago about how much stronger the 04 motor gets with the more miles (particularly hard ones) that I put on my 04. Even with 6800 miles on my 04, it still feels like its getting stronger. Im hoping to be able to say that my 04 is stronger than my Type S one day, but it still hasn't happened yet.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Yes, I agree. I also know Acura has no intentions of battlling the bigger companies head on, which is cool. They have nice V-6s and nice engines for such a limited lineup. I say let Acura keep going after niches and keep up their good streak.

JetJock

sufall96...I just noticed exactly the same thing with my '04TL. I had a 2002TLS, and when I got the '04 6mt, I wasn't impressed with the extra 10hp in the new car. Suddenly, almost overnight, when I got over 3000 miles, the engine kinda came alive. It was a sudden and dramatic effect that was quite obvious to everyone.

sufall96

Aquineas

My TL engine finally felt broken in at 10K miles.

r10apple

The new TL makes more torgue from a lower point in the rpm band than the '02-'03 TLS. My dyno plot shows torque climbing only at 3k rpms before remaining flat when it begins to actually fall from a peak at about 5600rpm. The hp peak is another thing: steadily climbing to 6800 rpms before a slight fall by 7100rpms. From running new TL's of the manual and auto variety, and driving them both, they have more available torque at a lower rpm than the older car.

There is a new TL dyno at the temple of vtec. I was there the morning they did that car, mine and scalberts...

And like othes have said--Hondas are meant to be wound up to the redline not shifting at 5k rpms...

Jirzlee

iTrader: (1)

YES!! Couldn't agree more.

Road Rage

Riggghhhttt!! Jetta 1.8 diesel's are just the hottest things on 4 wheels. The first 50 feet feel like a HEMI. Then the Dickensian coughing begins.

wavshrdr

Road Rage- I think you have the VW product line mixed up. The 1.8 is a turbo gas motor. The 1.9 TDI is the turbo diesel. Don't be so quick to dismiss the diesel anyway. I have one of the 1.9 TDI motors and it makes far more torque at the wheels than either the TL, RL or NSX does. It doesn't cough (or wheeze) either. It'll will easily beat a 6MT TL in the 1/4 mile as well. Diesels have a lot of potential and you should really try driving a diesel sports car. It is not an oxymoron.

I'd still like to see the TL with more torque no matter where it comes from and more of it at a lower RPM. It'd make a good car that much better.

Jirzlee

iTrader: (1)

What do you run in the 1/4 with the TDI? Is it modified and what numbers does it put out tq/hp?

JLim

LOL... 1.9L TDI can beat a TL in the 1/4???? HAHAHAHHAAH
TL has more HP and more torque than the 1.9L TDI. LOL.


Performance -MSN Autos 2004 Volkswagon Jetta TDI
...................................0-60...........1/4.............1/4 speed.........Braking
.................................. (sec).........(sec).............(mph)............. ..(ft.)
Jetta TDI -1.9L..............10.50..........17.94............ 77.7.................139



Now if you compare that to the TL...

Performance -MSN Autos 2005 Acura TL
...................................0-60...........1/4.............1/4 speed.........Braking
.................................. (sec).........(sec).............(mph)............. ..(ft.)
Acura 3.2 TL 6M..............6.74..........14.98............97. 70.................114



The TL will easily beat a Jetta 1.9L TDI. LOL

samkws

Torque is KING

try the E320 CDI, i think it will have a gd match vs the TL

369lb of torque

wavshrdr

JLim - there appears to be a missing post. I posted a follow up post to Jirzlee asking about my TDI. It is a Bettle and not a Jetta. It makes far more torque than a TL. On a dyno it has put down over 300 lb/ft of torque at the wheels which is more torque at the wheels than the TL starts with at the crank. That is without it running propane.

All it took was a little parts bin swapping out of the Euro VW part's bins combined with other US VW parts. My TDI bug will easily pull my TL with no problem. It may not have a ton of HP as few diesels due bu the stock HP was 90 at the crank and my TDI dyno'd 150+ at the wheels. Torque to weight ratio gives you acceleration and HP combined with drag gives you top speed.

wavshrdr

I seriously looked at buying one of the these as I totally appreciate diesels. This car with a chip in it is monster. Disable the traction control on it and it smokes the tires all the way through first and well on into second without a chip. I love E320 CDI but want an AWD version. Fast car and great mileage too.

I had a rental one of these in Europe and it would cruise all day at 230-240kph with no issues. Effortless passing up steep passes in the Alps. Amazing car to drive on a daily basis but driving one in the snow was not a real joy as the traction control was engaged almost continuously due to the torque. It hits at a very low RPM like my TDI.

samkws

do you get worse mileage after you upgraded the power?

or still the same? how much you have spent on modding your TDI?

that's a nice car if you got such power