mu1980

Alright, whip 'em out. Let's see which of you has the bigger "member" and settle this once and for all.

ubnpast

Are you fucking stupid? I said PM me if you have any problems with what I say. I am not taking up someone elses thread.

[QUOTE=avs007]Just in case you think that site is biased, here are a few more:

Where the fuck does it say anything about down shifting?


Again, Where the fuck does it say anything about down shifting?

Are you fucking stupid?


You keep trying to post nonsense, are you mentally retarted? Again, says nothing about sownshifting.


FYI all of your shitty sources say absolutly nothing about downshifting. If you want to argue please PM me...

dukester

I have an 02 TL, front wheel drive of course. I bought it used 2.5 years ago. The stock michelins where poor in the rain an useless in the snow. I purchased some take off rims from the dealer from a 98 TL, got them on the cheap and then mounted Nokian Hakkapeliitta snows. This car with those tires has no issues cruising the thruway at 65 MPH in up to a foot of fresh snow or packed snow, no matter. They are not studded but manage ice really well. For the summer I have Yokohamas AVID V4s and they are amazing in the rain and don't squeal when pushed in corners like the michelins did. The thing about any car in the snow is placed heavily on the rubber it rides on. For what It's worth...

avs007

I'm sorry that you don't have a grasp of basic deductive reasonign. These articles said that 4WD/AWD does not help you stop faster. That wouldINCLUDE downshifting. If downshifting helps you slowdown faster, they would've mentioned that, considering these articles were talking about all the other benafits of AWD/4WD/etc. Unless you think that all of these sites had something to gain by hiding facts from you.

Using your logic, I could say that the TL's highway mileage is actually better than reported by whatever source that doesn't explicitely state that they actually put the car in 6th gear.

But fine... Read this article .

This is a quote from Ford's 4WD technical specialist. You'd think if what you say is true, he would mention it.

avs007

You are so gungho on keeping the thread on topic, yet you are the one that started this whole AWD is better for stopping, when the TL does not even come in AWD.

avs007

And just for clarity sake, Popular Science has an article, that actually says what you describe is a myth.

And before you say it doesn't explicitly talk about downshifting, it says:

If it was good at stopping, they would've put a 3rd item in there. But wait, it says:

Which reinforces the previous claim that AWD/4WD only provides benafits when trying to move, not stop.

avs007

(To keep this on-topic).

Completely agree. If you have the Michelin Energy MXV4 remove them now. They suck in the rain (hydorplane easily), and suck even more in the snow. (Wife got stuck in our old 2G TL with these tires many times)

The Michelin Pilot HXMX tires that came on our 3G TL aren't that much better, as my wife still got stuck in the snow. (I also remember reading complains about it's wet traction) Even without snow-tires, I had no problems in the snow with our non AWD vehicles, and rescued my wife.

I was running Contintental ContiExtremeContact tires on my other car at the time. ABS didn't engage when I did a few test panic stops in the deep snow by our house. I can only imagine how much better actual snow-tires would've been. I didnt' dare try to venture out when we got covered with 2" of freezing rain. I'm not sure how much traction a non-studded snow tire will get you on pure glazed ice, but I've never run one either, so I don't know.

ubnpast

Learn to fucking read and type. Im sorry you dont have a mind for your own self reasoning. Yet in your articles, NOT 1 of them say they they tested downshifting .

If you would have read (Im not sure if you did or not, you must have short term memmory), but my first post is the 61st one in, I was responding to a post made by massr1, and my post came after these (BTW about your popular science articles, some AWD cars only engage in true AWD when tires slip, Im not commenting on behalf of those because I have never driven one, but I am speaking from my experience with full time AWD):

avs007

Fine, than read this article published by the US Navy. It explicitly says to NOT downshift to slow down on snow/ice. It also talks about the best ways to slow down, and it actually recommends putting the car in neutral, or clutching the car. That is the exact opposite of downshifting.

US Army also says not to downshift while going down a snowy hill, as it says it can cause you to lose control.

National Road Safety Foundation also recommends shifting into neutral while braking in extreme weather conditions as well.

California Traffic School also says not to downshift in wintry conditions.

Now you're probably going to say, "But it didn't say if this was for AWD or 2WD"...

1.) Aren't a lot of millitary vehicles full time AWD?
2.) Earlier you argued that ABS sucks so bad, that it's better to engine brake to slow down. Why would it matter if it's 2wd or 4wd? Worried that the tires might slide? Didn't you argue that sliding is better than locking/unlocking?

case31

Those Continentals came on a Nissan I used to own. After my first drive in bad weather, I knew I had to get rid of them. A single drop of rain could fall 3 miles away and the tires would spin out of control.

We had our first dusting of snow in Indianapolis since I bought my 04 (Bridgestone tires), and it did ok. The road I had to take to get to work has many stop signs. A little spinning to get started, but VSA helped me stay on track. I gave myself plenty of room to stop in case I started to slide, but I had no problems as I did not need the ABS to engage.

As for the other drivers, 130 accidents on the morning commute. Most of them were probably SUV drivers from the northern burbs.

massr1

Yep I'm 18 and obviously know a lot more about driving dynamics than you do. The way you reason sounds like your 12; maybe that's why you won't display your age. Your "downshifting technique" is total bullshit so stop arguing because you make no sense whatsoever.

ubnpast

This is what they said:
Anyone that has an awd car and knows when you are sliding sideways to give it gas, as this is the only thing that is going to keep you straight. Yet it says not to use the brakes or transmission. IMO these people dont know what they are talking about, but looks like were both SOL here.

It said "When driving down hill on ice use low gear instead of brakes". So it says not to use brakes on ice, and Ice is more slippery than snow, so downshifting on snow can work better than brakes.

They in fact said:
Which means that brakes are less effective...

This website is more or less for people that dont know anything about cars, 101 basics...
They said:
And they also said: As I said before its probably not a good idea to go 30-40 mph and put the car in 1st.

Nope.
1. I, not sure what the military has, probably alot of 2x4's and only 4x4's in situations where traction is needed, but I dont have any knowledge with that.
2. downshifting with 2wd will only use 2 wheels to slow the car, causing you to possibly loose control easier than 4wd or full time awd systems which all the wheels turn and slow down to keep you in a straight line. Sure with 2wd the tires will slide. I never said anything about sliding is better than locking and unlocking.

ubnpast

I bet. Yes, you found out I am like 12, shit, that's why I have so much knowledge/experience, because I am not even old enough to drive .
What I am saying may be considered total bullshit, senseless, and worthless only by the ignorant uneducated dumbasses, such as yourself .

Legend2TL

IMO, you have truely proven you do not know what you are talking about on the this topic. Everything written in that Navy paragraph is correct for regaining control of a sliding car.

The purpose of declutching and releasing the brakes is simple physics 101 and vehicle dynamics.
1) Once a tire has lost traction and slides it changes from a static friction force to a dynamic friction force. With rubber on almost any surface (with the two exceptions of fresh snow and gravel), static friction coefficient is less than dynamic. The NTSHA article I listed in post #81 (?) lists the range of dynamic and static friction coefficients on many different surfaces.
2) So once you start to slide the friction force circle (the forces acting on the tire contact patch) need to be reduced until static friction forces can regain control of the tire. That means to remove all brakes and drivetrain forces on the tire. This removes the vehicle acceleration/deceleration forces on the tire. Stepping on the gas or brakes is the last thing to do since that increase the forces on the contact patch which only prevails the dynamic friction configuration of the tire patch.
3) Once that occurs and and the tire is steered in the direction of the skid, static friction configuration can be regained and the vehicle steering control is regained.

ubnpast

What the fuck are you talking about, when an awd car starts going sideways the only way to regain control is to keep the pedal to the metal and steer out of it, if not your up shits creek.

Legend2TL

I'm talking about simple physics, keeping the accelerator to the floor will keep tire in a dynamic friction state and there will be no steering control.

Try to learn some basic physics on how tires work, there's alot of stuff out there on the web. Here is a great article that explains the friction circle of a tire and how a vehicle uses it to accelerate/decelerate/turn.
http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/07-Circle.html


BTW, profanity is not required to understand physics

007TL-S

Buy the TL and keep it in the garage at winter time !.....and bring it out on decent day's !.....and drive an old front wheel drive whooptie(Honda/Toyota ) to work like me , which would save your car from being in possible accident's!.....plus saves your car from the nasty salt!

007TL-S

only some common sense!

avs007

You sure it was the ContiExtremeContact? Because the other Continental tires, (like the Sport Contact), had reviews that talked about poor rain performance. The ExtremeContact on the other hand, I never had issues like that.

avs007

And you said I can't read If you would've bothered to read the rest of the article, you would've seen that the very next sentence said:

They said to downshift before going down the hill. That is different than while going down the hill. They said to downshift before going down the hill, so that you can minimize your car from accelerating out of control going down the hill.


Again if you actually read the article, you would see that #5 says:

And which part of this statement says to downshift while on the ice to slow down?

Just because the tires are turning at the same speed doesn't mean you will be going in a straight line. When you slow down, weight shifts forward. This means the back end will have even less traction than the front. Since the "braking" is done evenly as you put it, the back end can still slide and swing around the front. In actuallity, the fronts can slide too. Just because the wheels slows down at a uniform ratedoes not mean the car slows down at the same rate.

So if you agree that sliding is not better than locking-unlocking, why are you arguing that downshifting will stop you better? If you have enough traction to allow the wheels to turn slower, then the abs won't lock/unlock, and it will have the same effect.

If you don't have enough traction for downshifting to slowdown the wheels, then you'll start skidding. Since you just said locking/unlocking is preferable to skidding, than ABS will allow you to stop skidding. With downshifting if you start skidding, it's pretty much game over.

tidus888

Some snow in TORONTO here.... so for the first time... the TL is in snow =)

tested out the TCS... maybe i am no getting it right... it did a 360!~!!

this is what i did

one a straight road... i tried to steer left-right-left to make the car fishtail! then the next thing i know... TCS is in action.. and made my car go 360... lol

am i suppose to counter steer like on cars without TCS or what?

avs007

So are you saying to point the wheel towards the curb you are sliding towards with the pedal floored? Or are you saying to point the wheel in the direction you wish the car would go, with the pedal floored?

If it's the 1st, then you will accelerate towards the curb, not slow down, which means you'll be even more likely to hit it.

If it's the second... Then good-luck with that. The front wheel will be spinning wildly, taking away any traction that is needed to actually steer the car. And the back wheels will just push you towards the curb faster.

avs007

Even with stability control you still need to counter steer to get the wheels pointed in the correct direction so that VSA can do it's job. VSA will try to shift the weight of the car to get the tail back in line. If your wheels are not pointing in the right direction, you will slide out of control. The key is to not over-react when counter-steering, and to react quickly. I took some performance driving classes a while back. They basically said you have a window to try and save a slide. Once the back end passes the point of no-return, no amount of counter-steering will save you.

ubnpast

I did, but there is no need to post useless information.


How is it different, you are still traveling down the hill, it may be different in terms of handling for inexperienced drivers. Accelerating out of control? LMAO, did you make that site up yourself?



Well, I actually did read the article. Shift into neutral, are they talking about an automatic? I am assuming so, thats why it doesnt make any sense.

Right here: Like I said before, I would not do this around a corner, but only going straight. Weight shifts foward, thats a good thing for better traction for steering... The tires may only possibly slide on ice with an inexperienced driver downshifting to an extreamly low gear for a high rate of speed. Sooner or later the car will slow down to the same rate, its more effective than abs IMO.


Who said the car has to be sliding? It will not if you downshift to the correct gear. Because it works for most drivers/cars. Shit, the abs would come on driving on dry pavement, nevermind snow. Also could have been a poorly designed abs system for a 4000 lb car, but I am saying downshifting worked better for me when I had to stop in the shortest distance possible.

The wheels will grip, you wont start skidding because like I said before, you dont go 35 mph and put the car in 1st, only idiots would do that.

ubnpast

I dont give a shit how tires work, learn how an awd system works. You must keep your foot in it when an awd car becomes out of shape. Yes it is required because of people like you who are so fucking stupid.

ubnpast

Please explain which part of "this car" is sliding towards the curb. If you are sliding sideways and the front corner is will hit it within 6 seconds, yes steer away and floor it. I am saying with an awd car, you must steer out of what ever you got yourself into, so yes point and floor...

Even in 3rd gear the car would be ok, only if the engine had enough power to spin the tires and keep them spinning. Almost all awd cars have some type of limited slip or vc differential(s), so theres no need to worry about spining tires. An awd car actually steers better when the tires are spinning (in a specified direction), if you are sliding sideways and let off the gas, you are basically fucked to say the least.

EDIT: The thing is to try and whip the car around so the back tires are not pushing towards anything. This can be a bad situation if not handled correctly.
About the vc:

avs007

You honestly don't know the different between downshifting before starting a descent, and downshifting in the middle of one?

So you are saying that people don't descend a steep hill in low gear, to prevent the car from accelerating? You just lost all your credibility.

If you would've read all the articles, you would have seen that it said to push the clutch in for manuals, and shift to neutral for automatics.

It probably doesn't make any sense to you, because you don't understand simple physics.

You make it sound weight wouldn't shift forward for better traction for steering when you hit the brakes.

That's rediculous. If you are saying that easing the clutch to prevent a sudden change in speed won't cause lockup, then neither will gently applying the brakes.

Absolutely false. Traction has zero to do with how you apply force.

Perhaps you should file a patent on a system where you get rid of the brakes, and instead connect the brake pedal to a mechanism that automatically downshifts for you through the gears.

avs007

That is the dumbest thing you can do. The more you floor it, the lower you are making the coeficient of friction, which means the less traction you have. The more you dedicate to accelerating, the less you'll have for steering. Why do you think you need to have the rear-wheels spinning to do a drift? Because the spinning wheel lowers the co-efficient of friction with the ground.

Try this simple excercise... Find a motorcycle... Try to push the rear tire sideways when the bike is still. Now squeeze the front brake and punch the throttle and smoke up the rear tires, and try to push the tire sideways. You'll notice that you can practically use a single finger to push the back of the bike sideways when the back tires are spinning like that. That's the difference between static friction and kinetic friction.

avs007

That's like saying:

Connect an electric motor to a generator, and the generator to the electric motor. Now you have free electricity. I don't care how the laws of thermodynamics work, learn how a generator works.

avs007

Here is something you did not know. That statement is wrong. What you describe is part-time 4wd. Only part-time 4wd locks the front and rear axles. (Some full-time 4WD have a manual locker) That's why it's called part time, becuase you can only use it part time, because the wheels will bind if you try to turn.

AWD systems never lock the front and rear axles. They typically use a viscous coupler. They do this, because it needs to allow the 4 wheels to rotate at different speeds, so you can actually drive on dry pavement.

A Symetric AWD system has a non-lockable center diff. An Asymetric AWD only sends power to one axle until slip is detected.

That's why you can't "turn off" AWD, becuase there is nothing to turn off. It's just a viscous coupler.

Legend2TL

I already know how 4WD systems work (part-time, full-time, all-wheel) along with electronic, mechanical, and viscous differentials. Again your choice of dialog proves your lack of knowledge of this topic. Try to learn some physics about vehicle dynamics and you may actually learn something instead of providing fact-less counterpoints in this discussion.

case31

Positive. I replaced them with Michelin Pilots (I don't remember the exact model) and the car handled much better. That Nissan () has since been replaced by a Honda Pilot...and it won't be missed!

!DEja Vu!

ubnpast

It doesnt matter where the fuck you are, only too n00bs who dont know how to handle their car, due to the difference in traction.

My bad, misread your post.


But if in fact you have read all of them and remember what they say, it says to use a lower gear . Which means you have to downshift to get to one.

I was saying it doesnt make any sense that you can compare an auto and a manual trans...

Never said thay. Abs only is there for mostly steering control and unexperienced drivers .

I never said applying the brakes will give you full lockup . Donshifting will not give you full lockup either, unless your tc locks up.


Zero to do? Is there any other word you could have chosen, im not following your broken english.


Well I know of one, but doesnt downshift, same concept... a jake brake.

ubnpast

You are really fucking stupid. Please dont post if you have never driven an all wheel drive car. Think of it as drifting, drifting is hard to control if you're not experienced in doing it, makes sure you have a lot of run off room as a beginner (such as yourself).
When out of shape in an awd car, you better keep your foot in it because it will always pull out. Is a motor cycle awd? NO, you cant compare apples to oranges...

ubnpast

First off you must know how awd works in order for the tires to do thier job.

ubnpast

I know you cant turn it off, I never said that . Awd axles are always locked when slippage is detected.

VT06TL

Not sure if you ever got a straight answer on this or not. But the temperature dropped to the 20's here in Vermont and we got over an inch of snow. My 06 TL with the all seasons did get me where I needed to go but the traction control light was blicking like crazy and I spun alot, if your in New Hampshire you will need snow tires. I am getting mine Wednesday.

trancemission

Hey guys from this point forward if you cant post without personal attacks dont post.

First warning...

mu1980

I had no spinning or stopping problems around town with mine and the supposedly-crappy Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires when we got about 7 inches of snow here in WI last week. I was driving on plowed roads, but there was still about an inch or two of packed slush and snow/ice on the roads.

If you don't try to get going from a stop or try to come to a stop as if the road is dry and you take it easy.. you'll be fine. The same goes for highways and regular 55-mph roads.

Speed limits are for when the road is dry, not under all conditions. I don't care what tires you have or what type of vehicle you have, if you're going the speed limit or faster on snowy/slushy/icy roads.. you're an idiot and just asking for an accident or to spin out. Your fancy snow tires and fancy technology on the car always works until it doesn't.. and road conditions in the winter right after a considerable storm are far from consistent or predictable.