The TL uses premium fuel because:
07-10-2005, 05:44 PM
#41
Instructor
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Burbank, California
Age: 48
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
I'm not a simpleton when it comes to business/management/marketing. I do understand how marketing works, and being where I am from, I know exactly how "image is everything", although I despise that concept.
Yes, they work to reduce production costs, therefore improving profits. This is, in part, in an effort to offer the car to the consumers at the lowest cost possible. But they aren't going to turn around and say "oh, this car only requires premium; it costs more to own this car." To me, that negates the effort to reduce production costs which usually has the goal of offering the product to the consumer at the lowest price possible.
Since when is pumping premium at the gas station the cool thing? Since when does the concept of "image is everything" factor into pumping gas? Are people THAT shallow? "Oh, my car requires premium, but yours only runs on regular. My car's better, so I'm better than you."
This is how Mercedes Benz used to R&D their vehicles, and they failed. "Here are the specs to which you must build this car, at or under this cost, to achieve these sales, and to fit this image and the demographic. The fact that world's one of the most renown car companies tried this method, failed, and realized their mistake, therefore drastically restructuring their R&D process says something.
Well, I just refuse to believe that people are so shallow to the point that car companies must unnecessarily require premium to sell cars.
Like I said before, run 87 in your car. Log the fuel mileage, and the knock sensor readings. End of story. Engineers won this round, not the marketing executives.
Yes, they work to reduce production costs, therefore improving profits. This is, in part, in an effort to offer the car to the consumers at the lowest cost possible. But they aren't going to turn around and say "oh, this car only requires premium; it costs more to own this car." To me, that negates the effort to reduce production costs which usually has the goal of offering the product to the consumer at the lowest price possible.
Since when is pumping premium at the gas station the cool thing? Since when does the concept of "image is everything" factor into pumping gas? Are people THAT shallow? "Oh, my car requires premium, but yours only runs on regular. My car's better, so I'm better than you."
This is how Mercedes Benz used to R&D their vehicles, and they failed. "Here are the specs to which you must build this car, at or under this cost, to achieve these sales, and to fit this image and the demographic. The fact that world's one of the most renown car companies tried this method, failed, and realized their mistake, therefore drastically restructuring their R&D process says something.
Well, I just refuse to believe that people are so shallow to the point that car companies must unnecessarily require premium to sell cars.
Like I said before, run 87 in your car. Log the fuel mileage, and the knock sensor readings. End of story. Engineers won this round, not the marketing executives.
...I agree. And your ( image is everything/pumping premium at the gas station is cool ) comment was hilarious and to the point...LOL!
07-10-2005, 06:11 PM
#42
6th Gear
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
11:1 compression ratio explains it all. The higher the compression ratio, the more octane required. You need a fuel that burns hotter.
The TL has a higher compression ratio than all but a few of the muscle cars of the mid 60's through the early 70's.
The TL has a higher compression ratio than all but a few of the muscle cars of the mid 60's through the early 70's.
07-10-2005, 07:04 PM
#43
Walk the walk
Thread Starter
For the die hard technocrats:
Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!
10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up.
this should be good for a few more pages of rant.
Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!
10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up.
this should be good for a few more pages of rant.
07-10-2005, 07:22 PM
#44
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by Road Rage
Really some hilarious and childish posts in this thread. All sorts of intircate theories based on nothing but speculation.
I think Pure Adrenaline is on the right track. Most every decision about cars these days is market-driven.
IMO, the TL's engine is rated for premium because it provides the most HP, and that is what all of you look for in this car's price category, right? The difference in power between the TL on 91 octane and the TL on 89 orr 87 octane fuel is countable on the fingers of your hands. This is not blowing smoke - I have eng'g reports from Honda on the NSX, which showed dyno power output for 87, 89, and 91 octane. HP diffs were in the single digits. Torque was slightly more affected, which makes sense given that more spark advance leads to higher cylinder pressures, which changes as RPM rise, to the point where peak power is measured.
The recommendation may also be an attempt to ensure that the best fuels are used - what the industry calls "Top Tier" fuels. Contrary to what many have posted here, all gasoline is not the same, and the fuel additives, both commercial and aftermarket, are further, NOT THE SAME. Some additives (the cheapies - see my post on the ones that are mostly kerosene) can actually leave a coating on the intake valves and injector pintles! And while all grades of fuel get detergent additives, it is not always the case in equal amounts, or not even the same ones. The best add pack always ends up in the premium product, at least initially.
Brand marketing for fuel coincidentally follows the same strategy in this regard as Proctor and Gamble uses for Tide - it always applies its best technology to its premium brand, and then distributes the same technology to lesser brands like Cheer. That "color booster" that they tout in Cheer has been in Tide for months.
"Top Tier" fuels (there are about 8) are very likely to be named by mfrs in a very short time, as warranty claims for all sorts of fuel-related issues increase. High alcohol content from ethanols and other emissions-based fuels often leave gummy residues as they boil off after shut down. And/or they can leave hard deposits on the intake vales and the piston crowns - on zero onterference engines, this can actually lead to piston slapping and bending of the intake valves during the compression stroke!
I doubt the mfrs will insist that the woners use Top Tier fuels, because of all the crap they would take from EPA, consumer groups, Sen. Schirmer types, and the rest - but I think the message will get out.
Some of the TT fuels? Chevron, Texaco, BP Amoco, Shell are good bets. They use advanced additives in reasonably good amounts.
I still recommend a top quality fuel additive, used at oil change time, or in titrated form, for every tankful. I posted on these a long time ago:
Techron
Red Line SI-1 and SI-2
Pennzoil Regane
Fuel Control
I prefer the every tankful, continuous cleaning approach - I use the small Red Line product - that way, dirt, gum, and other crud does not get a chance to gain a foothold. The deposits left by many "clean fuels" highly oxygenated with alcohols are not easy to remove - often, even a strong cleaner does not work, and a really bad case of the crud can require expensive cylinder head work, in the $1k and up range! My advice is to do everything you can to avoid the problem in the first place.
I think Pure Adrenaline is on the right track. Most every decision about cars these days is market-driven.
IMO, the TL's engine is rated for premium because it provides the most HP, and that is what all of you look for in this car's price category, right? The difference in power between the TL on 91 octane and the TL on 89 orr 87 octane fuel is countable on the fingers of your hands. This is not blowing smoke - I have eng'g reports from Honda on the NSX, which showed dyno power output for 87, 89, and 91 octane. HP diffs were in the single digits. Torque was slightly more affected, which makes sense given that more spark advance leads to higher cylinder pressures, which changes as RPM rise, to the point where peak power is measured.
The recommendation may also be an attempt to ensure that the best fuels are used - what the industry calls "Top Tier" fuels. Contrary to what many have posted here, all gasoline is not the same, and the fuel additives, both commercial and aftermarket, are further, NOT THE SAME. Some additives (the cheapies - see my post on the ones that are mostly kerosene) can actually leave a coating on the intake valves and injector pintles! And while all grades of fuel get detergent additives, it is not always the case in equal amounts, or not even the same ones. The best add pack always ends up in the premium product, at least initially.
Brand marketing for fuel coincidentally follows the same strategy in this regard as Proctor and Gamble uses for Tide - it always applies its best technology to its premium brand, and then distributes the same technology to lesser brands like Cheer. That "color booster" that they tout in Cheer has been in Tide for months.
"Top Tier" fuels (there are about 8) are very likely to be named by mfrs in a very short time, as warranty claims for all sorts of fuel-related issues increase. High alcohol content from ethanols and other emissions-based fuels often leave gummy residues as they boil off after shut down. And/or they can leave hard deposits on the intake vales and the piston crowns - on zero onterference engines, this can actually lead to piston slapping and bending of the intake valves during the compression stroke!
I doubt the mfrs will insist that the woners use Top Tier fuels, because of all the crap they would take from EPA, consumer groups, Sen. Schirmer types, and the rest - but I think the message will get out.
Some of the TT fuels? Chevron, Texaco, BP Amoco, Shell are good bets. They use advanced additives in reasonably good amounts.
I still recommend a top quality fuel additive, used at oil change time, or in titrated form, for every tankful. I posted on these a long time ago:
Techron
Red Line SI-1 and SI-2
Pennzoil Regane
Fuel Control
I prefer the every tankful, continuous cleaning approach - I use the small Red Line product - that way, dirt, gum, and other crud does not get a chance to gain a foothold. The deposits left by many "clean fuels" highly oxygenated with alcohols are not easy to remove - often, even a strong cleaner does not work, and a really bad case of the crud can require expensive cylinder head work, in the $1k and up range! My advice is to do everything you can to avoid the problem in the first place.
These cars were tuned using premium fuel for optimum power, fuel economy, efficiency and cleanliness. I am not sacrificing any of that for the $2 a fillup or ~$100 a year I would save at the pump. I wont even get into what savings would be if your fuel economy is affected by using the lower grade.
I didnt cheap out on my car, and Im not going to cheap out on its upkeep, and maintenance. I use high quality replacement parts, oil, etc. I wont do any less when it comes to the fuel.
07-10-2005, 08:25 PM
#45
AZ Community Team
Two decades ago Porsche did a excellent technical paper that sorta proved to their point that high octane fuel was cheaper (yes cheaper to operate!) in their engines. This was quite a while ago but the paper showed how a higher compression engine with a Bosch Montronic engine management system could provide better overall gas mileage in Euro-configuration engines.
This took into account the spark advance running at optimum for the premium fueled case and the reduction of spark advance (due to the piezo sensor in the blobk) detecting pre-ignitin detonation causing reduced ignition advance. The higher octane provided better overall fuel economy.
Again remember this was for just one particular case, being a 16 valve 2.5L 944S.
This thread has turned into rant and rave but in this subject there is no clear answer so I'll leave it at that.
This took into account the spark advance running at optimum for the premium fueled case and the reduction of spark advance (due to the piezo sensor in the blobk) detecting pre-ignitin detonation causing reduced ignition advance. The higher octane provided better overall fuel economy.
Again remember this was for just one particular case, being a 16 valve 2.5L 944S.
This thread has turned into rant and rave but in this subject there is no clear answer so I'll leave it at that.
07-10-2005, 08:50 PM
#46
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
This thread has turned into rant and rave but in this subject there is no clear answer so I'll leave it at that.
Actually there is a clear answer but not everyone seems to subscribe to it.
07-10-2005, 10:37 PM
#48
Originally Posted by Shoot2Thrill
For the die hard technocrats:
Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!
10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up.
this should be good for a few more pages of rant.
Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!
10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up.
this should be good for a few more pages of rant.
Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate.
Otherwise, I'm done here. Thanks for tuning in, folks!
07-10-2005, 11:54 PM
#49
Registered Abuser of VTEC
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
First you calculated horsepower solely by extrapolating displacement figures. Now you are doing it with compression ratios.
Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate.
Otherwise, I'm done here. Thanks for tuning in, folks!
Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate.
Otherwise, I'm done here. Thanks for tuning in, folks!
I don't claim to know very much and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason that 91 is required (even in my first gen 2.5TL with a CR of 9.8:1 (I think?)), is because of, IN PART, ignition timing. More advanced timing = more horsepower and marginally more torque. I believe that TOV (vtec.net), did a dyno of a 7th gen Accord V6 with 87 octane and 91 octane, and they discovered that the Accord will advance ignition timing to accomodate the higher octane, resulting in a horsepower jump of roughly 10hp. Obviously there is a limit on how far the timing can be advanced though. It's not like if you put 104 octane in that you'd see any benefits. My guess is that the benefits drop off exponentially after 93 or 95 octane. (again that's for the particular case of the J30A4)
I also wonder...if a car is specifically tuned for 91 octane, is the redline allowed to be higher than if it's tuned to 87 octane? Or is it just that mechanical stress tolerances are the sole limit on the redline?
Oh and another reason Honda engines in Honda cars are tuned for 87 octane...people who buy Civics (and to a lesser extent, Accords), Odyssys, and fuel sipping CRV's and Insights, are generally averse to paying higher prices for gas just because they probably were on a small budget in the first place. If the "plebian" makes start tuning engines for 91 octane, there would be an uproar! But I don't think too many people would get upset if their new BMW suddenly required 87 octane!
07-11-2005, 02:44 AM
#50
Instructor
Premium Vs Regular Fuel Debate-Short Version..Stay Tune for more peeps
Originally Posted by Shoot2Thrill
For the die hard technocrats:
Shoot2Thrill said "Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!"
Interesting. I checked out the specs at Toyota. I can't confirm the fact that is uses regular or premium fuel, that part remains uncertain at the moment. I can verify for you that the compression ratios specs and figures are true.
Here they are:
Engine: 2AZ-FE
2.4 Litre 4-Cylinder
Double Overhead Cam 16-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Aluminum Alloy Block
Balance Shafts
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Hood Strut
Compression Ratio - 9.6:1
Horsepower (kW) - 160 (119) @ 5700 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 163 lb.ft. (221) @ 4000 rpm
Engine: 1MZ-FE
3.0 Litre Aluminum Alloy V6
Double Overhead Cam 24-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Variable Induction System
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Compression Ratio - 10.5:1
Horsepower (kW) - 210 (156) @ 5800 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 220 lb.ft. (298) @ 4400 rpm
Engine: 3MZ-FE
3.3 Litre Aluminum Alloy V6
Double Overhead Cam 24-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Acoustic Control Induction
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Compression Ratio - 10.8:1
Horsepower (kW) - 225 (168) @ 5600 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 240 lb.ft. (325) @ 3600 rpm
Shoot2Thrill said "10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up."
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. These are two different cars created by different automotive engineers. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Toyota Camry (assume 2005 model) 10.8:1 compression ratio
2005 Acura TL 11:1 compression ratio
These are mere facts only. Can't do comparison. It's an invalid point.
Shoot2Thrill said "this should be good for a few more pages of rant."
Sorry buddy, don't have a long of time for small talk. No offense but maybe you should take this discussion in the car talk section of the forum. I am here to provide useful assistance to other TL owners.
Correction my dear Pure Adrenaline or shall we say Pure Insanity or Pure Insatiable. Shoot2Thrill was merely quoting the compression ratio for a Toyota Camry (Assuming 2005 year model) 3.3L V6 10.8:1 and saying it utilizes regular fuel instead of using premium unleaded. Correct me if I am wrong there Shoot2Thrill with the facts please. It's generally understood that cars with compression ratios of 10:1 or more are considered high compression motors and will generally need premium fuel to function optimally. This I emphasize is a general rule of thumb and it is not written in stone. TL peeps, please correct me on this assumption if I am wrong. The Toyota Camry with the 3.3L V6 has a compression ratio of 10.8:1 and should be a high compression ratio motor which requires premium fuel to optimize the car's motor performance but Shoot2Thrill is claiming that it only requires regular 87 octane fuel to run the motor at a optimum level.
Pure Adrenaline says "Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate."
The people in this forum are here to learn everything about the Acura TL and more about automobiles. While some are argumentative, rude and arrogant, it is necessary to ask questions to learn and become an educated TL car enthusiast. Some peeps appear to want to debate about everything but asking and answer questions is part of the learning process. The people in this TL forum site have answered most if not all of my questions about the TL. I just don't understand why you have such a difficult time answering peeps questions?
For the die hard technocrats:
Shoot2Thrill said "Toyota Camry 3.3L V6 10.8:1 - Regular Fuel called for!"
Interesting. I checked out the specs at Toyota. I can't confirm the fact that is uses regular or premium fuel, that part remains uncertain at the moment. I can verify for you that the compression ratios specs and figures are true.
Here they are:
Engine: 2AZ-FE
2.4 Litre 4-Cylinder
Double Overhead Cam 16-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Aluminum Alloy Block
Balance Shafts
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Hood Strut
Compression Ratio - 9.6:1
Horsepower (kW) - 160 (119) @ 5700 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 163 lb.ft. (221) @ 4000 rpm
Engine: 1MZ-FE
3.0 Litre Aluminum Alloy V6
Double Overhead Cam 24-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Variable Induction System
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Compression Ratio - 10.5:1
Horsepower (kW) - 210 (156) @ 5800 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 220 lb.ft. (298) @ 4400 rpm
Engine: 3MZ-FE
3.3 Litre Aluminum Alloy V6
Double Overhead Cam 24-Valve
VVT-i
Sequential Multiport Electronic Fuel Injection
Acoustic Control Induction
Stainless Steel Exhaust System
Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle [ULEV]
Compression Ratio - 10.8:1
Horsepower (kW) - 225 (168) @ 5600 rpm
Torque (N.m) - 240 lb.ft. (325) @ 3600 rpm
Shoot2Thrill said "10.8 rounded up = 11 OMG what if Acura rounded up."
I don't understand the point you are trying to make. These are two different cars created by different automotive engineers. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Toyota Camry (assume 2005 model) 10.8:1 compression ratio
2005 Acura TL 11:1 compression ratio
These are mere facts only. Can't do comparison. It's an invalid point.
Shoot2Thrill said "this should be good for a few more pages of rant."
Sorry buddy, don't have a long of time for small talk. No offense but maybe you should take this discussion in the car talk section of the forum. I am here to provide useful assistance to other TL owners.
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
First you calculated horsepower solely by extrapolating displacement figures. Now you are doing it with compression ratios.
Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate.
Otherwise, I'm done here. Thanks for tuning in, folks!
Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate.
Otherwise, I'm done here. Thanks for tuning in, folks!
Pure Adrenaline says "Learn someting about internal combustion engines, be prepared to have an educated argument, then come back for a debate."
The people in this forum are here to learn everything about the Acura TL and more about automobiles. While some are argumentative, rude and arrogant, it is necessary to ask questions to learn and become an educated TL car enthusiast. Some peeps appear to want to debate about everything but asking and answer questions is part of the learning process. The people in this TL forum site have answered most if not all of my questions about the TL. I just don't understand why you have such a difficult time answering peeps questions?
07-11-2005, 03:06 AM
#51
Instructor
Originally Posted by Shoot2Thrill
Expect to pay premium fuel costs for the luxury/sports ride. Expensive replacement parts will also be reflected with a premium priced vehicles.
Perception like that is the point!
Perception like that is the point!
07-11-2005, 07:27 AM
#52
wow lots of opinions... Jane you ignorant slut!!...
A larger displacement will mean some retooling... It was easy to get the 3.2 to kick out 225 ponies and 216 ft pounds of torque with a 9.8:1 compression ratio. Even then they said premium is recommended. Then came the 260 hp 232 torque motor with dual stage intake and 10.5:1 ratio. And of course what we have today which makes it easy.. same design basically, just changing the cam, ECU, and compression ratio to 11:1. I ran the middle grade in my 99 TL and did not notice a problem with it at all. I did not test fate with the 01 CL S model and used 93.
Yes, I agree large displacement engines provide more torque without the need for increased compression etc. If they put the 3.5 in the tl then they would have the same performance without the engine working harder or having to have higher compression. Maybe you would save 10% a gallon at the pumps buying regular fuel, but you have to figure out how the configuration would fair with the 3.5. Some added weight but not much. Anyone who had a 99 tl and moved up to the 01 CL S model like I noticed a difference.
Honda probably does not want to do what nissan has done which is create about 5 versions of the 3.5 motor. I have not done my homework to see if the altima version of the motor has a different compression ratio, but it make sense that it would not since that would require more variations in the motor. It is easier to control how much power it makes with an ECU or throttle body.
Maybe they should create a 4.0 litre engine like toyota and be done with it.. My 4 runner has a 4.0 and it runs on regular gas. It puts out 245 ponies and 282 ft pounds of torque at 3800. It has a 10:1 compression ratio. Sure it does not spin up to the higher RPMs that the TL might... but... with 282ft pounds at 3800 the tl would be screaming down the street...
A larger displacement will mean some retooling... It was easy to get the 3.2 to kick out 225 ponies and 216 ft pounds of torque with a 9.8:1 compression ratio. Even then they said premium is recommended. Then came the 260 hp 232 torque motor with dual stage intake and 10.5:1 ratio. And of course what we have today which makes it easy.. same design basically, just changing the cam, ECU, and compression ratio to 11:1. I ran the middle grade in my 99 TL and did not notice a problem with it at all. I did not test fate with the 01 CL S model and used 93.
Yes, I agree large displacement engines provide more torque without the need for increased compression etc. If they put the 3.5 in the tl then they would have the same performance without the engine working harder or having to have higher compression. Maybe you would save 10% a gallon at the pumps buying regular fuel, but you have to figure out how the configuration would fair with the 3.5. Some added weight but not much. Anyone who had a 99 tl and moved up to the 01 CL S model like I noticed a difference.
Honda probably does not want to do what nissan has done which is create about 5 versions of the 3.5 motor. I have not done my homework to see if the altima version of the motor has a different compression ratio, but it make sense that it would not since that would require more variations in the motor. It is easier to control how much power it makes with an ECU or throttle body.
Maybe they should create a 4.0 litre engine like toyota and be done with it.. My 4 runner has a 4.0 and it runs on regular gas. It puts out 245 ponies and 282 ft pounds of torque at 3800. It has a 10:1 compression ratio. Sure it does not spin up to the higher RPMs that the TL might... but... with 282ft pounds at 3800 the tl would be screaming down the street...
07-11-2005, 10:55 AM
#53
Originally Posted by 2003 Acura TLS260-Silver
The people in this forum are here to learn everything about the Acura TL and more about automobiles. While some are argumentative, rude and arrogant, it is necessary to ask questions to learn and become an educated TL car enthusiast. Some peeps appear to want to debate about everything but asking and answer questions is part of the learning process. The people in this TL forum site have answered most if not all of my questions about the TL. I just don't understand why you have such a difficult time answering peeps questions?
Do a search for my user name. I help out people very nicely very often, especially in the 2nd generation section. But I don't respond too well when someone calls me an asshole out of nowhere. I've kept it civilized despite your name-calling, so don't even talk to me about being rude.
It's threads like these where people who don't know shit about anything keep arguing and won't back down. Their purpose of posting in threads like this is not to ask specific questions and learn; they are just dicking around.
It's evident in statements such as "This should be good for another few pages of rant."
Sorry, but when people REALLY want to learn about something, they specifically ask. And I always try to help to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunately, this thread just isn't that. And I find it funny that despite providing all the data and information, I say one time that I'm done here, and you call me out for "not helping people." Sorry, but at least I don't go around calling people names unprovoked, and at least I provide facts and data for a debate. Last time I checked, you were the one questioning my father for using regular fuel when his car only required regular fuel. So don't even talk to me about "wanting to debate about everything", etc. You're the one picking fight over nothing, not to mention you were wrong.
07-11-2005, 11:22 AM
#55
Originally Posted by TheWhippingBoy
why doesn't one of you just try running their tl with regular fuel to see how it goes?
But these aren't your everyday driving cars. Mine would relate better to those, and like I said, gas mileage went down, and the engine just felt like shit.
And this was on 91 octane, too. I don't want to try 87 in my car.
EDIT -- where in Chicago are you from? There's a BBQ meet at the end of this month in Carol Stream, if you're interested in coming.
07-11-2005, 11:27 AM
#56
Intermediate
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Age: 46
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Feel free to do whatever you want to your TL, its your car.
The combination of dynamic compression ratio and ignition timing dictate what grade of fuel you need in your car. Nothing more, nothing less. Some car equiped with knock sensor let you use lower grade fuel, by retarding the timing when it hear knocks. While you can keep driving like this you have lower margin of safety, especially if you stomp on the gas in a hot summer day all the time.
If you see an NA engine base ignition map from any turbo tuning site, you will notice that the timeing under idle or low load (high vacuum) is way higher than the base ignition on your car. Why? The dynamic compression is way lower under low load, and high when you are running in the powerband due to intake/exhaust cam overlap.
Another thing about TL's engine ability to handle higher compression and more advanced timing is the use of drive by wire. In a drive by cable throttle system, you have to take into consideration of how people suddently stomp on gas from idle or let go of gas from lead foot. This cause a sudden rich/lean scenario that the O2 sensor and ECU cannot compensate in time, and can cause knock. It is also a method many mechanic uses to check if your O2 sensor is still good. Drive by wire in TL prevent this by correctly match up the throttle, fuel, and timing and keep it in good AFR constantly, making it safer for higher compression.
For more info I recommend TeamIntegra.net's Michael Delany's Tech Corner, it has a few very good article about dynamic compression and engine design.
No more tomato throwing or name calling, ok?
The combination of dynamic compression ratio and ignition timing dictate what grade of fuel you need in your car. Nothing more, nothing less. Some car equiped with knock sensor let you use lower grade fuel, by retarding the timing when it hear knocks. While you can keep driving like this you have lower margin of safety, especially if you stomp on the gas in a hot summer day all the time.
If you see an NA engine base ignition map from any turbo tuning site, you will notice that the timeing under idle or low load (high vacuum) is way higher than the base ignition on your car. Why? The dynamic compression is way lower under low load, and high when you are running in the powerband due to intake/exhaust cam overlap.
Another thing about TL's engine ability to handle higher compression and more advanced timing is the use of drive by wire. In a drive by cable throttle system, you have to take into consideration of how people suddently stomp on gas from idle or let go of gas from lead foot. This cause a sudden rich/lean scenario that the O2 sensor and ECU cannot compensate in time, and can cause knock. It is also a method many mechanic uses to check if your O2 sensor is still good. Drive by wire in TL prevent this by correctly match up the throttle, fuel, and timing and keep it in good AFR constantly, making it safer for higher compression.
For more info I recommend TeamIntegra.net's Michael Delany's Tech Corner, it has a few very good article about dynamic compression and engine design.
No more tomato throwing or name calling, ok?
07-11-2005, 02:50 PM
#57
Racer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MR1
1. For model year 2002 and 2003 perhaps longer the Honda Pilot specified Regular and the Acura MDX specified Premium for the same 3.5L engine with the same quoted horsepower.
2
2
interesting. does the v6 accord require premium too?
07-12-2005, 03:30 AM
#58
Instructor
Always follow the manufacture's fuel recommendations until the warranty is expired.
Originally Posted by TheWhippingBoy
why doesn't one of you just try running their tl with regular fuel to see how it goes?
Been there, done that.
I always follow the manufacture's fuel recommendations. Read the Acura manual from begining to end many times over for the sake of being knowledgeable and to keep the car running like new. I have asked numerous Acura mechanics questions and other TL owners (2nd Gen and 3rd Gen) regarding the Acura TL to become well verse in becoming a knowledgeable TL owner. Basically I love this car to death.
Here are the facts:
Acura recommends running a minimal 91 octane rated fuel. That means you can run 91 premium and higher. Use of a lower octane gasoline ( Regular unleaded with an octane rating of 87) can cause occasional, metallic knocking noises in the engine and will result in decrease engine performance.They recommend gasolines containing detergent additives that help prevent fuel system and engine deposits.
Using gasoline containing lead will damage your car's emissions controls and this will contribute to air pollution
Gasolines containing an octane-enhancing additive called MMT will damage your emission control sytem, performance may deteriorate and the Malfunction Indicator Lamp will be activated.
I have tried using regular unleaded with 87 octane, no difference at slow speeds because the ECU adjusts the timing by retarding it. At high speeds, there is a decrease in acceleration performance. Occasional use of 87 octane gas will not be detrimental but in order to optimize vehicle engine performance, you should use at least 91 octane or higher ( depending on your budget)
You can put whatever gas you want but I am following Acura's recommendation for the sake of maintaining my investment and to uphold the Acura warranty.
07-12-2005, 03:55 AM
#59
Instructor
Good information PandaBear
Originally Posted by PandaBear
Feel free to do whatever you want to your TL, its your car.
The combination of dynamic compression ratio and ignition timing dictate what grade of fuel you need in your car. Nothing more, nothing less. Some car equiped with knock sensor let you use lower grade fuel, by retarding the timing when it hear knocks. While you can keep driving like this you have lower margin of safety, especially if you stomp on the gas in a hot summer day all the time.
If you see an NA engine base ignition map from any turbo tuning site, you will notice that the timeing under idle or low load (high vacuum) is way higher than the base ignition on your car. Why? The dynamic compression is way lower under low load, and high when you are running in the powerband due to intake/exhaust cam overlap.
Another thing about TL's engine ability to handle higher compression and more advanced timing is the use of drive by wire. In a drive by cable throttle system, you have to take into consideration of how people suddently stomp on gas from idle or let go of gas from lead foot. This cause a sudden rich/lean scenario that the O2 sensor and ECU cannot compensate in time, and can cause knock. It is also a method many mechanic uses to check if your O2 sensor is still good. Drive by wire in TL prevent this by correctly match up the throttle, fuel, and timing and keep it in good AFR constantly, making it safer for higher compression.
For more info I recommend TeamIntegra.net's Michael Delany's Tech Corner, it has a few very good article about dynamic compression and engine design.
No more tomato throwing or name calling, ok?
The combination of dynamic compression ratio and ignition timing dictate what grade of fuel you need in your car. Nothing more, nothing less. Some car equiped with knock sensor let you use lower grade fuel, by retarding the timing when it hear knocks. While you can keep driving like this you have lower margin of safety, especially if you stomp on the gas in a hot summer day all the time.
If you see an NA engine base ignition map from any turbo tuning site, you will notice that the timeing under idle or low load (high vacuum) is way higher than the base ignition on your car. Why? The dynamic compression is way lower under low load, and high when you are running in the powerband due to intake/exhaust cam overlap.
Another thing about TL's engine ability to handle higher compression and more advanced timing is the use of drive by wire. In a drive by cable throttle system, you have to take into consideration of how people suddently stomp on gas from idle or let go of gas from lead foot. This cause a sudden rich/lean scenario that the O2 sensor and ECU cannot compensate in time, and can cause knock. It is also a method many mechanic uses to check if your O2 sensor is still good. Drive by wire in TL prevent this by correctly match up the throttle, fuel, and timing and keep it in good AFR constantly, making it safer for higher compression.
For more info I recommend TeamIntegra.net's Michael Delany's Tech Corner, it has a few very good article about dynamic compression and engine design.
No more tomato throwing or name calling, ok?
Thank you for the helpful information PandaBear. I briefly read Michael Delany's Tech Corner. Very good information explaining the technical aspects of how vehicles work. BTW I didn't start the tomato throwing or name calling. Read the post from the beginning and see how it all started.
07-12-2005, 04:05 AM
#60
Instructor
V6 Accord requires regular fuel (87 octane)
Originally Posted by meathead
interesting. does the v6 accord require premium too?
07-12-2005, 07:20 AM
#61
Instructor
Rebuttal to Pure Adrenaline's unwarranted comments
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Pure Adrenaline says: Do a search for my user name. I help out people very nicely very often, especially in the 2nd generation section.
Answer
As a matter of fact, I have done a search for your user name and here is the information to prove to you that I have done the search. Here's the information source to satisfy your level of skepticism.With a grand total of 6,482 posts it seems like your quite a gregarious fellow.
Yes, you do help people in a quasi-matter to the point of very often. ( Almost to the point of living at Acurazine). I applaude and commend you for your efforts but you can somtimes be seen as arrogant, self-centered, conceited, impatient, argumentative and of course very opinionated. You must take other people's point of view in consideration, they may or may not have valid opinions too. Acurazine is a community made up of many Acura TL owners as well as other automobile enthusiasts. Yes you are knowledgeable about the 2nd generation Acura TL but you are not the only one source with that knowledge. Roadrage, MrHyde, Tight TL, samkws, Lawaia, Michael Wan, and more don't make rude remarks to get their points across, so why should you be able to do that?
You have a 2003 TL-S with the following modifications: (Same as mine BTW car wise not mod wise though)
Suspension
- 18x7.5 Enkei ZR2, Toyo T1-S, Tein SS w/ EDFC, Comptech sway bars, SPC camber kit, Rotora BBK, rear slotted rotors w/ Hawk HP Plus, ATE Super Blue
Engine
- AEM CAI, OBX SS headers, UR pulleys, V-AFC II, Thermoblok Spacer Kit, Yellow Top
Visual
- OEM kit custom molded, 3M Ti 35% tint, cleared headlights, Grille-Tech grilles, HID foglights
Audio
- JL 500/1, 2 12W3v2, Remote Bass Control, RF cap, dynamat
Protection
- Valentine 1 w/ concealed display
Nice mods. Broke the bank account??
Join Date: 12-18-2002
PostsTotal Posts: 6,482 (6.92 posts per day)
Referrals: 1
Additional Information Group Memberships
Birthday:February 6, 1982
Location:Michigan
Interests:Cars
Occupation:Student
Pure Adrenaline says:
But I don't respond too well when someone calls me an asshole out of nowhere. I've kept it civilized despite your name-calling, so don't even talk to me about being rude. :rolleyes
Answer: Ah someone's feelings have been hurt. I didn't know that you would get so emotionally and pyschologically upset with this whole situation. Boo hoo
I am not the one who instigated this whole incident. You made a comment in the first page of this thread. "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. Let's hear what you have to say." So I interpret that anyone in the TL forum who responds with an answer is offering an opinion and by giving an opinion they are assholes??? So I am an asshole and other people who responded to Shoot2Thrill's post are assholes??? Give your head a bang and shake. Pure Adrenaline, your the one who's calling me an asshole and the rest of the TL forum community members assholes indiscriminately out of nowhere. Civilized people don't call people assholes because they have an opinion. Read your own statement carefully.
"Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. Let's hear what you have to say"
Doesn't sound civilized to me. If it sounds civilized to you then you've got a weird twisted sense of what a civilized individual should say and how they should conduct themselves.
Pure Adrenaline says:
It's threads like these where people who don't know shit about anything keep arguing and won't back down.
Answer: Nobody's doing the arguing except you. On the contrary, I probably have a similar knowledge base about the Acura TL through this erudite Acura TL forum. So you're saying I don't know shit and you know everything?? Your more delirious and hilarious as you post your opinions. And yes I am aware of it as you mentioned "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. Let's hear what you have to say." You won't back down, so why should I back down? I didn't start this nasty thread, you did. If you don't believe me, go back to page one of how this thread started. If your so cool, why don't you back down, since you suggested it.
Pure Adrenaline says:
Their purpose of posting in threads like this is not to ask specific questions and learn; they are just dicking around.
Answer: It's a matter of interpretation and opinion. People can ask stupid questions or whatsoever, why do you need to respond to it? It contradicts what you said early. "Do a search for my user name. I help out people very nicely very often, especially in the 2nd generation section"
If they are really dicking around, why do you keep on answering the post? If anyone's dicking around, it's perhaps you keep answering the post and blowing things out of proportion. Don't you agree? Going APE is not going to help you.
A=Action
P=Proportion
E=Exaggeration
Pure Adrenaline says:
It's evident in statements such as "This should be good for another few pages of rant." Sorry, but when people REALLY want to learn about something, they specifically ask. And I always try to help to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunately, this thread just isn't that.
Answer: For the record, I did not make such an evident statement such "This should be good for another few pages of rant." Shoot2Thrill made that statement. Your too angry to see the truth. Please go back to the thread and read it carefully Pure Adrenaline, I did not make that statement, so don't make those accusations and get your facts straight. Your twisting the facts. Questions come in all forms and shapes. They could be specific or broad in nature. Yes, you do try to help with the best of your knowledge. I have read many of your posts and have not commented because your information was correct. I appreciate your feedback about the 2003 Acura TLS."Unfortunately, this thread just isn't that." Agreed, were on the same track. It takes two to tango my friend.
Pure Adrenaline says:
And I find it funny that despite providing all the data and information, I say one time that I'm done here, and you call me out for "not helping people."
Answer:
It's not funny at all except this ongoing debate. Yes you provided data and information. Just because you say your done, doesn't mean it's actually done. It's a one-sided communication and relationship. Doesn't work well because there are two or more parties involved in this TL forum. If your thinking your the authority on the TL forum, I sorry to say..Your NOT. However, I value your feedback and comments. I not saying your not helping people rather it's your graphical comments that got you into this deep pile of SH**T.
Pure Adrenaline says:
Sorry, but at least I don't go around calling people names unprovoked, and at least I provide facts and data for a debate.
Answer:
Well sorry, I don't make offensive comments like "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one. Let's hear what you have to say" Sounds pretty arrogant to me and conceited. So everyone's opinions, comments and feedback is not valued except yours??? That's the interpretation I am getting.
Facts and data are subject to debate. They are not written in stone. Not everyone agrees that synthetic oil should be used in their Acura TL's despite the facts, does that make them assholes??
Pure Adrenaline says:
Last time I checked, you were the one questioning my father for using regular fuel when his car only required regular fuel. So don't even talk to me about "wanting to debate about everything", etc. You're the one picking fight over nothing, not to mention you were wrong.
Most luxury vehicles need premium fuel because their engines are much more sophisticated, and of course, luxury vehicles must have the higher horesepower to match the image. Therefore, engines are tuned to perform better which, in most cases, require the higher detonation point in the premium fuel."
Answer: I was making a generalize statement about luxury or sports cars generally requiring premium fuel for optimized engine performance. My example only included cars NOT SUV's or otherwise.
You were stating an exception to this generalization with your dad's 2004 Yukon XL Denali which requires only regular fuel. For the record Pure Adrenaline is correct here with regards to the 2004 Yukon XL Denali.
However, he did not further elaborate that the compression ratio was 9.4:1( Assuming a 6.0 litre 325-hp V8) which does not qualify it as a high compression motor. General rule of thumb is that anything 10:1 and over is considered a high compression motor. High compression motors generally require premium fuel to run optimal. See the facts below. Are they correct? What is the definition of a luxury vehicle PA? I think using premium fuel for your your dad's 2004 Yukon XL Denali would be totally detrimental to SUV sales, that's why the automotive engineers decided to run the engine on regular fuel instead of premium. Does he ever complain about the increasing gas prices?? By the way, I would have gotten the Cadillac Escalade and not the Yukon if I was in the market for one of those SUV.Vortec 4800 V8
Vortec 5300 V8 5.3L 295-hp V8
Vortec 6000 V8 6.0L 320-hp V8 6.0L 325-hp V8
Vortec 8100 V8 8.1L 320-hp V8 CNG
Engine Specifications for 2005 GMC Yukon
5.3L 295-hp V8 6.0L 320-hp V8 6.0L 325-hp V8 8.1L 320-hp V8 CNG
HP@ 295 @ 5200 RPM 320 @ 5000 RPM 325 @ 5200 RPM 320 @ 4200 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 335 @ 4000 RPM 365 @ 4000 RPM 365 @ 4000 RPM 440 @ 3200 RPM
Displacement (cc) 5328 5967 5967 8129
Turbo/Supercharger No No No No
Bore X Stroke (mm) 96 X 92.00 101.6 X 92.00 101.6 X 92.00 108 X 111.00
Compression Ratio 9.5 9.4 9.4 9.1
Fuel Type Gas Gas Gas CNG
Fuel System MPFI MPFI MPFI No
Data
Now, are we at the end of our discussion? or Is there possiblility of: ding, ding, let's go ballistic and make this into a 12 page thread and beyond?
Yours Truly,
2003 AcuraTLS-Silver
07-12-2005, 01:52 PM
#64
Oh, I do have to clear one thing up. This is for everyone else besides 2003 Acura TLS260-Silver.
He is accusing me of calling you guys assholes, but that is not true. What I said, "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one" was just a saying, my attempt at trying to start off with some humor. For the record, I was not calling any of you guys an asshole. Just thought I should clear that up.
He is accusing me of calling you guys assholes, but that is not true. What I said, "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one" was just a saying, my attempt at trying to start off with some humor. For the record, I was not calling any of you guys an asshole. Just thought I should clear that up.
07-12-2005, 08:53 PM
#65
Instructor
Reply to ndx2
Originally Posted by ndx2
2003 Acura TLS260-Silver, you and your long-ass user name need to chill out.
Suggestions ndx2? Are there rules against long-ass user names? Have I violated the forum with long-ass names? Thanks for the suggestions but I am not the one needing the chill. I was merely replying to Pure Adrenaline's post #53. I am a person of high moral integrity and adhere to strict principles. I would never lash out at anyone unless it was unjust. Go to the beginning of this thread and read through all the posts before making a decision and taking sides.
07-12-2005, 09:27 PM
#66
Instructor
Reply to Pure Adrenaline
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
2003 Acura TLS260-Silver --
I stopped reading your post half way through, because all you are doing is putting words in my mouth. You're twisting everything I say, and even reversing it sometimes. Do you feel like a winner now?
Bye.
I stopped reading your post half way through, because all you are doing is putting words in my mouth. You're twisting everything I say, and even reversing it sometimes. Do you feel like a winner now?
Bye.
This has absolutely nothing to do with being a winner or loser or being malicious in any shape, form or way.
This discussion is to ascertain what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and language in the TL Acurazine forum. 
I feel offended by your abrasive and colorful written language. Maybe you could reserve that language for you close friends or family.
07-12-2005, 09:56 PM
#67
Instructor
Is This A Formal Apology to the TL Acurazine Community including myself???
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Oh, I do have to clear one thing up. This is for everyone else besides 2003 Acura TLS260-Silver.
He is accusing me of calling you guys assholes, but that is not true. What I said, "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one" was just a saying, my attempt at trying to start off with some humor. For the record, I was not calling any of you guys an asshole. Just thought I should clear that up.
He is accusing me of calling you guys assholes, but that is not true. What I said, "Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one" was just a saying, my attempt at trying to start off with some humor. For the record, I was not calling any of you guys an asshole. Just thought I should clear that up.
You have a perverted sense of humor but it's ok. Probably part of your personality based on your old posts that I have come upon. Once again, thank you for clearing up any state of major confusion here. Please be reminded of the Acurazine Forum Rules when conducting yourself on the TL forum. A little respect and politeness never killed anyone. Arrogance does. Look forward to reading your interesting posts in the future.Acurazine Forum Rules
We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.
Although the administrators and moderators of Acura TL Community will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Acura TL Community, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
The owners of Acura TL Community reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
Pure Adrenaline has read, and agreed to abide by the Acura TL Community rules. Right????
07-12-2005, 09:59 PM
#68
6MT & LSD
Join Date: Apr 2005
Age: 40
Posts: 1,754
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're waaay too uptight. It just seemed like you were taking a lot of the comments the wrong way; for instance, I merely mentioned your "long-ass" user name (very creative, by the way), which I typed almost as a reaction to typing out your, well, long-ass user name.
I never said anything about violating any rules, nor did I suggest you change your name. Yet, you come back at me with this sarcastic & hostile post... Normally, people would just shrug it off with a chuckle to such comment, or post a good comeback. Judging from your reply, I still think you need to chill. Relax. Relaaaaax.
I wasn't taking anyone's side, by the way. In my humble opinion, I think this thread is rather worthless.
07-12-2005, 10:45 PM
#69
Pro
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Vaughan, ON
Age: 36
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
k guys bitch on your own time. here's my question and comment. my friend owns a '69 350 chevelle with about 390 hp and 450 lb. ft. torque. it takes about 10 minutes just to warm up and he can barely step on the gas pedal without the tires spinning. he can barely get away with 91, the car just doesnt run right with anything lower, let alone perform well. it makes sense then that a higher octane is needed for better performance, because (remembering back from chemistry class) octane is the chemical compound in gasoline that produces combustion. what i dont understand is that in the TL, a higher octane is required to prevent premature detonation in the combustion chamber, yet a higher octane means more combustion. anyone wish to explain this to me? 
07-12-2005, 11:00 PM
#70
Originally Posted by 2003 Acura TLS260-Silver
I going to give you the benefit of the doubt here Pure Adrenaline, I ass u me that you want to make amends to the TL Acurazine Community with regards to your behaviour and use of graphical language. Your statement may have been funny to you but it was not funny at all to me. ( I lack a sense of humor)
You have a perverted sense of humor but it's ok. Probably part of your personality based on your old posts that I have come upon. Once again, thank you for clearing up any state of major confusion here. Please be reminded of the Acurazine Forum Rules when conducting yourself on the TL forum. A little respect and politeness never killed anyone. Arrogance does. Look forward to reading your interesting posts in the future.Acurazine Forum Rules
We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.
Although the administrators and moderators of Acura TL Community will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Acura TL Community, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
The owners of Acura TL Community reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.
Pure Adrenaline has read, and agreed to abide by the Acura TL Community rules. Right????
07-12-2005, 11:34 PM
#72
Intermediate
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Age: 46
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by massr1
k guys bitch on your own time. here's my question and comment. my friend owns a '69 350 chevelle with about 390 hp and 450 lb. ft. torque. it takes about 10 minutes just to warm up and he can barely step on the gas pedal without the tires spinning. he can barely get away with 91, the car just doesnt run right with anything lower, let alone perform well. it makes sense then that a higher octane is needed for better performance, because (remembering back from chemistry class) octane is the chemical compound in gasoline that produces combustion. what i dont understand is that in the TL, a higher octane is required to prevent premature detonation in the combustion chamber, yet a higher octane means more combustion. anyone wish to explain this to me?
Ignition occur before you compress your air fuel completely, thats why it is called BTDC, before top dead center. So by the time it pass top dead center it achieve more power, and get you a net gain after subtracting the additional compression you need to go against ignite BTDC. All engine does it, some does more and require 91 fuel like Integra GSR (16-18 BTDC), while others does less and require only 86 (10 on Corolla and I think 12 on Taurus Vulcan). Again, this is not rocket science and you can "tweak" it anyway you want on any engine if you have the right tool.
Some engine comes without knock sensor, like the 350 chevy your friend owns, where ignition is not retarded when knock occur. TL retard ignition when knock is detected and thus lower performance at high load, low load should be ok as the dynamic compression is actually much less (you are limiting the amount of air into the chamber, thus less air to compress than the full potential of 11:1). Thats why 91 gives you more power and better fuel economy per gallon under high load, but in low load you probably won't see any differences.
Higher octane doesn't mean more combustion (well, maybe a little bit more per volume but nothing significant, but it is very brand specific, so lets not get into it).
Higher octane requirement has nothing to do with luxury car or not, nothing to do with displacement, nothing to do with the amount of protection you get from your fuel (thats the detergent in gas and the engine oil's responsibility). It is a matter of DYNAMIC compression ratio (PV = nRT, temperature plays a role here too) and ignition timing.
You can get away with lower octane if you don't floor it, but you may lose HP.
All side, please stop the name calling, these kind of behavior makes this forum looks bad.
07-13-2005, 09:11 AM
#74
Instructor
Once again thank you for your response PA
Originally Posted by Pure Adrenaline
Thanks for your time.
07-13-2005, 09:29 AM
#75
Registered Abuser of VTEC
Originally Posted by PandaBear
What you read in chemistry class is not entirely the same thing you read in the gas pump. It said Octane Rating, not Octane percentage. What it means is the gas it sells performs equivalent to a gas with 87/89/91 or whatever percent of Octane in the gas. It defines how well the gas can be compressed without self ignite via compression (dieselling). Higher octane can withstand higher compression/temperature combination without self-ignite.
Ignition occur before you compress your air fuel completely, thats why it is called BTDC, before top dead center. So by the time it pass top dead center it achieve more power, and get you a net gain after subtracting the additional compression you need to go against ignite BTDC. All engine does it, some does more and require 91 fuel like Integra GSR (16-18 BTDC), while others does less and require only 86 (10 on Corolla and I think 12 on Taurus Vulcan). Again, this is not rocket science and you can "tweak" it anyway you want on any engine if you have the right tool.
Some engine comes without knock sensor, like the 350 chevy your friend owns, where ignition is not retarded when knock occur. TL retard ignition when knock is detected and thus lower performance at high load, low load should be ok as the dynamic compression is actually much less (you are limiting the amount of air into the chamber, thus less air to compress than the full potential of 11:1). Thats why 91 gives you more power and better fuel economy per gallon under high load, but in low load you probably won't see any differences.
Higher octane doesn't mean more combustion (well, maybe a little bit more per volume but nothing significant, but it is very brand specific, so lets not get into it).
Higher octane requirement has nothing to do with luxury car or not, nothing to do with displacement, nothing to do with the amount of protection you get from your fuel (thats the detergent in gas and the engine oil's responsibility). It is a matter of DYNAMIC compression ratio (PV = nRT, temperature plays a role here too) and ignition timing.
You can get away with lower octane if you don't floor it, but you may lose HP.
All side, please stop the name calling, these kind of behavior makes this forum looks bad.
Ignition occur before you compress your air fuel completely, thats why it is called BTDC, before top dead center. So by the time it pass top dead center it achieve more power, and get you a net gain after subtracting the additional compression you need to go against ignite BTDC. All engine does it, some does more and require 91 fuel like Integra GSR (16-18 BTDC), while others does less and require only 86 (10 on Corolla and I think 12 on Taurus Vulcan). Again, this is not rocket science and you can "tweak" it anyway you want on any engine if you have the right tool.
Some engine comes without knock sensor, like the 350 chevy your friend owns, where ignition is not retarded when knock occur. TL retard ignition when knock is detected and thus lower performance at high load, low load should be ok as the dynamic compression is actually much less (you are limiting the amount of air into the chamber, thus less air to compress than the full potential of 11:1). Thats why 91 gives you more power and better fuel economy per gallon under high load, but in low load you probably won't see any differences.
Higher octane doesn't mean more combustion (well, maybe a little bit more per volume but nothing significant, but it is very brand specific, so lets not get into it).
Higher octane requirement has nothing to do with luxury car or not, nothing to do with displacement, nothing to do with the amount of protection you get from your fuel (thats the detergent in gas and the engine oil's responsibility). It is a matter of DYNAMIC compression ratio (PV = nRT, temperature plays a role here too) and ignition timing.
You can get away with lower octane if you don't floor it, but you may lose HP.
All side, please stop the name calling, these kind of behavior makes this forum looks bad.
07-13-2005, 12:10 PM
#76
Intermediate
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Age: 46
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am no expert in this, nor am I a chemical engineer or chemist, so I don't know how well the mixed air fuel performs like ideal gas. However, the relationship between PV and nRT still hold in that proportion, so maybe PV (alpha) nRT is a
more accurate formula.
http://uberdata.pgmfi.org/forum/inde...y;threadid=716
http://uberdata.pgmfi.org/forum/atta.../foshizzle.jpg
The link above pretty much sums up what is going on in a primitive ECU for modern (or in the 90s) fuel injected engine. Your TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) and MAP/MAF (Mass air pressure/flow) sensors works together to figure out how much air enters your engine, the O2 sensor find out how much air/fuel you are running, and the amount of fuel/ignition timing you needed. It indirectly calculate your engine load on that particular rpm and determine whether you need to run ideal (14.7), lean (15), or rich (13 or less).
Notice how the air fuel goes from 15:1 to 12:1 when you go from high vacuum (idle) to flooring it (full throttle) to high boost (turbo/supercharge). The added fuel helps the mixture burn rich, and rich burning has higher margin for knock. Remember when you put more air/fuel in the engine and compress it, the compression ratio actually goes up, thus a richer mixture makes it less likely to knock. It makes you realize how someone can put a lot of horse power in an equivalent displacement. You burn rich with more fuel and advance timing, some fuel got wasted but the power per displacement is larger, your gas milage goes to hell however.
In other country with more expensive fuel but lower emission standard, like Japan, they have another way of running the engine that makes more hp and fuel economy: GDI - gasoline direct injection.
GDI like the Mitsubishi's works by putting the injector inside the combustion chamber, and inject during the very end of compression stroke, the high pressure ignite the fuel with very very low air fuel ratio, in the area of 20:1 or so, that
makes a lot of power and a lot of NOX emission. From what I heard the result is a 20% increase in fuel economy because you are basically running your gas engine like a diesel engine, but with gasoline as fuel.
You can get away with rich/lean from 14.7 air fuel ratio, but you won't pass smog.
I will try to find an ignition map for you guys, I am at work so I can't spend too much time on this.
more accurate formula.
http://uberdata.pgmfi.org/forum/inde...y;threadid=716
http://uberdata.pgmfi.org/forum/atta.../foshizzle.jpg
The link above pretty much sums up what is going on in a primitive ECU for modern (or in the 90s) fuel injected engine. Your TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) and MAP/MAF (Mass air pressure/flow) sensors works together to figure out how much air enters your engine, the O2 sensor find out how much air/fuel you are running, and the amount of fuel/ignition timing you needed. It indirectly calculate your engine load on that particular rpm and determine whether you need to run ideal (14.7), lean (15), or rich (13 or less).
Notice how the air fuel goes from 15:1 to 12:1 when you go from high vacuum (idle) to flooring it (full throttle) to high boost (turbo/supercharge). The added fuel helps the mixture burn rich, and rich burning has higher margin for knock. Remember when you put more air/fuel in the engine and compress it, the compression ratio actually goes up, thus a richer mixture makes it less likely to knock. It makes you realize how someone can put a lot of horse power in an equivalent displacement. You burn rich with more fuel and advance timing, some fuel got wasted but the power per displacement is larger, your gas milage goes to hell however.
In other country with more expensive fuel but lower emission standard, like Japan, they have another way of running the engine that makes more hp and fuel economy: GDI - gasoline direct injection.
GDI like the Mitsubishi's works by putting the injector inside the combustion chamber, and inject during the very end of compression stroke, the high pressure ignite the fuel with very very low air fuel ratio, in the area of 20:1 or so, that
makes a lot of power and a lot of NOX emission. From what I heard the result is a 20% increase in fuel economy because you are basically running your gas engine like a diesel engine, but with gasoline as fuel.
You can get away with rich/lean from 14.7 air fuel ratio, but you won't pass smog.
I will try to find an ignition map for you guys, I am at work so I can't spend too much time on this.
07-29-2005, 03:44 PM
#78
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 43
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Shoot2Thrill
Toyota Corolla XRS 11.5/1 = Regular Unleaded
You're totally disregarding timing. CR isn't the only factor that determines the required octane level.
oooh, 11.5:1 CR @ 170 hp.
DC2 B18C5 is at 10.6:1 on 91+ octane @ 195 hp.
Shit, if CR is the only thing that matters in engines, then we might as well all be driving diesels.
07-29-2005, 05:17 PM
#80
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2005
Age: 38
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by yunginTL
what a bunch of nerds
that was a useless post :P
it's about timing and compression ratio.
go advance ur timing 60 degrees and see what happens to ur engine. you can run with 8.0 compression, but i guarantee ur engine will die if u advance ur timings that much. higher timings=higher power. high compression=higher power(unless you are FI, then you want a ~9:1 compression so you can up the boost.)