is tiptronic anything like a manual?
12-02-2009, 09:23 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
I was under the impression that when a dual-clutch gearbox shifts there's pretty much no power interruption since both gears are engaged at once. I can understand why a single-clutch automated setup might be slower, but is the dual-clutch really slower than the auto?
12-02-2009, 09:29 PM
#42
Team Owner
It depends on the strategy and the manufacturer. The primary reason for the dual clutches is for smoother low speed operation. Some use it for quicker shifts but you still can't have overlap like you do on an auto. We're talking miliseconds vs instant so it's really splitting hairs but by design, nothing can shift faster than an auto.
12-03-2009, 12:19 AM
#44
Team Owner
12-03-2009, 09:55 AM
#45
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dude i dont care if he runs a 3500HP jasper or any other car for that matter but if ur stock TL beats his TL-S....he needs to learn how to drive !!! unless ur heavily modded and he is stock !!!
12-03-2009, 11:55 AM
#46
Team Owner
It's an auto and it's slow. There's not a whole lot to improve upon in the driving skill area.
12-03-2009, 12:49 PM
#47
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its faster than a MT gear change, doesnt wear out your hip joint, it also has computer limited revs so you can try a downshift and it will be denied--
read the owner book and try it out- fun for drivers who like to maximize torque off the apex for best exit speed
All others use D5
read the owner book and try it out- fun for drivers who like to maximize torque off the apex for best exit speed
All others use D5
Last edited by Bender; 12-03-2009 at 12:52 PM.
12-03-2009, 01:40 PM
#48
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But stock to stock comparison between TL and TL-S TL being 6MT and TL-S being 5AT, you say the TL is quicker ???
12-03-2009, 02:30 PM
#49
Team Owner
I believe a well driven 6mt base traps 1mph faster on average. Basically whoever floors it first will probably win.
12-03-2009, 03:32 PM
#51
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^^^ dude ur name reminds me of the brown dude from Dunkin Donuts !!!! Am brown too but a different part of the country LOL !!!
@IHC....makes a lot of sense....but then again i thought that extra whp and wtq from the TL-S (3-4 extra WTQ and WHP) would make it an easy conteneder....plus the quick auto shifting as you mentioned !!!
@IHC....makes a lot of sense....but then again i thought that extra whp and wtq from the TL-S (3-4 extra WTQ and WHP) would make it an easy conteneder....plus the quick auto shifting as you mentioned !!!
12-03-2009, 09:20 PM
#53
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dude a lot of stuff that makes up for those trap speeds....
traction, vsa, tires, miles on the car, oil used !!!!
a good driver on a amazing MT might loose to the AT guy just because he had the wrong tires on.....
am not denying that an Base MT is faster than the 5AT TL-s....so lets chill and get back to tiptronic and auto and manual
traction, vsa, tires, miles on the car, oil used !!!!
a good driver on a amazing MT might loose to the AT guy just because he had the wrong tires on.....
am not denying that an Base MT is faster than the 5AT TL-s....so lets chill and get back to tiptronic and auto and manual
12-03-2009, 09:28 PM
#54
12-03-2009, 10:04 PM
#55
what a company needs to come with is a bolt in (slip in
) torque converter with an alot stronger lock up clutch so we can put full power through it and not have that pos (torque converter) sucking up so much power
and have better throttle response do to a direct coupling
blw: like they do on the performance diesel pickups
) torque converter with an alot stronger lock up clutch so we can put full power through it and not have that pos (torque converter) sucking up so much power and have better throttle response do to a direct coupling
blw: like they do on the performance diesel pickups
12-06-2009, 06:41 PM
#56
Team Owner
what a company needs to come with is a bolt in (slip in) torque converter with an alot stronger lock up clutch so we can put full power through it and not have that pos (torque converter) sucking up so much power
and have better throttle response do to a direct coupling
blw: like they do on the performance diesel pickups
) torque converter with an alot stronger lock up clutch so we can put full power through it and not have that pos (torque converter) sucking up so much power and have better throttle response do to a direct coupling
blw: like they do on the performance diesel pickups
This has been done for years.
I did this with my stock GN. Installed a switch that locks the convertor from 2nd gear on. It picked up 4 mph at the track with the addition of a $5 switch.
Ford uses this strategy a lot with their gas and diesel trucks.
I finally went to a non-lock 10" convertor but it only has 1% slip under WOT. Much lighter than a lockup with virtually no slip once you're off the line. Only problem is it was over $900.
The TL does lock the convertor in 4th and 5th but not at WOT unfortunately. I used to love taking off the line with a high stall convertor and then locking it and feeling the additional torque once it loaded the engine down. Most cars with the huge 12" convertors they come with will easily hold the power under WOT. Especially the lack of torque of the TL.
12-06-2009, 08:29 PM
#57
This has been done for years.
I did this with my stock GN. Installed a switch that locks the convertor from 2nd gear on. It picked up 4 mph at the track with the addition of a $5 switch.
Ford uses this strategy a lot with their gas and diesel trucks.
I finally went to a non-lock 10" convertor but it only has 1% slip under WOT. Much lighter than a lockup with virtually no slip once you're off the line. Only problem is it was over $900.
The TL does lock the convertor in 4th and 5th but not at WOT unfortunately. I used to love taking off the line with a high stall convertor and then locking it and feeling the additional torque once it loaded the engine down. Most cars with the huge 12" convertors they come with will easily hold the power under WOT. Especially the lack of torque of the TL.
I did this with my stock GN. Installed a switch that locks the convertor from 2nd gear on. It picked up 4 mph at the track with the addition of a $5 switch.
Ford uses this strategy a lot with their gas and diesel trucks.
I finally went to a non-lock 10" convertor but it only has 1% slip under WOT. Much lighter than a lockup with virtually no slip once you're off the line. Only problem is it was over $900.
The TL does lock the convertor in 4th and 5th but not at WOT unfortunately. I used to love taking off the line with a high stall convertor and then locking it and feeling the additional torque once it loaded the engine down. Most cars with the huge 12" convertors they come with will easily hold the power under WOT. Especially the lack of torque of the TL.
yeah i know you can just add a switch to even trigger it on our tl's (and cl's), but i kinda don't want the light coming on every time i do it, and also i don't want to screw up our tepermental (sp?) torque converter already, so that is why i wanted an aftermarket one, that had more friction are and such to MAKE sure it would hold, and not slip and send more debris through the tranny
and you say you went to a non-lockup one on your GN, but i bet that did not give you too good of streetability if you tried it on the street (and expensive too)
btw: the tl will even lock up in D3 if it needs too (even says in the service manual)
and yeah with it locked, it is not soaking up so much of the power, so it be alot more compareable to a manual in what it can put down (also imagine the engine braking that would be available too, if it be locked up during decel),
also i seriously dought that tl's would have a torque converter along the lines of a 12" one, so it would proably not even be able to hold the tl's gutless torque
12-06-2009, 08:40 PM
#58
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I was under the impression that MT shifts faster than auto, depending on the driver, of course. So the only reason MT is quicker and gets better mileage is because of the slip in AT torque converters?
12-06-2009, 08:56 PM
#59
Team Owner
i know that they have done for years like you said with ford and their trucks (i don't know so much about the gas , but definetly the diesels though
yeah i know you can just add a switch to even trigger it on our tl's (and cl's), but i kinda don't want the light coming on every time i do it, and also i don't want to screw up our tepermental (sp?) torque converter already, so that is why i wanted an aftermarket one, that had more friction are and such to MAKE sure it would hold, and not slip and send more debris through the tranny
and you say you went to a non-lockup one on your GN, but i bet that did not give you too good of streetability if you tried it on the street (and expensive too)
btw: the tl will even lock up in D3 if it needs too (even says in the service manual)
and yeah with it locked, it is not soaking up so much of the power, so it be alot more compareable to a manual in what it can put down (also imagine the engine braking that would be available too, if it be locked up during decel),
also i seriously dought that tl's would have a torque converter along the lines of a 12" one, so it would proably not even be able to hold the tl's gutless torque
yeah i know you can just add a switch to even trigger it on our tl's (and cl's), but i kinda don't want the light coming on every time i do it, and also i don't want to screw up our tepermental (sp?) torque converter already, so that is why i wanted an aftermarket one, that had more friction are and such to MAKE sure it would hold, and not slip and send more debris through the tranny
and you say you went to a non-lockup one on your GN, but i bet that did not give you too good of streetability if you tried it on the street (and expensive too)
btw: the tl will even lock up in D3 if it needs too (even says in the service manual)
and yeah with it locked, it is not soaking up so much of the power, so it be alot more compareable to a manual in what it can put down (also imagine the engine braking that would be available too, if it be locked up during decel),
also i seriously dought that tl's would have a torque converter along the lines of a 12" one, so it would proably not even be able to hold the tl's gutless torque
I would never go this route with a TL or any NA car. I had to use the GN for a commuter, 210 mile round trip a day for 3 months back when it had a lockup 3,400 stall. The convertor clutch burned up somewhere in the middle of the 3 months and even with two large coolers, the old 3,400 stall convertor kept it at 240 at a steady state cruise. This new convertor is extremely efficient when under heavy throttle with excellent transitional response. But again, this convertor went in about the time the GN became a toy and the Quick Time Pros went on for full time street duty.
2800 stall is very tame on the street, you don't notice it that much but gas mileage definitely takes a hit. Most of the turbo guys are switching to the non lock convertors. Early on the trend was non lock and then multi clutch lockup and now back to a non lock due to the advancements in efficiency. Plus, the car revs sooooo fast with a nearly 20lb reduction at the flywheel.
I would love to see a 2,800 lockup convertor made for the TL. Once my trans goes I may check into convertors.
Anyone know if a 4 cylinder convertor has been tried in the V6 5at? This is one of the things that if done right will put the 5at equal or better than the 6mt in straight line performance or it can hurt it.
12-06-2009, 09:19 PM
#60
and yeah the the torque converter is the main power sucker on a auto, (they are heavy too, including all the fluid inside of them which adds even more weight to them)
I ended up with the non lock convertor primarily because it was the best fit for a large turbo and a street car. Other high stall convertors made me torture the convertor trying to get the turbo to spool and get up to the stall speed. This one is a loose goose and then gets very efficient at 2,800rpm. For a NA car it's not much of an advantage.
I would never go this route with a TL or any NA car. I had to use the GN for a commuter, 210 mile round trip a day for 3 months back when it had a lockup 3,400 stall. The convertor clutch burned up somewhere in the middle of the 3 months and even with two large coolers, the old 3,400 stall convertor kept it at 240 at a steady state cruise. This new convertor is extremely efficient when under heavy throttle with excellent transitional response. But again, this convertor went in about the time the GN became a toy and the Quick Time Pros went on for full time street duty.
2800 stall is very tame on the street, you don't notice it that much but gas mileage definitely takes a hit. Most of the turbo guys are switching to the non lock convertors. Early on the trend was non lock and then multi clutch lockup and now back to a non lock due to the advancements in efficiency. Plus, the car revs sooooo fast with a nearly 20lb reduction at the flywheel.
I would love to see a 2,800 lockup convertor made for the TL. Once my trans goes I may check into convertors.
Anyone know if a 4 cylinder convertor has been tried in the V6 5at? This is one of the things that if done right will put the 5at equal or better than the 6mt in straight line performance or it can hurt it.
I would never go this route with a TL or any NA car. I had to use the GN for a commuter, 210 mile round trip a day for 3 months back when it had a lockup 3,400 stall. The convertor clutch burned up somewhere in the middle of the 3 months and even with two large coolers, the old 3,400 stall convertor kept it at 240 at a steady state cruise. This new convertor is extremely efficient when under heavy throttle with excellent transitional response. But again, this convertor went in about the time the GN became a toy and the Quick Time Pros went on for full time street duty.
2800 stall is very tame on the street, you don't notice it that much but gas mileage definitely takes a hit. Most of the turbo guys are switching to the non lock convertors. Early on the trend was non lock and then multi clutch lockup and now back to a non lock due to the advancements in efficiency. Plus, the car revs sooooo fast with a nearly 20lb reduction at the flywheel.
I would love to see a 2,800 lockup convertor made for the TL. Once my trans goes I may check into convertors.
Anyone know if a 4 cylinder convertor has been tried in the V6 5at? This is one of the things that if done right will put the 5at equal or better than the 6mt in straight line performance or it can hurt it.
240 for the trans tamp???
, if so that is still kinda high for a tranny to be running especially with it not even towing anything or pulling a decent payloadwith a torque converter being 20 pounds light would make a HUGE difference, especially proably removing alot of the centrifugial (sp?) weight that it had
if you do find a torque converter i would love to maybe get one too, especially one that could lock up under WOT,
and i would say a full lock up torque converter would help tremendisly for the twisties too,being able to put down the power consistently (not having delay/sloop and stuff and alot faster shifts too)(but the auto trannies add proably at least 200 pounds to the weight of the car though
)
12-06-2009, 10:15 PM
#61
Team Owner
the auto can shift ALOT more consistent, and faster then a manual so faster in that respect and basically you are always putting down power with an auto durings shifts where with an manual you have to let off the throttle during a shift (or your synchros and cluth will suffer majorly)
and yeah the the torque converter is the main power sucker on a auto, (they are heavy too, including all the fluid inside of them which adds even more weight to them)
i would say decent gas mileage would be part of the streetability, some people are just willing to sacerfice more for power then others, and as you said you would never go with something like that for the tl, but would not mind a little stronger one
240 for the trans tamp???, if so that is still kinda high for a tranny to be running especially with it not even towing anything or pulling a decent payload
with a torque converter being 20 pounds light would make a HUGE difference, especially proably removing alot of the centrifugial (sp?) weight that it had
if you do find a torque converter i would love to maybe get one too, especially one that could lock up under WOT,
and i would say a full lock up torque converter would help tremendisly for the twisties too,being able to put down the power consistently (not having delay/sloop and stuff and alot faster shifts too)(but the auto trannies add proably at least 200 pounds to the weight of the car though )
and yeah the the torque converter is the main power sucker on a auto, (they are heavy too, including all the fluid inside of them which adds even more weight to them)
i would say decent gas mileage would be part of the streetability, some people are just willing to sacerfice more for power then others, and as you said you would never go with something like that for the tl, but would not mind a little stronger one
240 for the trans tamp???
, if so that is still kinda high for a tranny to be running especially with it not even towing anything or pulling a decent payloadwith a torque converter being 20 pounds light would make a HUGE difference, especially proably removing alot of the centrifugial (sp?) weight that it had
if you do find a torque converter i would love to maybe get one too, especially one that could lock up under WOT,
and i would say a full lock up torque converter would help tremendisly for the twisties too,being able to put down the power consistently (not having delay/sloop and stuff and alot faster shifts too)(but the auto trannies add proably at least 200 pounds to the weight of the car though
)I'm somewhat undecided on running it locked vs unlocked through the twisties. On one hand if you have the gear ratios and power, locked would be better. But with the crappy auto trans gearing unlocked could possibly get you out of that "in between" area.
I thought it was interesting what you said earlier about locking the TL's convertor with a switch. Didn't know we could do it with these cars but it's very good info.
12-06-2009, 10:43 PM
#62
I agree with you, gas mileage is definately a part of streetability. Believe it or not at one time, in the late 90s when turbo technology was not what it is today I had to run a 3,800 stall to get it to spool. I got 8mpg in the city if I was lucky and this was a little 3.8L V6 in a 3,300lb car. Freeway was decent at 25mpg with it locked. I always had people think I was racing them when I was barely on the throttle because the rpms were so high just to get the car to move from a redlight. My father's current 1,000hp GN has a 3,800 stall and it's a mushy feeling until the boost comes in and it gets somewhat efficient.
I'm somewhat undecided on running it locked vs unlocked through the twisties. On one hand if you have the gear ratios and power, locked would be better. But with the crappy auto trans gearing unlocked could possibly get you out of that "in between" area.
I thought it was interesting what you said earlier about locking the TL's convertor with a switch. Didn't know we could do it with these cars but it's very good info.
I'm somewhat undecided on running it locked vs unlocked through the twisties. On one hand if you have the gear ratios and power, locked would be better. But with the crappy auto trans gearing unlocked could possibly get you out of that "in between" area.
I thought it was interesting what you said earlier about locking the TL's convertor with a switch. Didn't know we could do it with these cars but it's very good info.
would be good for some good responsei would prefer locked because of just getting that throttle response of having a direct coupling, which would deferently be able to transfer more of the power too, being direct, but like you said being able to get in to the power band might be an issue, but i think with it being actually basically fully electronic, that you might have it unlock (by computer) when the revs do happen to get too low (if we could actually get an aftermarket tuner to be able to hack the factory computer
)and yeah i am pretty sure the tl's still have a seperate solenoid specifically for the lock up function (and be extremly easy with the wiring already inside for the ecu (right next to the throttle, in the center console at the very front, just pull back the carpet)
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