TL-S - Not a star at the drag strip(?)
10-13-2008, 03:28 PM
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TL-S - Not a star at the drag strip(?)
So this past Saturday I'm up at Maple Grove Raceway in my '07 TL-S 6-speed, lining up at 10:01 AM for my first pass ever with the car. The track hasn't come in yet (it's cool, and the strip has only seen two passes before me), but the air density is at around 600 feet, so it's good air. I figure this is more or less a checkout pass, so I bring revs to about 2000, and when the third green filament just begins to warm, I slip the clutch while feeding some gas, and we lazily launch. I hit full throttle at maybe 40 feet out, grab second at the redline (no powershift), and the car skitters a bit before settling down, so I know the track is still iffy. The two-three goes fine with just a little rubber, and the three-four is uneventful as the finish line looms.
The timeslip says 14.27 @ 99.73, with a 2.38(!) short time. Damn! I believe this is a 13 second car!
Because it's a test 'n tune day, everybody and his brother is there, and as is typical of such days, when the hot guys start making passes, there's wreckage and oil strewn everywhere. So it is that I don't get to line up again until 12:26 P.M., with air density at around 1200 feet. Still good air, and traction has definitely improved, so I hold it at around 2500, and go to perhaps half throttle instantly while feathering the clutch a bit. It bogs a little, but I get to full throttle at perhaps a car-length out. I make the instant decision (because of the bog) to powershift, and the car doesn't skitter any more on the one-two than it did earlier in the day, so it was the right decision.
Maybe.
The two-three and three-four are uneventful, and when I get my timeslip, it says 14.07 @ 99.15, with a 2.25 short. What the hell?
The 2.25 short and 14.07 are alright, given the minor bog, but what's with the drop in speed? Even with the slightly less dense air, I was expecting around 101 mph with the powershifting, so this doesn't compute.
Oh well. Back to the lanes where I'll have plenty of time to think it over. I figure the car definitely has a two-teener in it for a short time, and a 13-second timeslip is easily possible.
What with the lunch break and further oildowns, the next pass doesn't come up until 3:14 with air density at about 1500 feet, and this time I'm going for it. I bring the revs to about 3500, and go to about three-quarter throttle almost instantly while still feathering the clutch a bit.
Wrong!
The tach instantly skies to around 5500, so figuring I've gone too far and am frying the radials, I grab second (no powershift), and when I hit the gas, the tach goes to 6000 plus! I let off, then stab the gas and it instantly goes to 6000 again!
Clutch slip!
I grab third and coast for two seconds, then gently apply throttle and we motor to a 20.08 @ 67.72.
Back in the pits, the odor of fried clutch over-easy is permeative, so I let the car sit for a few minutes before firing up and gently motoring home. At first, the clutch is slippy-grabby, but by the time I get home around 35 miles away, it feels better.
Thinking about it, it now seems clear why the MPH was down a hair on that powershifting pass. The clutch was slipping, but not enough to be noticeable.
Now, the clutch is fine and it's as if it never happened.
I still think there's a launch in the car that will give me my two-teener and rightful 13.90 or so, but this car isn't going to see the dragstrip again. It's fast, it's quiet, it's comfortable, it looks pretty good, handles well and comes with all the good stuff - but it ain't no drag car.
Bruce
The timeslip says 14.27 @ 99.73, with a 2.38(!) short time. Damn! I believe this is a 13 second car!
Because it's a test 'n tune day, everybody and his brother is there, and as is typical of such days, when the hot guys start making passes, there's wreckage and oil strewn everywhere. So it is that I don't get to line up again until 12:26 P.M., with air density at around 1200 feet. Still good air, and traction has definitely improved, so I hold it at around 2500, and go to perhaps half throttle instantly while feathering the clutch a bit. It bogs a little, but I get to full throttle at perhaps a car-length out. I make the instant decision (because of the bog) to powershift, and the car doesn't skitter any more on the one-two than it did earlier in the day, so it was the right decision.
Maybe.
The two-three and three-four are uneventful, and when I get my timeslip, it says 14.07 @ 99.15, with a 2.25 short. What the hell?
The 2.25 short and 14.07 are alright, given the minor bog, but what's with the drop in speed? Even with the slightly less dense air, I was expecting around 101 mph with the powershifting, so this doesn't compute.
Oh well. Back to the lanes where I'll have plenty of time to think it over. I figure the car definitely has a two-teener in it for a short time, and a 13-second timeslip is easily possible.
What with the lunch break and further oildowns, the next pass doesn't come up until 3:14 with air density at about 1500 feet, and this time I'm going for it. I bring the revs to about 3500, and go to about three-quarter throttle almost instantly while still feathering the clutch a bit.
Wrong!
The tach instantly skies to around 5500, so figuring I've gone too far and am frying the radials, I grab second (no powershift), and when I hit the gas, the tach goes to 6000 plus! I let off, then stab the gas and it instantly goes to 6000 again!
Clutch slip!
I grab third and coast for two seconds, then gently apply throttle and we motor to a 20.08 @ 67.72.
Back in the pits, the odor of fried clutch over-easy is permeative, so I let the car sit for a few minutes before firing up and gently motoring home. At first, the clutch is slippy-grabby, but by the time I get home around 35 miles away, it feels better.
Thinking about it, it now seems clear why the MPH was down a hair on that powershifting pass. The clutch was slipping, but not enough to be noticeable.
Now, the clutch is fine and it's as if it never happened.
I still think there's a launch in the car that will give me my two-teener and rightful 13.90 or so, but this car isn't going to see the dragstrip again. It's fast, it's quiet, it's comfortable, it looks pretty good, handles well and comes with all the good stuff - but it ain't no drag car.
Bruce
10-13-2008, 03:45 PM
#3
What makes you so sure that the tl-s is a 13 second car? I mean you might be able to pull a 13.9 with terrific driving, but IMO its not really a 13 second car until you can do it consistently. Its close tho, with a few mods, good tires, and a good track you could be well on your way. Your times seem about right though.
10-13-2008, 04:01 PM
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There is nothing wrong with those time for a under 300HP (at the flywheel) FWD 4 door sedan that will see 30mpg on the highway.
I expect the exact same package in a RWD configuration would be a true 13 second car. Main problem with the TL is getting the power to the ground since a strong launch & 1/2 - 2/3 shifts unload the front tires.
When the TL is pulling weight off the driving tires a RWD is shifting weight onto them improving traction.
I expect the exact same package in a RWD configuration would be a true 13 second car. Main problem with the TL is getting the power to the ground since a strong launch & 1/2 - 2/3 shifts unload the front tires.
When the TL is pulling weight off the driving tires a RWD is shifting weight onto them improving traction.
10-13-2008, 04:15 PM
#5
The TL is a turd on the dragstrip. Nuff said. I dont care who you are. But I guess that depends on your definition of a turd too. Anything under about 12 seconds is not worth running drags IMO. You can have fun for a short while and have a good time trying to improve your skills...but the bottom line is its not a race car for the most part whatsoever without a WHOLE lot of money dumped into it!
10-13-2008, 04:22 PM
#6
Registered Member
You're in '87-'88 Mustang 302CID territory (with their high rear - 2.73) with your very low 14's. The small block 302 was rated at 225 HP and 300 lb/ft of torque, so you're doing quite nicely with a stock TL-S.
Have to ask you one thing, though. What are you calling a "powershift"? Let me give you three definitions of shifting and you tell me which one you were doing. Just curious.. not looking to bash or flame.
Speed Shift: Normal shifting but done very fast. Clutch is used between shifts.
Power Shift: Like a Speed Shift, but the driver's foot stays planted in the throttle the entire time.
Bang Shift : Like a Power Shift except for the fact that the clutch is only used at launch time.
Incidently, a 14.07 is nothing to sneeze at for a 3500+ pound sports sedan with a mid-sized V6 and front wheel drive. You did fine.
Have to ask you one thing, though. What are you calling a "powershift"? Let me give you three definitions of shifting and you tell me which one you were doing. Just curious.. not looking to bash or flame.
Speed Shift: Normal shifting but done very fast. Clutch is used between shifts.
Power Shift: Like a Speed Shift, but the driver's foot stays planted in the throttle the entire time.
Bang Shift : Like a Power Shift except for the fact that the clutch is only used at launch time.
Incidently, a 14.07 is nothing to sneeze at for a 3500+ pound sports sedan with a mid-sized V6 and front wheel drive. You did fine.
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10-13-2008, 06:55 PM
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On Saturday, the car had a 13.90 in it, but the driver didn't. I haven't seen what others are doing with the TL-S, but with an experienced driver (which I am) and a decent 60-foot, 13's will just come naturally.
What kind of short times are others getting with a stock TL-S on all-seasons? 2.25 can't represent anything to be proud of.
Bruce
What kind of short times are others getting with a stock TL-S on all-seasons? 2.25 can't represent anything to be proud of.
Bruce
10-13-2008, 06:59 PM
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...Have to ask you one thing, though. What are you calling a "powershift"? Let me give you three definitions of shifting and you tell me which one you were doing. Just curious.. not looking to bash or flame.
Speed Shift: Normal shifting but done very fast. Clutch is used between shifts.
Power Shift: Like a Speed Shift, but the driver's foot stays planted in the throttle the entire time.
Bang Shift : Like a Power Shift except for the fact that the clutch is only used at launch time.
Incidently, a 14.07 is nothing to sneeze at for a 3500+ pound sports sedan with a mid-sized V6 and front wheel drive. You did fine.
Speed Shift: Normal shifting but done very fast. Clutch is used between shifts.
Power Shift: Like a Speed Shift, but the driver's foot stays planted in the throttle the entire time.
Bang Shift : Like a Power Shift except for the fact that the clutch is only used at launch time.
Incidently, a 14.07 is nothing to sneeze at for a 3500+ pound sports sedan with a mid-sized V6 and front wheel drive. You did fine.
Bruce
10-13-2008, 07:06 PM
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Bruce
10-13-2008, 07:13 PM
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Bridgestone 960 all-seasons.
No. I never do that. Just clean them for a half-second or so. Traction wasn't the issue, though, unless you're counting traction between the pressure plate and disc.
Bruce
No. I never do that. Just clean them for a half-second or so. Traction wasn't the issue, though, unless you're counting traction between the pressure plate and disc.
Bruce
10-13-2008, 08:42 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Your ET was better because your 60' was better. Your mph was lower because rising temps took away some horsepower, as you noted the worsening air density. Our FWD hurts our launches for sure. One big help you can do is take off the plastic engine cover and ice down the manifold before running.
10-13-2008, 09:52 PM
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Your ET was better because your 60' was better. Your mph was lower because rising temps took away some horsepower, as you noted the worsening air density. Our FWD hurts our launches for sure. One big help you can do is take off the plastic engine cover and ice down the manifold before running.
In addition, doing the math, the mph for the second run was exactly where it should be, given the change in air density, but the clutch was slipping just enough to negate the advantage of powershifting. In my experience, dabbing the clutch and powershifting is generally good for between one and two mph in cars at this level of performance, unless you run into valve float, which is no longer of concern in today's cars with rev limiters.
In any event, a 14.07 will stand for me in this car, even though a 2.25 short can't be close to full stock potential. It'll never be at a drag strip again.
Bruce
10-13-2008, 10:25 PM
#17
Team Owner
With a great driver an decent tires, a 1.9 60' should be possible assuming the clutch doesn't slip. That would be solid 13 second territory.
As sad as it was we had a Honda vs Turbo Buick meet with about 100 examples of each. We got tired of racing Hondas so the officials let us race 60' on foot..... seriously. There were a number of examples of us outrunning the FWD Hondas on foot to the 60' mark.
As sad as it was we had a Honda vs Turbo Buick meet with about 100 examples of each. We got tired of racing Hondas so the officials let us race 60' on foot..... seriously. There were a number of examples of us outrunning the FWD Hondas on foot to the 60' mark.
10-13-2008, 11:28 PM
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10-13-2008, 11:41 PM
#20
Team Owner
Actually, I believe it's been done by a nearly stock TL with non drag radials tires. Throw some drag radials on there and you have a 13 second car.
10-14-2008, 12:22 AM
#22
Power Shift: Like a Speed Shift, but the driver's foot stays planted in the throttle the entire time.
How does that work? Keep your foot on the gas pedal the whole time, while pressing the clutch in during shifts? When I do that, as soon as I hit the clutch, the rpm zips to mad redline instantly....
10-14-2008, 04:50 AM
#23
Registered Member
When I was racing my '66 396 Chevelle, I never power shifted. I speed shifted because I could do it very quickly with my setup (which was stock). It just lended itself to my particular style of speed shifting, which involved my whole body throwing the shift.
I would advise against power shifting the TL or other similar modern cars for the reasons above.
10-14-2008, 04:56 AM
#24
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This most likely explains the clutch slipping you experienced. TL's have a built in system which counteracts sudden, high stress clutch engagement (as in a power shift or even speed shift) in order to dampen the shock to clutch assembly and the rest of the drive train. If you examine a TL clutch disk, you'll notice that there are no torque dissipation springs arrayed around the inner hub like most every other clutch disk. So the hydraulic system does this instead. In other words, the system interceded with your rapid engagement and forced the clutch not to clamp as quickly so as to relieve shock, resulting in the slip you experienced.
10-14-2008, 08:47 AM
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This most likely explains the clutch slipping you experienced. TL's have a built in system which counteracts sudden, high stress clutch engagement (as in a power shift or even speed shift) in order to dampen the shock to clutch assembly and the rest of the drive train. If you examine a TL clutch disk, you'll notice that there are no torque dissipation springs arrayed around the inner hub like most every other clutch disk. So the hydraulic system does this instead. In other words, the system interceded with your rapid engagement and forced the clutch not to clamp as quickly so as to relieve shock, resulting in the slip you experienced.
Just another data point making the case that this isn't a drag car.
Bruce
10-14-2008, 09:33 AM
#26
Team Owner
This most likely explains the clutch slipping you experienced. TL's have a built in system which counteracts sudden, high stress clutch engagement (as in a power shift or even speed shift) in order to dampen the shock to clutch assembly and the rest of the drive train. If you examine a TL clutch disk, you'll notice that there are no torque dissipation springs arrayed around the inner hub like most every other clutch disk. So the hydraulic system does this instead. In other words, the system interceded with your rapid engagement and forced the clutch not to clamp as quickly so as to relieve shock, resulting in the slip you experienced.
10-14-2008, 09:38 AM
#27
Team Owner
This most likely explains the clutch slipping you experienced. TL's have a built in system which counteracts sudden, high stress clutch engagement (as in a power shift or even speed shift) in order to dampen the shock to clutch assembly and the rest of the drive train. If you examine a TL clutch disk, you'll notice that there are no torque dissipation springs arrayed around the inner hub like most every other clutch disk. So the hydraulic system does this instead. In other words, the system interceded with your rapid engagement and forced the clutch not to clamp as quickly so as to relieve shock, resulting in the slip you experienced.
10-14-2008, 10:29 AM
#28
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Two things:
I don't think the TL can stand up to slicks & expect you would start breaking drive like parts.
I know the "S" 6MT has a restrictor valve in the clutch hydraulic system but am not sure the non-S 6MT has one.
I don't think the TL can stand up to slicks & expect you would start breaking drive like parts.
I know the "S" 6MT has a restrictor valve in the clutch hydraulic system but am not sure the non-S 6MT has one.
10-14-2008, 03:54 PM
#30
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10-14-2008, 03:56 PM
#31
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But man, a 14.07 is one heck of a nice time.
10-14-2008, 04:12 PM
#32
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In the mid '80 when my race car was all over my garage floor I ran my wife's Caddy Fleetwood Brougham 4 door barge in the bracket races at Englishtown Raceway Park.
Its hard to remember the times & speed now but they were in the 85mph/18.50 seconds range. Ran it 4 weeks in a row & have 4 class winner trophies on my shelf.
To me its not about how fast the cars are but how close the competition is.
10-18-2008, 11:15 AM
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Well, perhaps I should change the title of this thread to:
"Bruce Augenstein: Not a star on the drag strip"
Succumbing to temptation, I showed up at Englishtown last night, and although a TL-S may in fact have a 13.9 in it, this driver doesn't.
I began with an initial 14.88 (forgot to disable traction control), followed by a smoking-clutch 14.60. Then, on the third pass with me determined to go for it, I pop the clutch at about 3000 rpm, and, proving that traction is good, the car wheelhops its way to stardom, with a 2.50 short and a 14.99.
On that run, wheelhop was so bad that the inner sunshade panel ratcheted its way back to about half way open.
I hereby challenge anybody to do better.
I finally do something sort of OK with a 14.15 at 99.88, with a 2.30 short, but all in all, the partnership of Augenstein and Acura will never be a hot stock buy.
Hey, what the heck. I'll settle for that 14.07 at Maple Grove and call it done.
Bruce
"Bruce Augenstein: Not a star on the drag strip"
Succumbing to temptation, I showed up at Englishtown last night, and although a TL-S may in fact have a 13.9 in it, this driver doesn't.
I began with an initial 14.88 (forgot to disable traction control), followed by a smoking-clutch 14.60. Then, on the third pass with me determined to go for it, I pop the clutch at about 3000 rpm, and, proving that traction is good, the car wheelhops its way to stardom, with a 2.50 short and a 14.99.
On that run, wheelhop was so bad that the inner sunshade panel ratcheted its way back to about half way open.
I hereby challenge anybody to do better.
I finally do something sort of OK with a 14.15 at 99.88, with a 2.30 short, but all in all, the partnership of Augenstein and Acura will never be a hot stock buy.
Hey, what the heck. I'll settle for that 14.07 at Maple Grove and call it done.
Bruce
10-19-2008, 12:38 AM
#36
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I tried this 'power shifting' and man... I don't get it!
Like someone said it the rpm just zips to redline.. then when I shifted it was at 6---and my foot stayed planted on the throttle. Thought I'd mess something up so I tried 'power shifting' into the next gear--same thing. Then I tried driving normally and it felt as if I was still somewhere in that rpm-range [did not check RPM at this time].
After the shaninigan... I smelt something burning... not sure what it is.
Could be my tires [it was after a short rain so I'm not sure].. or my clutch... or just my 9999KM overdue oil.
Like someone said it the rpm just zips to redline.. then when I shifted it was at 6---and my foot stayed planted on the throttle. Thought I'd mess something up so I tried 'power shifting' into the next gear--same thing. Then I tried driving normally and it felt as if I was still somewhere in that rpm-range [did not check RPM at this time].
After the shaninigan... I smelt something burning... not sure what it is.
Could be my tires [it was after a short rain so I'm not sure].. or my clutch... or just my 9999KM overdue oil.
10-19-2008, 08:23 AM
#37
Registered Member
I tried this 'power shifting' and man... I don't get it!
Like someone said it the rpm just zips to redline.. then when I shifted it was at 6---and my foot stayed planted on the throttle. Thought I'd mess something up so I tried 'power shifting' into the next gear--same thing. Then I tried driving normally and it felt as if I was still somewhere in that rpm-range [did not check RPM at this time].
After the shaninigan... I smelt something burning... not sure what it is.
Could be my tires [it was after a short rain so I'm not sure].. or my clutch... or just my 9999KM overdue oil.
Like someone said it the rpm just zips to redline.. then when I shifted it was at 6---and my foot stayed planted on the throttle. Thought I'd mess something up so I tried 'power shifting' into the next gear--same thing. Then I tried driving normally and it felt as if I was still somewhere in that rpm-range [did not check RPM at this time].
After the shaninigan... I smelt something burning... not sure what it is.
Could be my tires [it was after a short rain so I'm not sure].. or my clutch... or just my 9999KM overdue oil.
The supercars of the mid-60's could take this kind of abuse time after time because their drive trains were built far better (as in stronger) that what we have in cars like the TL. And they were rear wheel drive cars so their parts were much stronger and built of sterner stuff. Some of you may flame me with this, but it's true. There is no way the manual transmission in our TL's is even a close match to a Muncie 4-speed of that era. The car manufacturers who were building those supercars knew who bought them and what was going to be done with them on weekends.. and I don't mean granny going to the grocery store. And even though I owned a genuine supercar at the time, even I refrained from power shifting it because it was also my daily street machine. I speed shifted and did that quite fast.
Once again gentlemen, learn the art of speed shifting and leave power shifting along with your TL's. These cars were not built for this.
10-19-2008, 11:18 AM
#38
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Sir, I highly recommend that you refrain from power shift the TL or any similar such car. They are not designed for this type of brutal activity and you are putting your entire drive train, and your engine, in serious jeopardy by doing this.
The supercars of the mid-60's could take this kind of abuse time after time because their drive trains were built far better (as in stronger) that what we have in cars like the TL. And they were rear wheel drive cars so their parts were much stronger and built of sterner stuff. Some of you may flame me with this, but it's true. There is no way the manual transmission in our TL's is even a close match to a Muncie 4-speed of that era. The car manufacturers who were building those supercars knew who bought them and what was going to be done with them on weekends.. and I don't mean granny going to the grocery store. And even though I owned a genuine supercar at the time, even I refrained from power shifting it because it was also my daily street machine. I speed shifted and did that quite fast.
Once again gentlemen, learn the art of speed shifting and leave power shifting along with your TL's. These cars were not built for this.
The supercars of the mid-60's could take this kind of abuse time after time because their drive trains were built far better (as in stronger) that what we have in cars like the TL. And they were rear wheel drive cars so their parts were much stronger and built of sterner stuff. Some of you may flame me with this, but it's true. There is no way the manual transmission in our TL's is even a close match to a Muncie 4-speed of that era. The car manufacturers who were building those supercars knew who bought them and what was going to be done with them on weekends.. and I don't mean granny going to the grocery store. And even though I owned a genuine supercar at the time, even I refrained from power shifting it because it was also my daily street machine. I speed shifted and did that quite fast.
Once again gentlemen, learn the art of speed shifting and leave power shifting along with your TL's. These cars were not built for this.
Power shifting is just too risky.
10-19-2008, 02:19 PM
#39
Registered Member
When I go through the gears with my TL, I do so quickly, but I would not call it speed shifting since the shifter and linkage limits my actions in that area.
10-19-2008, 07:05 PM
#40
Man if I were to throw my whole upper body weight and strength into the shifter stick, I would break the stick off...lol. I still don't understand why you gotta do this instead of just quick rapid shifting as it hits redline.
Bang shift: Using only the clutch at launch and speedshifting through gears without the clutch.