scelipt

I am writing this thread in hopes of creating a forum for just people with the same ridiculous problem I am having. I hope people have had some success in solving this problem, and can help shed some some light on it so we can resolve ours.
I picked up my car this monday with the 18 inch rims. My tires (as of this moment ) are the continental ContiExtremeContact 245/40/18. When I left the dealership I almost right away noticed this at times there was a horrible vibration.
On Thursday I went to the dealer and he rebalanced all the tires car. I noticed an immediate improvement. However as I approached 60-70mph it came back. WORSE than before, and on top of that it made it was even worse than before at lower speeds.
My service guy is excellent and he has the North East rep down today on Long Island as a result of my phone call telling him problem was still there. He had me do some driving tests on my car on the way with the tranny 2 rule that out. (Which it did) and we know its not the engine b/c he rand a full diagnostic on it yesterday.
Today they set up a loaner with the same exact description as mine. They are out test driving it right now. Wait and see I guess.

My questions to all of you are as follows
1) Did any of you have luck with different tires on Acuras 18's?
2) I so what make and model and size were those tire?
3) If you found it was not the tires or the tranny what was it?
4) I heard that the rims could be the problem, has anyone else.


PS If this became a sticky it would great and save disheartened people time.

Thanks to all

Scelipt

shingles

Ask the dealership to find a place that has a Hunter GSP9700 balance machine and do a road force balance on it. Then see if the vibration is still there.

lakeman

There is a good chance you threw a weight. (Often aluminum wheels are balanced with "stick on" weights and they can be thrown off easily.) It's happened to me before.

SSH

I second this. This machine fixed the vibration problems I was having with my WRX aftermarket wheels and low-profile tires.

If you are in the Seattle area, Discount Tires on Bel-Red road in Bellevue has one.

http://www.gsp9700.com

HacksawHilliard

Well that explains why I have not experienced the vibration issue. I got my Toyos at the local Les Schwab Tire outlet. All the franchises have the GSP9700.

brucehallberg

For whatever it's worth, I seem to also have a speed-related vibration (more like a very rapid low-amplitude shaking) that feels like a balance problem, but I think is not. I got my car a little under two weeks ago, and it's been present since delivery. I had the car back to the dealer to rebalance (it "feels" like a balance problem) with no improvement. Then I had a good tire shop do a Hunter GPS9700 Load Force Balance. They got all wheels to 4-6lbs of load force, and told me anything under 15 is good (one wheel was 16, another was 21 before they adjusted). Slight improvement (perhaps), but the basic problem is still there, and is large enough that it's driving me a little nuts. I otherwise really like this car. My next step, I think, is to go road test with the dealer and perhaps try another car or two there to see if it's car- or model-specific. I also have a very remote hope that more miles might ameliorate, but I think this is doubtful.

Since both balances didn't fix the problem, and since I was told that the GPS9700 would find out of round conditions in either tire or wheel (and didn't) I'm starting to think it's something screwy in the suspension, but have no idea what it could be there. I don't think it's tires, and in fact since the original poster to _this_ thread seems to have the same problem as me (despite his having Contis on 18", and my having the EL42s on 17" 5A) I think this supports this conclusion. I've also eliminated engine or tranny as being the cause (downshifting or putting into neutral doesn't affect). If anything, grooved pavement reduces the problem somewhat, but it's still there, so I don't think it's tire tread pattern.

Can anyone hypothesize what in a suspension could cause a vibration/rapid low-force shaking that barely starts around 65mph and is very evident at >=80mph over smooth or grooved freeway pavement that would feel like a balance problem but is not?

One other thought: the tire shop that did the GPS9700 balance did not think the wheel locks could be a cause, but I think I may try taking them off anyway to see if that could be it. Of course the wheel locks are near the center of vibration, but also aren't on the wheel when they balance it, but what the heck: could this be a cause? (I think this is remote, but thought I'd mention it as a possible common factor for the people with this problem).

--Bruce

brucehallberg

Whoops, I meant near the center of rotation.

chas083

I had vibration problems since day 1. I have 4000 miles on the car now.
Definitely worse when cold and tires not warmed up. (I get on the freeway within .5 miles of leaving home and work.) Dealer rebalance did not work. Took to tire shop and they found 2 of the EL-42s out of round. I decided at that point , because of the unceasing problem that I would try the Conti Extreme Contacts. Still no improvement. Road Forced balanced , but still exibited flat spot vibrations. Next EL-42s put back on ( 2 new ones) . Better but still flatspot type vibrations. Next replaced with Michelin Pilot Sport A/Ss. Vibration gone and no flat spots. SMOOTH! The question is why? One possible explanation is is that Pilot Sports don' t use nylon belts that I've been told may have a memory, thus making them more likely to flat spot.

timnguyen9

Looks like (?) the Continentals may also exhibit flatspotting/vibration like the Turanza EL42 tires. Many of the owners here that have 17" Turanzas EL42 have been waiting for a resolution from Acura. Some who have gone ahead and replaced their 17s themselves with a different tire, have noticed the vibration goes away! But I would wait on the results of the Hunter GPS9700 Load Force Balance before making a more informed opinion.

DaveB99

Here's another data point guys:

I have 5AT. EL42's. Flat spot problem.

Look at tirerack and I see the Turanza LS-Z's are rated unbelievably. Not one comment says flat spots on all the customer comments. They also have 30 day trial.

So I say to myself what the heck let me give the LS-Z's a try. I wanted a quiet tire that is why I chose it over the A/S Sport. I order 235/45/17's.

Lug the tires over to Acura. They put them on. Take the car and its awesome. Real nice quiet ride. Great tires.

Wake up this morning. Get on highway. Vibration city. Flat spot sure enough.

I really like this tire so I may put up with the morning flat spot irratation.

So it has got to be the nylon on the Turanza series.

I'm going to give them a try for the 30 days.

Then I will decide if I want to sacrifice the morning vibration for a great tire or return them and order the Sports (which would be a major PIA having to shell $100 bucks for putting on the Sports and then sending the Z's back to the rack)

Maybe when it warms up this spring all flat spots will go away.

I can guarantee Acura/Bridgestone will not be replacing the EL42's with my LS'z's. They may be stuck on what to replace it with and that is why no resolution has comes forth.

chas083

In comparing the EL-42s to the Michelins I notice a slight low speed ride improvement, much quieter and about the same traction on packed snow. As far as handling I assume it will be improved but have not tested yet. Definitely smoother with no flat spotting at highway speeds.

rets

I ever saw your tires in my dealer, who has Yokohama ES100 245/40ZR18 93W, too.

About Vibration, have you done the research yet? This forum has some early car owners talk this issues for a long long time. Probably those issues are about tranny, 5th gear converter, ECU software, tires, etc... no conclusion from Acura yet...

If you join those threads, you should get lots of feedback too...

May I know who's your dealer in LI? And your VIN is about #10k? Thanks.

scelipt

I wrote the origininal thread so I have some resolution to the issue at this point.
Here is what happened after I posted the thread on friday. My dealer called and said he tested my Conts and a set of Yokos on the car. They got moderate to heavy vibrations out of both tires. He tells me to come over ASAP b/c they would like to test my car and put the 17's back on the car which they are sure will fix the problem. They test my car and it is even worse than the other road tests.
This worked he put the 17's on and I drove home from the dealer without feeling like I had a vibrator stuck up my a**.
What does this mean. My build and I dont have the exact # is in the high 14's (exact # monday when I look). For those who asked my dealer is Rallye Acura in Roslyn on LI in NY. They are awesome. Service and sales winners NE 4 years running. Great crew and very know how.
My guy Mike came out to sit with me and talk (he could tell I was totally disgusted after I spent the money to upgrade). According to HIM, HIS WORDS. THEY DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER. But the word is that is the drive shaft out of each tire and once resized and RECALLED which it will be on ALL models it will remedy the problem. I said to him that it be rediculous amounts of money to do so. He says" 200 dollars a car on 20,000 units from a huge CORP is considered an easy fix. Now the tires he gave are the originals and are loaners my 18ts will stay with him until the problem is resolved. They also took the floor with 18ts off and have removed as an option with the car for now.
I dont want my money back I want those rims back so I will wait. Just for reference, they have sold over 200 units and mine was the 1ST WITH 18'S so I will wait and when they call I will get it fixed. According to The Regional Rep this is a massive problem and they are working round the clock to rectify it.

I WILL LET EVERYONE AS SOON AS I DO

Scott

rets

Scott,

We have the same dealer. All tires I saw were over there.

Actually, my first visit was kind of terrible, and I told myself I may not come back again if the 2nd visit he cannot give me the good answer. (I almost called Westchester Acura for the appointment)

A month ago, Mike told me my MIL issue was new to him, based on his experiences, he thought it's the advisory warning, which means I run my RPM too high. It's new to me, too, that Check-Engine-Light is advisory. Does that mean no one should rev your vtec engine?

A week after, if I don't call him three times to ask him checking with Acura engineers, I don't believe he will give me any clues in my 2nd visit. (I'm glad he seemed to find the way to fix my problem yesterday.)

He had the similar attitude to my memory seat issue, too. It seems we're the only TL customers going back for the service now. In that rich neighborhood, 80% of owners are just driving their cars with the limited ability to be aware of any issues. He seems kind of lazy to call engineers if my case is rare or new to him. My documentation has all the dealers' contact persons and numbers, who fix or report the similar issues already. He said it's unnecessary to call them. Whatever I said/asked to him, he would have no answer to me, and also refuse to have quick conversation to engineers. (I'm happy to know they've been more friendly to help you.)

Ok, I felt better yesterday after going for 2nd service. He seems to get some answers I need, but I still don't like his attitude.

We're the lab rats in their dealership so far. When other dealers got tons of service experiences with 04TL and seem positive to figure out the issues for customers, our dealer is apparently not capable of handling the new things. I just hope he can treat us better in the future.


P.S. Do you tint your windows there? 5AT or 6MT for your car? Mileage? if you don't mind, Thanks.

scelipt

Mine is a 5AT 290 miles and yes I tinted the windows. This is also my third car with mike. Mention my name Scott Lipton to him. He seems to like me and I have a great relationship with him. I find him very responsive to my problem and yesterday he couldn't help me fast enough. I agree about the neighborhood though. But I grew up in Port Washington so go fugure.

scelipt

I also must say that a mijority of you writing in to this thread have the 17tns on your car. Which could be tire issue. Now I am not saying it but my understanding is that it is far worse with the 18tns than the 17tns.

Please also keep in mind that my problem happened all the time from 50 to 80 getting worse as you went.

People also have asked if it fixex the problem. Yes the 17tns mad a major difference but my dealer put Michs on my car so I hopefully would not have to deal with a flat spotting problem to.

And ret I wrote you back about the same dealer let me know we should talk

scelipt

Hey all I was hoping to catch people with stories from around the country. I saw a post from So Cal so I hope this will push thiS thread back to the top so more people can respond

And thanks to all of you out there for helping myself and others with your stories

Scott

rets

scelipt,

Out of topic for a while, did you get your tint from Mike? $310?

Do you have felt installed? He told me it's unnecessary to have it.....

http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=65819

scelipt

Mike installed the tint. Not sure if its felt but non metallic and came out mint

scelipt

Just an update for anyone who is interested. Spoke with my dealer today, and got a call form Acura. They are aware and working on the problem and should have an answer sometime in the next few weeks. I have decided to wait and see what they come back with but will have tosee. So far I a impressed by they Acura is handling this. They are responsive and seem concerned.

I will keep everyone posted

Scott

scelipt

Have amerry Christmas and Happy new year everyone except acura

fsconsult

Here..Here...Merry Christmas

and may Acura get visited by the 3 Ghosts of Christmas:

1. Ghost of engine vibrations
2. Ghost of tire/rim vibrations
3, Ghost of mystery vibrations

Sleep well Acura..........

scelipt

Just movin up

rjc01tl

It's cold here in Missouri so I decided to check the tire pressure in the wife's 2003 Chrysler minivan (I know, you don't have to say it). Imagine my surprise when I was looking at EL-42's on all four corners.

need4spd

EL - 42's are on many cars, but here is the real problem that I think I figured out based on conversations with several tire dealers regarding ONLY the cold flat spotting (not the other vibration issues).

1. Our tires are W speed rated (up to 168mph)
2. Tire makers are switching to nylon for a belt over wrap to keep the belt package in order durring high speed runs for this high 168mph rating!
3. For the Z, Y and W ratings, most makers have switched to NYLON (vs rayon or polyamid) as it has a more consistant effect and keeps the belt package more consistant at high speeds. They nylon constricts more than others at high temps.
4. Side effect of Nylon is that it has a memory effect when cold (below 50 F) and creates cold flat spotting (this happens in multiple Z, W and Y rated tires and tire dealers hate when it gets under 50 F as the calls come in.
5. Others (and other cars) who have the EL-42's may not have the same problem as us, as there are H rated versions of the EL-42 that do not use the nylon belt over wrap.
6. Acura engineers should have known this (they are experts after all in automotive issues) and NOT allowed Bridgestone to use the nylon belt overwrap.
7. So if you are about to replace your tires, and worry about cold flat spots, don't select a tire that has nylon belts!

This is my theory, based on several discussions, but so far seems the most feasable for COLD FLAT SPOTTING ONLY.

scelipt

I agree with need4spd. His theory sound just like whjat I was hearing when I first started this thread. My only issue is that my vibrations were with the 18 inch tires not the 17 inch tires. You gus with 17tns in your car even with those bridgestones on have good compared to what I was dealing with. I have this flatspotting issue and it is not so bad compared to before. These tires figure it out in 3-4 minutes and then thank g-d I am vibration free. That does not mean that I dont think they should replace those tires. They should, but it only brings me to the fact of them not having an answer for vibrations in any 18 inch tires. The only tire combo with the 18 inch rims that does not virate all the time are the Toyo Proxes. Now I will have to wait for an answer on those issues. But they seem to be much farther along on the 17 inch rim problem

need4spd

BTW - The conti's do have the nylon belt wrap, so they do flat spot also.

gbriank

which tires don't have the nylon belt wrap? how do I find out if they do?

chas083

I believe that the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S use a different material. Check specs at tirerack.com. I have them and improvement is great.

chas083

I believe that the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S use a different material. Check specs at tirerack.com. I have them and improvement is great.

chas083

I believe that the Michelin Pilot Sports A/S use a different material. Check specs at tirerack.com. I have them and improvement is great.

scelipt

The Conti's may indeed have this flatspotting problem but this seems to go way beyond that. In fact I was under the impression that it should go away within a few minutes of driving. So it goes to say that my problem was most def. n ot that and something else entirely and Chase083 are this Michelin Sport on the 18 inch rims ?

need4spd

Call the tire manufacture, they have 800 numbers posted, they can help, also tire rack sales people are a great source of info, they can tell you yes or no.

If you are working with a local tire dealer, have them pull the tire out of stock and read the sidewall info, it is posted right on it (it is the parts about the belts, not the side wall construction info).

The Pilot Sports still use Polyamid, not nylon!

chas083

17s

chas083

17s

Peters

I have decided to call Acura about the tire issue as well. There seems to be a definite issue with these tires. I had not noticed the problem at first, but after 2,900 kms, I think its an issue. Its subtle in my car, but its there.

scelipt

I just posted this in another thread somebody started about vibrations. I had spoken to my rep and sort of agreed with what I wrote below. To make matters worse when you read below you will ask yourself the same thing. Did I buy the right car at the wrong time?

My problem started with the 18 inch rims and tires. I had the same problem that all of you are experiencing with the 17 inch rims. This makes for a very curious thing. If both the 17s and 18s are having the same problem, and they are both sets of different rims and tired then how can it be the rims and tires. From what I've read and that is alot, it seems as if though there is no rhyme or reason why some people have this problem and some don't at all.
To make things even more interesting for everyone, my dealer put my 17 inch rims and tires with the bridgestone back on my car. GUESS WHAT? VIBRATION GONE. Now if this s**t isn't to weird I don't know what is. I will say this though, I don't think this is as easy to fix as we all think. Just an opinion

2004tlinNY1

i got my 5AT TL on 11/29. immediately noticed vibration issue. talked to dealer (Acura of Westchester in Larchmont,NY) they told me to bing car immed and they would look into it. they were out of loaners, but rented me a car!
I went for a ride with tech and he commented on the noise. they rebalanced tires. imporved minimally. i FAXED a letter to ACS on 12/21. no response, so i called them and they indicated that Honda was on minimal operation for holidays. told me that my rep would be back on 1/2/04. hope she/.he calls!

just to be sure honda gets the message, i sent a letter to the pres and ceo in Japan.

overall i am disappointed. my 2001 TL was great --- nice smooth ride. the 04 is noisey and rides pretty lousy for an upscale car. in addtion, the performance in the 2 recent snowstorms in the NE was not good. poor traction, slipping and sliding.

my plan is to insist that the rep meet with me in person. when i do, i would be happy to let others know, so we can make sure acura is aware of the scope of the problem. anyone else out there want to join in?

regards

chas083

My 2004 TL is quiet and rides well. I now have the the Michelin Pilot Spo

chas083

My 2004 TL is quiet and rides well. I now have the the Michelin Pilot Sport A/Ss which may have improved those issues even though I felt it was quiet and rode well before the tire change. Vibration greatly improved.