argoldst

Just a gentle reminder, do not forget that the Manual has better brembo brakes.

Personally, I know AT is better in traffic and because of that I almost went with an auto. But after learning that you actually get better breaks with the manual, I figured the shifting was worth it.

Do not forget this factor when deciding on an auto or manual.

Tommy_boy

yes i will remember to buy a manual transmission because it has better brakes. Who gives a fuck if i live in a area that has lots of stop and go traffic and shifting is a pain the ass to me. Also, who gives a shit that maybe i dont want a manual transmision, if it has better brakes then i must have it! Thanks for the reminder.

argoldst

Geez, calm there killer. I'm just saying that many people (like me) had a hard decision between going manual or auto.

For me personally, the deal breaker was the better brakes. I live in NY where traffic is about as bad as it gets (probaly only Cali is worse). But when I drove the auto tl, I was really dissapointed by the stopping power.

Again, its all a matter of taste but some people do not even know that the manual comes with different brakes. I was just trying to share some info

fast-tl

Seriously, how were you "disappointed" with the stopping power, in normal traffic? I can't tell the difference in normal braking between my Expedition and TL. Give us some background on what disappointed.
I'll likely go for the stick, for the stick, not for the breaks, but I'd like you to qualify your position please.

G-Spec

OH SHIT! Better brakes! I HAVE to buy stick now! -_-

2004TL6SP

When will you care???

When you rip the front end off your car one day and could have stopped some two to three car lenths better with Brembo's.

Argoldst makes a very good point if you are cosidering both transmission types.

oneilc

hahah you guys are some mean mofo's

narikin

This has been discussed before, of course. Some see the Brembos as more dressing than real performance. The logic is that the stock brakes can lock up the wheel in a panic stop just fine. Thus, the wheels and especially the tires are more apt to affect emergency braking performance than Brembo vs. stock OTOH, from mountain biking, I know that disc brakes vs. calipers offer better "modulation" (the ability to control braking with subtlty) and less fade (reduced performance after repeated hard braking), and the Brembos could well be similarly better than stock. (I've got the 6MT in part b/c of the brakes, in part b/c of the somewhat beefier sway bars, but largely to control the shifting!)

As for possible downside of the Brembos? 1) Very noticeable brake dust on the front wheels; 2) more expensive replacement parts for routine maintenance.

Me, I'm still glad to have 'em!

lstepnio

I've had Brembo brakes on several cars along with a few cars with performance big brakes and I have to say that 'big' brakes have little to do with stopping distances in the rear world. The big brakes are only a real advantage under repeated heavy braking usually only seen in racing.

I'm still a bit upset we didn't get matching bling Brembo brakes in the back.

The replacement pads on our Brembo are less than 1/2 the price of the last set of Brembo brakes I had so I didn't think replacement costs are that high. They also dust about 1/4 as much as my last Brembos did.

Tuetatesu

I'll be honest... I don't know a lot about Brembo brakes, however I can say that this car's breaking power is plenty good without them. I don't plan to race it long distances or drive it hard very often.

I had a manual transmission for 14 years and I did not think I would ever go Auto, but you know what. The auto in the TL is pretty clever and quick. With this transmission I'd rather relax and enjoy the smooth acceleration of the TL then focus on the timing of my shift.

Auto transmission and the brakes it comes with in the TL is good enough for me.

Road Rage

While I agree with you, your language is over the top - it's not like the guy dumped on your girlfriend or something. Isn't there enough vulgarity in the world as it is? Some of us do not wish to be exposed to debasing language, and it is not like a porn channel, where you know what is coming and can block it - I did not know I wanted to avoid your post until I had already read it - please consider that.
Thanks.

sbuswell

Bitch Bitch Bitch Bitch. Stop F'n Bitching. Better Brakes Thats Nice, Not Stupid. Thanks For Letting Us Know. I Didn't Know That, Did The Rest Of You. Please Don;t Trash People Cause They Are Trying To Help That's What This Forum Is All About Anyway. If You Don's Think So Then Get A F Off It. It's Not Like He Said Tl's Suck And He Was Going To Buy An Infiniti Or Lexus Or Worse A Jaguar(they Suck, Waste Of Money). Argoldst I Feel Sorry For You, Thanks For Trying To Be Informative At Least And Manual Is Better Than Auto In Any Vehicle.

Road Rage

i did know but why is everyone so fired up tonight? notice i am writing all in small letters, like ee cummings.

this forum is funny sometimes.

caball88

dang give this guy a break this is a public forum he was just making a comment. if you don't like it ignore it. anyways even tho the 6MT has the brembos the stopping distance is not that significant when you compare the 2. the advantage is consistent stops. when the brakes heat up after lots of braking they will tend to lose their stopping power. with the brembos it will stay somewhat more consistent.

Hybrid

Not that they're necessarily the most respected source, but Motor Trend has done braking tests on both the 6MT with Brembos and the 5AT, at different times. The 5AT shows a better stopping time, by a significant number of feet. I don't subscribe, so don't have the distances to quote, but I've seen it at least twice. It's in the summary table published monthly. Disclaimer: I didn't do the tests, so am not responsible for the results.

gyrus

you get LSD in a manual too.

Road Rage

Clutch type or Torsen? If clutch, the traction control works about the same, but at a reduced speed capability.

ColStripe

Too much traffic for me to worry about the manual. In addition, I'll appreciate my higher resale value when it comes time to sell.

Rkat

Well just remember this..in most tests that I read has the brakes with in a few feet of each other,the brembos just did not suffer from fade as quick as the stock auto brakes,One more thing to think about,You might have great brakes..what about the guy behind you..

vp911

doesnt the a-spec for auto have the upgraded brakes?

Rkat

No

lstepnio

It does have better pads which depending on the pads could easily make the brakes better than the standard Brembos.

argoldst

fast tl,

I know I am probaly spoiled as I am ending my lease on a 2002 clk55. The brakes on that car seemed excellent (not that the TL was that bad). But I felt like I stopped shorter in the manual then in the auto.

Even if it is only a few feet better stopping distance, I have been in a few situations where a few feet is the difference between stopping in time and driving on and getting into an accident.

Is the better breaks worth everyone getting a manual? NO. Is it a lifesaver? Could be... depends on the situation.

But the bottom line is that you are getting something better (regardless how much) for free by going manual. IF you are torn between auto and manual as is, the brake might be the deciding factor for you. At least, they were for me.

The strange thing is that most dealers do not seem to mention this... no idea why

Pot80h

I'd get the manual if they'd put the wheel on the other side...

The dealers probably don't mention it because a) the sales guy doesn't know or b) most buyers don't care! Not everyone's as thorough (sp?) as you guys!!

fast-tl

Now that's plainly idiotic. I wreck my car and sit on the curb thinking " I coulda had a stick!" OOOOOOk everyone, let's get the word out that the autos ARE NOT SAFE!
Now if you could please find the data that compares stopping distances between the two transmission types to back up 2-3 car lengths...what's that? You say you can't find it? For shame, for shame. That's 'cause there is no such data!
Now, if the original poster would care to explain his disappointment...

fast-tl

As far as wheels locking, all TLs have ANTI-LOCK brakes which should mitigate the difference. And I;m saying in nornal driving, which could also include some emergency stops, you won't see noticeable differences in stopping distance. Your post talks about fade resistance, which is defined by repeated hard use of the brakes which is NOT normal driving. Hence my point: how are the normal brakes disappointing? During regular use? During evasive maneuver testing? That's why I pointed out that unless I'm both feet on the pedal stopping, full ABS, I can't see the diff between my TL and my 3 ton Expedition.

2004TL6SP

"Argoldst makes a very good point if you are cosidering both transmission types".

From Road and Track:

"Putting power to the front wheels of our test car is a close-ratio 6-speed manual gearbox (making this the first TL you can shift manually), though a 5-speed automatic with a sequential-shift mode is the default transmission. Go for the 6-speed, though. It's a no-cost option, and ordering it also brings a helical-gear limited slip and choice brake hardware in the form of Brembo 4-piston front calipers".

My point being that we drive a great performance near luxury sedan.
If one is considering buying a 6-speeed, then take braking performance into account.
It was at the top of my list when I decided on the 6-speed/hp tires.

You don’t need statistical data to know a 6-speed car with or without hp tires side by side will stop better then the automatic car. Having less vehicle weight, better pads, four piston calipers, and bigger rotors all add up to better braking. Weather it is one foot or two or three car lengths; you can commission an independent engineered test.

In many real world situations everyday any extra braking can make the difference between having an accident and avoiding one.
“Now that's plainly idiotic” to suggest otherwise or to say auto TL’s are unsafe.

SouthernBoy

This was never even a consideration with me. I would never, ever buy a personal driving machine with an automatic transmission. I have a VERY strong bias here.

However, if I were to buy a vehicle with which to tow or to do some kind of work which required me to use it a lot, then I would get an automatic.

nukys

Well, I test drove both and I felt that the 6spd stopped better with less fade. The shifter is a joy to use and the car felt like it ran stronger. Since we don't have alot of traffic down here in good ol' Mississippi (read:none), it was a no brainer. The only time I yearn for an auto is when I'm eating an ice cream cone while trying to talk on the cell phone and drive, all at the same time. 6spd's really suck in those situations.

fast-tl

2004 TL6SP, I guess you didn't see this post which says that those bigger brakes and rotors don't matter much in normal driving. And you own post indicated that one model was safer than the other. You implied that I'd better better off in an accident with the stick. You R&T article doesn't state WHY to get the stick other than the pretty brakes, no empirical data. Sorry, your point wasn't proven. And yes, you DO need data to back it up if you want to make the claim. You know that.

argoldst

Fast Tl,

We are not trying to insult you or any auto car. You said it very clearly that the brakes will make no difference in normal driving and I could possibly argue but the difference would be VERY little.

The point is that they are there, and they perform better in an emergency.

One car I was actually looking at was the 2005 pontiac g2o. One of the reasons I did not take it was because it did not have side airbags. Side airbags make no difference in everyday driving and hopefully, most of us will never use them. But I still wanted them because IN CASE I needed them, they were there.

The same goes for the brakes. The auto TL brakes are not horrible. It is just that the manual's breaks are better and IF (and I sincerely hope this never is the case) you are in a situation where that difference in braking power is the difference between an accident or diving away, or minor injuries vs. major injuries, wouldn't you rather have the better brakes too?

Norse396

I for one regret not buying the stick, I also regret buying the car but since this is about stick vs auto, I should have gotten stick.....

dcarlinf1

Two or three car lengths??

svtmike

The comparison to a decision on side airbags doesn't apply. If we were talking about side airbags in one car that work better under race conditions, I'd agree.

I find the brakes in the automatic to be plenty strong and very easily modulated. Michelin Pilot Sport A/S provide much better maximum braking than the BS EL42s, and I really am glad I don't have the dusting and squeaking of the Brembos.

Mike

FlashG

I drove both auto and manual versions of the TL, TSX and Accord EX Coupe before I decided on the 6 speed TL. Why? Because it was so much fun to drive. Since then I have about 3,000 miles on the car and I’m convinced that I made the right decision.

The brakes and other suspension goodies don’t just add icing to the cake they make my car a whole bunch safer to drive. That plus I’m currently getting 2 to 3 mpg better than my old 4 cyl Accord EX.

The brakes helped save the day a couple of times already. Not to get too off topic but our (luxury type) cars are targets for people who think that they can get away creating a deliberate rear end accident. My most recent episode was with a Romanian gipsy immigrant that tried to sucker me into a rear ender. I stopped safely and he hit the guy in front. I stuck around and witnessed the hilarity afterward. That’s why I know about his nationality and fraudulent intent.

He lost this time but there is plenty more like him cruising our streets, especially in rush hour traffic. My company is also experiencing the results of this driving tactic. In my case the premium brakes definitely helped me avoid this turkey and for that I am thankful. BTW, I don't have anything against lawful Romainian citizens.

svtmike

Believe what you want to believe but I don't buy it. Reaction time and the rubber on the road are more important than whether you had Brembo calipers and pads. Heck, a lot of high performance brake pads actually perform worse than a standard street pad until they are heated up.

Mike

FlashG

Mike, my brakes were heated up at the time and reaction time is also a factor. Please forgive me for not stating the complete story but I'm a material witness and I can't share all the details. For now just watch out for the other guy OK?

argoldst

I really think this thread is getting out of control. Of course reaction time is more important. Yes, the tires have a big role in how far you stop. But the brakes also play a role.

This thread was never intended to put down the automatic tl or to elevate the brembo brakes to this "magical" brake.

I only started this thread so that people who are trying to decide between the auto and manual be aware that the manual does come with better brakes. It might mean nothing to some people and it might be the deciding factor for others.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I do not understand why some are getting so "defensive" about this topic.

Technically speaking you get better gas mileage with a manual then an auto. I would have stated this also but I would figured everyone already knows this. Many do not know about the different brakes. Again, better gas milage does not make the manual a "better car" but just something to consider. Of course, the big advantage of the auto is convience (especially in traffic).

gyrus

I'm guessing "Helical Limited Slip Differential" is torsen gear based LSD.

not like viscous where the wheel has to be spinning out before it locks together..

SouthernBoy

Does anyone get the feeling that one simple but very important factor has been left out of all of this?

For lack of a better description, I'll just call it the "sheer joy of driving" factor. I LOVE to drive. I don't necessarily care where or what (I DO have some preferences).. I just love the feel of a driving machine wrapped around me and having dominion over what it does.. feeling it go down the road and respond to my inputs. When I bought my first car (a new car at 18 years old), I would get up around 6:00 in the morning and go out for 3 or 4 hours just to drive all over the place. The first year, I put over 30,000 miles on it.

I have never gotten over this feeling. My preference revolves around drag racing and acceleration, but the way a car handles and moves is just as significant to me. So to fully enjoy and appreciate this beautiful gift, a manual transmission is a MUST for me.

Yep, the sheer joy of driving might just sum it up.