Marvin

I am looking at getting a new car in the near future. These are my current contenders. I would like any opinions from anyone that had same type of cars in mind. What I like about the TL is the Acura reliability, fit and finish, and overall value. What I do not like is the bad press it is getting for torque steer. Is it really that bad? I have a Saab 9000 turbo and it has bad torque steer, but I can live with it, how bad is the TL. I would probably opt for the Auto if the 6 Speed had the torque steer my Saab has. Is the torque steer in 6 speed worse? I know common sense would dictate that it is, but just asking.

Formula 350

Hi Marvin,

I can only talk about the TL and RX8. The TL torque steer is not bad at all. I only feel 'something' when turning a 90 degree turn and flooring it. All other time it is very tame.

I chose TL over RX8 as the RX8 is smaller, is having a lot of engine problems and is prone to flooding. Oh, and the gas mileage sucks. As for driving, I think the RX8 is a very nice car. However, I will never think that a engine is a replaceable part!! You will see a bunch of people on the RX8 site defend thier car, but I want some reliability. That is why I got rid of my Formula.

youngmic

What's a "Formula"?

cma2180

FireBird

youngmic

Ah. Thank you.

Shoofin

S60 is way too small if you plan on using the back seat..
Ed

Mav

7224 posts! Good lord! If I hit 7000 post please remove my access to this forum.

:lol1:

żGotJazz?

I guess when you're a Forum Moderator, you tend to post a lot. That's the main reason I'm not a Moderator. The secondary reason is that no one has ever asked!

drising

From a pure driver's car - hands down.....S60 (MT). I drove the Volvo after my TL purchase (went to the Detroit auto show and after sitting in one - had to drive one). I was feeling a bit of buyer's remorse. However, the combination of my wife nixing anything with a stick and less useable space in the back decided for me.

But good grief.....a sub 5 sec 0-60? Every bit as fun as an M3 w/ more room.

Almost Jake

I drove two of the cars you mentioned, the RX-8 and TL, along with the Infiniti G-35, Acura TSX, Nissan 350Z, and even the Accord coupe 6-spd. Drove them all numerous times before we decided on the TL. All were driven with the manual transmission, but I also drove the TSX, G-35, and TL with the auto.

This was my thoughts on each:

RX-8 - Liked the idea of a 4-door sports car, and thought it looked good and handled very nice. The back seat wasn't too bad for shorter passengers for a short distance. However, the car didn't have enough pick-up for my tastes. I question the cars reliability since the engine has a single point of failure. The interior materials were on the cheap side, and the trunk was almost useless with the optional spare. I also thought Mazda's pricing was deceptive. Sure the car's base price is low, but nobody would ever buy, or find one, in that configuration. I also thought a $30K car should come with more than a can of "fix-a-flat". Like I said earlier, the trunk is almost useless with the optional space-saver spare installed. It hangs from the top of the rear deck, leaving little room for anything in the trunk. Defeats the idea of a weekend get-away vehicle. Also, the rear pass through is also almost useless when the optional spare is present. Throw in Mazda's habit of inflating HP numbers and I walked away. By the way, once Mazda announced the lower HP ratings most persons who bought the car chose to return the car for a full refund. That has got to say something about their investment. (That was taken from a USA Today article on the HP scandal.)

G-35 - Nice looking, good reliability, excellent handling, but fell short due to an interior that was cheaper than any $35K should be. Also, some of the controls were confusing and in obscure locations. The base price is also deceiving. Put on option that should have come standard, and it's rising into the mid to upper 30's.

TSX - I came so close to buying one, but eventually, was underwhelmed by the HP numbers. The entire time I was researching the vehicle, I found myself looking at aftermarket performace options. Then it dawned on me, why should I have to modify a brand new car. Other than it's power, I thought the car was awsome. A very nice package for someone who isn't too large.

350Z - I thought I'd love this one, but actually liked the G-35 better. Maybe I'd like it if I was 20 again. It handled nice, had lots of pick-up, but had the same cheap interior as ever other Nissan product I've encountered. It looks good, but once you touch and feel the interior pieces, I always thought it was too plastic for a $30K+ vehicle. Also, the pricing was deceptive. The base vehicle is missing must-have options, like a limited slip. I didn't care for the in-your-face engine sound either. I know I'm looking at a sports car, must I be reminded of it every minute of the ride? The same was true for the G-35, but it wasn't quite as loud.

TL - I wasn't initially sold on the TL, because of the stock tires. The handling wasn't as sharp as the TSX's, but came close with the optional HPTs, Granted, I'll put on better rubber like the Perilli PZeros. I loved the creature comforts and guts of the V6. But the handling with the HPT sold me. I already knew it was a great value, but wanted to be sure I could live with it's performance since I keep cars 10-years on average. I doubt I'd ever use the DVD-Audio, since I already bought into the Super Audio CD (SACD) format for my home. Compare the two, SACD is better. God only knows why Acura chose DVD-A. As for torque steer, I notice a little only when driving the 6-speed and accelerating very hard on a sharp corner. I love to drive aggressively, and don't think it's a real problem. Also, I don't mind front wheel drive since I plan to retire soon in Michigan. Sure rear wheel drive is fun, but it's also not-so-fun when your trying to get to work on snowy days. Give me front wheel drive or AWD any day over rear wheel drive.

Hope this helped.

vandy786

BS. Do yourself a favor and push an M3 around first before making such statements. I guarantee you'll retract your statement.

NOX 3.2

I like the M5 a lot better than the M3 (too small).
my friends don't fit in the back.

other than that, they are all good cars.

dwhitten

My experience has been the same as others on this thread, no noticeable torque steer except while sharp cornering and heavy throttle. Do not let the magazines (e.g. C&D) scare you. Good grief, look at the picture in C&D's latest 35K shootout. They have all 4 wheels of the TL off the ground. This is hardly typical, or even spirited, driving by most peoples' definition. I really enjoy my car and look for excuses to drive it on the two-laners around my home.

bluenoser

Interesting observation on the wheels off the ground thing. C&D actually had little to say about torque steer (which the TL has none), they did not like the feel of the LSD. What they really knocked was was the TLs poor landings from these airborne manoevers, so be sure to test this out before buying - with your favorite salesman (and a barf bag of course).

drising

Vandy -

Don't take such a position of arrogance. I speak from a more informed position than the one you claim. My brother owns an M3, so I am qualified to push one. A friend of mine owns a local Volvo dealership, and after a Saturday afternoon behind the wheel, I'm comfortable with a head-to-head comparison.

A quick review.......and before we go down this path, remember the M3 wasn't in the original comparison. Given the disparity in price, there's no wonder.

Drivetrain
M3 - RWD
S60R - Haldex AWD
ADVANTAGE - VOLVO

HP
M3 - 333
S60R - 300
ADVANTAGE BMW

0-60
M3 4.5 seconds
S60R 5.4 (my bad; confused sub 5 w/ the CTS-V)
ADVANTAGE - BMW

Braking
M3 - 161 ft.
S60R - 166 ft.
ADVANTAGE BMW

Skidpad
M3 - .87g
S60R - .88g
ADVANTAGE VOLVO

Legroom (F/R)
M3 - 42.5/28
S60R - 42.6/33.3
ADVANTAGE VOLVO

Headroom
M3 - 37.5/36.5
S60R - 38.9/37.9
ADVANTAGE VOLVO

AND THE BIGGIE.........

$ (equipped)
M3 - $58k
S60R - $43k
ADVANTAGE VOLVO

You can draw your own conclusions based on both the above data and the experience that comes from turning the wheel and pushing the stick. I never implied the Volvo was a superior auto to the M3. But for the same reasons those on this board have purchased the TL over Bimmers, I would opine that the $15,000 left in the purchaser's bank account compensates for the advantages the M3 has over the S60R (which I could count on one hand).

And this doesn't take into account the day-to-day driveability of the 2. Quite frankly, as much as I enjoy driving it, I couldn't own an M3; the ride is simply too harsh for family driving (even if you could fit 2 in the back seat). The Volvo is a much better bridge to pure performance. But then again, what do I know?

Apologies to Marvin for getting off track.

junk_99_dl

I had my choices narrowed to these two vehicles. I absolutely loved the S60R. I just couldn't justify the extra $8000. The back seat in the Volvo was a little less roomy. I have never experienced torque steer before the TL. The first time I did, it startled me since it nearly jerked the steering wheel loose from my hands. However, now that I'm used to it, it doesn't seem that bad. And really, how often do I get on it that hard. For me it came down to the value of the TL and its reputation for dependability.

vandy786

Hey man, no problem. I initially thought you were dissing the M3 and saying the Volvo is flat-out faster and outperforms it. As your last post indicates, that was not your intention. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As long as we're comparing cars, why not the STI or Evo over the Volvo? They're cheaper and probably perform better too (I think).

MN CLS

I have a similar "problem", I am currently trying to pick between the TL 6MT HPT, the Volvo S60R MT and the Infiniti G35 6MT Coupe. I have test driven all of them in the 6MT form, some of them more then once...

G35

Do not like the sedan, so it is down to the coupe. It is really a nice driving car with great handling. It is however lacking inside, both as far as space and interior design/refinement. I will problably not pick the coupe as much as it saddens me as it was my early favorite.

S60R

I really like this car, however, it is a substantial amount of extra $'s to buy. The negatives are once again the interior, between the Nav and the stereo it just doesn't compare with the TL. The refinement of the interior, although not as poor as the G35, is not up to snuff with the TL. Still undecided on this one...

TL

I absolutely love the interior, both the design and the features. I was not a fan of the exterior when the original pictures came out, but when I saw it in person the first time I loved it. Love the engine and the power. My only slight negative is the handling...
Driving a CL Type S currently, I was supprised when I floored it the first time. It reminded me of a SAAB that I once owned, well not quite as bad, but you get the drift. There was torque steer, which I don't really get with my CLS, so it supprised me. I wouldn't call it extreme and I would problably get used to it, but it made me indecisive. If it had AWD, I would already own it...

digital_b

if you check out volvo 'reliability' you will soon eliminate it unless youre being subjective instead of objective.

wakattack

I too considered the S60 series. Very nice car. It feels very solid, and has a richness to it. What really turned me off of it though was actually reading on the Volvo forums. www.volvoforums.com and read the amount of problems and complaints people have. Sure all message boards talk about problems with their cars. But while the people on their seem to really like their cars, they do seem to have a consensus that Ford has cheapened Volvo to some degree, and there are a lot of mechanical issues. It was frightning. I was a old time volvo fan and had a previously had a 240 and a 760.

my 2 cents

markj

I took the TL-6MT out for a test drive last week, and I could feel *NO* torque steer. What I *did* feel was the LSD kicking in on cornering under full throttle. What happens is that the LSD doesn't put all of the power (torque) to the faster spinning wheel (the outside one) as a regular differential would do. Instead, it puts some power to the interior wheel (this is what limited slip means). So, when giving it lots of gas around a corner, the inside wheel wants to straighten out the car, and causes the steering wheel to jerk in your hands. This is a fundamental disadvantage of having an LSD on a front wheel drive car. There are three solutions to this problem:

1) don't floor it on corners

2) hold on to the steering wheel when driving

3) get a 5AT

--Mark

markj

A clarification:

What I describe is a form of torque steer (after all, it is the torque turning the car). However, what I mean is that it is not the classic torque steer which happens when the car is going straight and wants to pull to one side under acceleration (as happens in cars with unequal half-shaft lengths).

Formula 350

YES, this is the only torque steer that you will feel. Since it is the LSD working, it is why you do not feel it going straight. I have accelarated hard going straight and NO pull either way on the wheel.

Also to consider (at least for some) is that Volvo will lose a lot more value quicker.

Bartman_RENAMED

I drove the RX8 and the base model of the S60.

RX8- Fast, quick response, amazing handling, but it is a piece of junk Mazda that burns a quart of oil every month. Just open and close the doors and you will walk away from the RX8.

S60 - Nice AWD, but very boring appearance in and out.

ndabunka

Personally I CAN'T STAND the headrest in the Volvo's. We bought an '01 S80 for my Grandma (Good car for older person). My wife liked it and we would have considered other Volvo's IF my head wasn't forced into my chest when under normal driving conditions. I don't know about others on this board but I like adjustable headrest. I LIKE the ability to move my head back sometimes. THE HEADREST ON ALL VOLVO'S IS TERRIBLE!!!

BarryH

I have a V70R and just got rid of a '01 MDX and '02 TL-S. The Volvo's definately a step up from the Acura's in materials, fit, and finish. Some comments on some of your comments:

~ Size - the S60 definitely has less rear seat room than the TL. The Volvo's classified as a compact while the TL is a mid-size.

~ Interior - the material quality is much higher than the TL. There's no vinyl anywhere - anything that can be leather is. The look is Swedish modern with an eye toward function over form. I like it but it's a matter of individual preference. Someone commented on the headrests - they are the highest ranking in tests by the NHTSA and IIHS every year.

~ Quality - the most active Volvo forum is swedespeed.com. I consider myself pretty anal retentive but some of the complaints on the board are overblown to the point of being ridiculous. I've had one minor problem with the car since I got it in June. Other than that, the build quality has been impressive. No rattles, paint issues, or material wear problems.

~ Navi – I had Navi in my Acura’s and I love the Volvo system. It does seem things better and something’s not as well. Here’s a link to a comparison thread: http://forums.swedespeed.com/zerothread?id=13346

As someone else said, the S60R is not really a direct comparison to the TL based on price and market position. The S60R is kind of a 9/10 S4 for about $10K less. But at about $4K more than a TL, you have to really think about what's important to you.

drising

Well stated, Barry.

Thanks for steppping up to the plate. You point to an issue that's become prevalent throughout the industry. Everyone wants to compare autos head-to-head (TL vs. 330; CTSV vs. M5) Truth be told, I just don't think it can be done. You have to buy what catches your eye, fills your functional need, and fits your budget.

On their own, each of the cars being discussed are outstanding; they fill very specific needs. So there's no reason to scrape Volvos, Audis, BMWs, and yes, Acuras.

ndabunka

Good post by Barry. I know the Volvo headrest are rated well (for crashes) but to me they rate at the bottom (for comfort). drising is also correct in that many make poor comparisons simply by using price as a determining factor. This board seems to be REALLY bad about trying to compare dis-similar sized cars simply becase the price is close. I wish more people would compare apples to apples. If the Volvo 60 is a compact, then it should be compared to the TSX. If so, then is KILLS the TSX (for a price). If comparing it to a TL, then you have to realize that it's a smaller car (#1) and apply some type of costs to that factor.

mspence3

Apples to apples may very well mean price comparison to many people rather than size class. It really depends on what your looking for. My goal was to buy the BEST car for me, for $35,000 or less, and I most certainly used price as a factor to determine the cars I would consider.

1SICKLEX

I think the S60R is one of the most underrated and overlooked performance cars on the market today. Wonderful car and incredible price for what you get.

Lastdra900n

TL

Bitium

When You become a super moderator, your drive goes down. I got stuck in the 3k's once I became a Supermod.