Synthetic Oil at 3000 miles
 

Hi guys,
Pretty new yhere. I have a 2004 TL (5AT w/NAVI), car is about to reach 3000 miles. Planning to change oil to Mobil 1, but the oil life is still at 80%... wondering what you TL/CAR experts think out there, should I wait until 5800 (30-40% oil life) :dunno: or its pretty SAFE to change it at 3000 miles?

much appreciated.

From what I understand Acura puts an additive in with the oil to help with break-in. My dealer told me not to change the oil until after 4000 miles. I think I will wait until the oil life goes down to about 5-10% then switch to Havoline SynBlend.

do not change the oil for the first time till the MID tells you to. As insmanblue has said, Acura has additives in their oil to properly coat the engine. Then you can switch to whatever you want :)

Acura Oil...
 

If I want to buy more of the oil that Acura uses...is there a specific oil I should ask for at the dealership?

I have 1,000 and was thinking of changing the oil, but I want to stay with the same stuff.

Welcome to the Oily Wars. j/k I am led to believe that the original oil in your Acura is a "break-in" oil that had certain additives in it which are beneficial to a new engine, and should be retained for 5000 miles or until the computer tells you it is time for change. Then I think you could change to Mobil 1 or whatever. Acura recommends that the proper oil weight should be 5W-20 which is unavailable from Mobil. Some of the more knowledgable oil gurus on this forum recommend Motorcraft 5W-20 semi-syn which is available from Wal-Mart for a mere pittance. I plan on doing this when the time comes. I've long been a fan of Mobil 1 for my Saab because turbos seem to be happier running on synthetic. Check some of Road Rages previous posts for lubrication edification.
Cheers! :)

i would wait for the MID before i change the oil out. however if you must change it out early road rage has written an article describing his studies on what acura uses for the break in oil. i don't recall completely but i believe the stock oil is castrol with some additive to help with the breakin process. i changed my oil at 4K with regular dino oil and then at 7K to synthetic.

well, Mobil 1 has 0W-20, which is said to be made for HONDAs, my old 2002 Accord SE used Mobil 1 oil mostly... so I guess I'll wait until the MID tells me to change.

safer than fort knox. go for it.

others will say "wait for MID", or "there's additives in the oem oil", or "it's not broken in yet".

FACT: no study has ever shown significant improvements by going to full synth or by using additives as long as oil and filter is changed out accordingly.

full synths are certainly better than dino oils under circumstances (like really cold/hot operating conditions). and you need a cost efective quality oil filter (WIX).

if i'm wrong about the FAQ then please post the info.

cheers

even tho acura and mobil 1 say 0w20 is the weight to go with i went and tried 5w30 mobil 1 this time during my oil change due to road rage's post. since it is getting a bit colder i figure why not give it a try. i dunno if its placebo effect or not but i notice that the engine rev's smoother. the mpg is the same so i dun really see no advantages there. but a thicker weight oil is suppose to offer a little more protection. since i do most of my driving at regular speeds like most folks here i would like to put the oil that wil provide the best protection in my car.

Unless you bring your own oil and watch them put it in you will get the oil from the bulk tank that everyone else gets.

There is so much written here about oil that it is hard to make an intelligent decision. Unless you are super paranoid, most of the name brand oils will do unless, again, you put a lot of miles on the car or drive in extreme conditions.

The manual recommends 5-20. I put in 10-30 this time, with Road Rage's approval, and I think, but I am not sure, that my mileage went down just a little. I may go back to 5-20 on the next oil change.

The main thing to remember is to follow the MID recommendation, at least for the first oil change. I changed my oil for the first time at 6,500 miles because I just got tired of waiting, and will probably do it again somewhere between 5000-6000 miles unless the MID tells me to do it sooner.

that's what i do, i think the techs get extremely annoyed but i stand there and watch them put the synthetic oil i brought in. i don't care i am extremely paranoid and don't want to wonder if they poured it in or not.

You are not paranoid! I do the same thing. The reason I now do this is in the past I have brought in synthetic and got the car back with regular (I could feel the difference almost immediately). I now watch them put it in.

And sometimes they just forget, or are too lazy, so you get home and your oil is still in the trunk where you told them it was.

And now it is too late or you have to go back and make them drain the oil and put yours in, so it is better to watch than worry.

Actually, oil analysis of the factory honda fill was done, and it was found to be high mostly in moly disulphide. Road Rage is the one that points this out in many threads here on the zine... and his suggestion for early chang out of oils is to add Valvoline MaxLife Engine Protector which puts back what Honda wants in there during the break in process. There are threads on this that include analysis of the oils, and how they are performing later on down the road.

Motorcraft 5w20 synblend is said to be an awesome value. Road Rage points out that it has an additive package that is superior, and is what many oils will be using in the future. Not only that, but the dino oil with synthetic appears to be making better use of the additive package in certain circumstances. He has a lot of threads on this stuff... definately worth a read.

-Steve

hehheh NYC grease monkies hate that.

what kind of difference ???

moly-disulfide is a agent that bonds to metal surfaces to reduce wear.

my point is, there is no proof (study) that the additives make the engine last longer. the engine will last just as long and perform the same if the additives were not in there. it's probably in there for future analysis of engine components.

MaxLife is targeted for older engines, another snake-oil if you will. on older engines the wear is significant enough that no additive can fix. it may have the additive components of moly-disulfide but i just dont see the benefits.

what a miracle, just by keeping the Honda additive in for the 1st 6k miles your engine will outlast every other engine and perform better. then you flush it out with new oil... hmmmmmmm, sounds odd to me.

I'm with you, cvajs. I ran Mobil 1 in my 1997 Z28 for the 43K miles I had it, and it was $$ better saved. However, I did see this weekend on Horsepower TV that Royal Purple Synthetic oil did actually free up a few (8, I think) HP on a 2002 Z28 due to reduced internal friction as compared to regular oil or normal synthetics. BUT, it's a cost vs. benefit issue. We're not all headed to the track in search of that last tenth of a second advantage. I agreew that conventional dino oils with regular changes is the most cost effective strategy. AFTER ALL IT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE CAR RECOMMEND! Who are we to 2nd guess their engineering? And to the guy who "Could imediately tell the difference"....BS.

Utter rubbish.
You have much to learn, grasshopper. You apparently know more than Honda does about engines, and wear analyses clearly show that certain oils and especially certain oils with specific add packs reduce wear. To say MaxLife is snake oil merely shows your ignorance - it is formulated with the best antiwear additives known to science, in the amounts that have proven themselves in hundreds of millions of miles of use, with the UOA's to prove its efficacy.. The new SL oils have reduced amounts of these compounds (primarily ZDTP), which is why some of the better oils, like LE 8130, have not gone to the SL spec.

MaxLife is not snake oil, and just because you do not see the benefits, that doesn't mean they are not there - and you completely missed the context of the recommendation of that product in the 1st place: which was that for those impatient folks who want to chnage their factory fill early, the additives in Honda's factory fill are available in MLEP in virtually the same amounts! So they can have their cake, and eat it too. Get your arguments straight before you spout off.

I have posted on all these topics, including the issue of whether synoils are as great as their mfrs claim - they are not, except in their ability to extend OCI's, reduce friction, perform at extreme temperatures, and reduce engine temperatures. Wear reduction is a function of the additive package, and some of the best synopils use the best additives - that is how they reduce wear. The TFOUT tests of LE's oils show its superior resistance to oxidation, an indicator of its extended service life capability.

Your last sentence shows how little you understand the basic principles at work here. The asperities on the cylinder walls of new engines need to be honed, and additives like LE's Monolec, and Honda's factory fill with molybdenum disulphide, help ensure that the asperities hone rather than shear off, and that the lands between the asperities "fill" with the anti-wear additives. Temps from component friction at the asperities can actually cause them to melt - resulting in a rough textured bore rather than a smooth one. This is easily seen when examining metal under a scanning electron microscope (I have access to one - do you?). This is so well known to tribologists that it isn't even arguable - the issue becomes whether the better oil companies are willing to pay for the best additives, or develop their own proprietary ones (as LE has done).

And a properly broken engine does not care if the oil is flushed out at the first oil change - the effects of the proper break in are in the metal, not in the oil. Seems odd to YOU because you do not understand the first thing about what the additives are doing, and what is going on at the ring/cylinder bore interface.

While any of today's quality oils will provide adequate protection, the best ones deliver more than adequate performance. There have been many long term tests done, including several by Mobil, that show zero wear at hundreds of thousands of miles with Mobil1, which is a mid-tier synoil. Now whether the average driver can benefit from that longevity is of course open for argument, and my posts have often recommended the best mineral oils (Motorcraft, Havoline, Pennzoil) for people who do not use long OCI's - for those who can afford a bit more, there is Motorcraft's 5w20 synblend, which uses advanced amine additives - for those who want the best protection and the longest drain intervals, there are products like LE 8130.

Road Rage...what do you think of Redline 5w20 synthetic oil? I've got almost a full case at home and have been considering changing my factory oil soon. I've been waiting for the MID to get a little lower, it's currently at 40%. Thanks! btw...the redline oil is approx. 18 months old.

1. the only SEM i had accessed to was during my nuclear engineering/physics studies which entailed intensive material engineering studies as part of the course (we kinda have to know about the elements/compounds/structures of materials or else everything can suddenly go boom), but i'm no automotive "asperities" guy.

2. so far i have seen no evidence (posted or linked to) that clearly shows the benefits of either making the engine last longer or significantly reducing friction simply by using additives or by using synthetics.

and i stated that moly-disulfide bonds into the metal surfaces to reduce wear (i think i understand what the additives are doing), the question becomes, where in the metal does it go (it's like making hardened steels, how deep the the Carbon get into the metal), and how long will it stay there.

if they are so worried about wear why not just treat the metals before assembly???


i'm not being difficult, i personally would like to see the evidence. moly-disulfide has been around for a long time..... any links to some University studies, etc ?

i would question that extra 8 hp. 8 hp can be attributed to many many other factors. how many runs on each did they do?

i would like to see 2 "identical" blueprinted motors sit on a engine dino and make 10 runs in controlled environment using fresh dino oil/filter during each run. then swap the oil out to the "test" oil and make the runs.

:agree: Just what I'll be doing. I took my car to the dealer for it's first oil change @ 4,650 miles. It has 8,250 now and I'll be usin Royal Purple 5w20 by 8,500.

Royal Purple is a hype outfit in my book. Their UOA's look universally middle of the road. They have not been around very long, and I do not know any oil engineer professionals who uses their products, nor anyone I have met at SAE. The magazines fall right into their marketing hype. Those 8 HP are awlays done after something else has been drained.

I think that is a dog and pony show. Used oil is almost always thicker than fresh oil for 2 reasons:

1) The carrier oil for the additive pack is usually in a thin faction oil, which burns off quickly.
2) The rest of the oil is volatile, and burns off over time, to the tune of 10-20%.

So putting in a light oil like RP's 5w20 and then dynoing it right away proves nothing other than that old oil has parasitic friction which reduces HP - duh!! Come back 10K miles later, and let's see if the power is still there.

Not in my car - and the color is fruity too. Their big deal last year was getting a patent on the purple bottle - this is an engineering-oriented company? :dunno:

I'm curious. Back in the early 1950s (dark ages) the Union Oil Co. marketed an oil directed toward the "hot rod" set. This oil was called "Royal Triton", was purple in color, and was purported to be the pinnacle of quality oils (or at least made your car able to leap tall buildings in a single bound). Any connection to Royal Purple or is all this stuff merely happenstance? :dunno:

So RR, what do you think of the Motorcraft synblend? Should I get hold of that for my next change, or should I just let the Acura dealer give me whatever's in the tank?

I have posted already on Motorcraft's product - it is excellent - what you choose to do is your business, not mine, but personally I would not let "whatever the dealer has about" guide my decisions. Plus, those large drums can have the additives settle out, since they are colloids and the additives have specific gravity characteristics that cause them to settle. That is one reason i store my oil upside down. (There, free tip).

I changed to Mobil 1 (0-20) at 2,000 miles. I figure the pistons have already gone up and down millions of times. I now have 4500 miles on the car. It runs great and got 31 MPG over a 700 mile trip last week. I'm happy - even if I can't defend my decision with engineering speak!

cvajs:

Keep in mind that i am not talking about additives in a bottle - the only one I recommended was MLEP, for a very specific condition - those who insist on changing out their factory fill early. I agree that most aftermarket oil additives are counter-productive at best, and potentially harmful at worst, since the "main oil" may view additives as "dirt", and use up the chemsitry devoted to keeping dirt in suspension, allowing the real dirt, which are combustion byproducts, to do real damage.


Also keep in mind that I have not given in to synoil madness - I have posted repeatedly that today's better mineral oils are effectively synoils already, as they are highly saturated (monomolecular), and low in wax crystals. I agree that for most people and most uses, today's best minoils (Pennzoil, Motorcraft, Havoline) are all that anyone needs, especially if they change oil frequently. Synoils have better reserve additive levels, can perform better in extreme heat or cold, and their pumpability puts less stress on upstream compnents (starters, oil pumps, etc). Their main benefit, however, is longer service life. The fact that nearly every race car in ther world uses them speaks to their strength, max HP due to reduction in parasitic loss, and freedom from shear down. Lubricating an 18k RPM F1 car, or a 500 mile NASCAR would not have as many finishers without synoils. Individuals have differing needs, so I leave the choice up to them. But to boo-hoo the synoil capabilities by saying "I have not seen this or that" only speaks to what you have not seen - to those of us who have been in the industry, the facts are beyond dispute - it is the applied practicality and implications of lubricant choice that are debatable.

I am talking about oil additives in the additive pack in engine and gear oils. Moly, and LE's proprietary additive, Almasol, have demonstrated their effectiveness in wear reduction in many studies - the major oil companies do not use them just to make a point - they are costly!

Wear metal is the single greatest indicator of how effective oils are - the best synoils have lots of good stuff in them, which is one reason they are costly. Their ability not to shear down and oxidize are their primary longevity qualities. Poly-molecular oils like many mineral oils create heat by their own inertia - synoils are mono-molecular, and tend to create less self-heat.

To answer your question about how colloids work, they work by either mechanical and/or chemical reaction with the base metal. I will post some useful threads so you can bone up on the topics I have mentioned in my previous response, but the onus is not on me to prove that which has been proven over and over. We studied all this in our plant, using the SEM's, and mass spectrometers. Wear metal analysis is an industry standard, and we controlled all the variables wen we went looking for lubricants for plant machinery. Synlubes not only reduced wear, but the extended drain intervals saved money - big money.
This one is about how systems like the MiD work:
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com...up=OilAnalysis

This one will explain what I was talking about about the dynamics of break-in at the nanotribologic level - it will "prove" my observations and statements that control of metal shearing during boundary lubrication is a real phenomenon - it is why the moly is in abundance in the OE oil. Moly is also the primary lubricant in engine assembly lubes to keep the cam lobes and oil bearings from getting damaged when the engine is first started. LE's Almasol is better than moly. It is a proprietary lubriucant developed by Lubrication Engineers - info available at www.le-inc.com
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com...up=OilAnalysis

Key takeaway: "EP additives typically work by adsorbing onto the metal surface either by physical or chemical attraction. Once attached, they react with gear tooth surface material at the high, local temperatures formed when asperities (microscopically small rough spots) come into contact under boundary lubrication conditions. The additives form a low melting point eutectic with the general formula FeSxPyOz that is softer than the metal itself. This surface deforms on contact and prevents the metal surfaces from welding at the contact points."

This site (Lubrizol) will explain some of the various anti-wear and anti-friction additives that make up a modern oil, mineral or synthetic. All the oil company's buy most of their addtives from companies like Lubrizol, except the few that developp their own (like LE, quo vide).

http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReferen...eadditives.asp additives

snip
great info, i can learn a thing or two from it,
thanks.....

:wave:

Are you serious? Turning a liquid upside down? And why would that matter since it all gets sloshed around inside the engine, and somewhat mixed up again as it's poured. At first I thought I understood your point then I had the funny mental picture of turning my bottled water "upside down". How's it's possible to store the oil upside down? Really.

Also I'm glad you admit that most of today's oils do get the job done. I think the superscience goes WAY beyond what's actually necessary in most garages. If I had a 1912 million-dollar Deusenberg perhaps, but in the common sports car, muscle car, family sedan, it's just not necessary to have access to SEMs or to analyze asperities. I mean it's odd, but we don't do the same for gasoline, or power steering fluid. It's easy to get overly absorbed. roadrage, I respect your knowledge and advice, but I think it would benefit us all if we didn't take ourselves so seriously on this topic. As you said the average driver would have to look awfully hard and drive an extraordinary, repeat, extraordinary, number of miles to extract the benefits some say they want or need in a particular oil.
Except for those drivers who could "immediately tell" when an improper oil was freshly filled in their vehicle.

Really? Of course I am serious - I do not have time to goof around. It gets sloshed around in the engine? That is only if it gets in the engine - over time, the particles descend to the bottom. Pouring does not mix anything, as few people let every quart drain every drop. If the bulk of the additives has settled out, it is obvious that the best practice is to store the oil upside down, so when you pour, you are getting more of the particulate. Your comparison to water is silly, as it does not have an additive package of which I am aware. How is it done? Uhhh, open the case from the bottom.

P.S. I found a black widow spider in one of my cases of oil today - it is in the freezer being rendered safe; beautiful animals, nasty bite, so I will have to be more cautious.

This is by far, one of the best topic out there. I read every post and every word of it... and learned a good deal of INFO. But like RoadRage said... "what oil you get isn't his business" whether is 5w-20 or 5w-30 for the TL. I have finalized down to 2 products I plan to use... and it's really a toss up between the two 1) Mobil 1 0w-20 <$4.99> 2) LE brand that RR mentioned 5w-30 <$5.02>.... the price is about the same ... but just NOT sure which one is best for the TL. LE brand does not carry in regular stores so when I called them (817) 834-6321 , they wanted my cc number to order, i was doubtful about that. But anyway, great posts!!

My question about storing upside down is: how can any additives escape being poured into the engine if the entire quart goes into the engine? If I am, for instance, performing an oil change, whether I pour form the "bottom" or "top" 99% of what's inside that bottle goes into the engine. If additives make up that last 1%, then we're screwed anyway. Sure, with your way the additive goes in first **if the oil has sat long enough to settle out**, but again if the entire quart's going in, the additives are going in with it. Also, the whether you pour it in right side up or upside down once it's poured, it remixes at the bottom of the oil pan as it pours which I stated before, so I still see no benefit to storing the liquid upside down.

Just shake the bottle for a while before pouring it in. The chocolate milk TV add comes to mind - "Shake stuff up".

If the bottom of the bottle contains some of the most important stuff in the mixture, and you pour out from the top down... guess what's left largely in the bottle after the usual 60 second pour?? That's right... whatever was sitting on the bottom for months on end.

You seriously think you get EVERYTHING out of a bottle of viscous liquid??? Maybe if you let your bottle sit in the valve cover for a few hours, but even then oil is left adhereing to the interior surface of the bottle.


Ever seen a bottle of italian dressing seperate out? What if the best part of the dressing was at the bottom?

See the point?

Exactly :clap: . My whole point is that some seem to be overthinking the issue. That's why the upside down oil struck me as funny. :dunno:
Just don't get any poly disulfides on your shirt from shaking the bottle. :sure:

If the best part of the dressing is at the bottom, you'd shake up the bottle to remix it, same as the oil. Oil, as is salad dressing, is a viscous fluid. After you pour all the dressing, there's not 10% remaining in that bottle; please! I didn't say you get "everything" out of the quart of oil, but I'll bet you get 98-99%. I mena, really, how much do you think clings to the inside of the bottle? And as I said earlier, if the all-important additives are only 1% of the contents, then we're screwed anyway.

So to recap, you don't have to store your oil a certain way if you take 2-3 seconds to shake it up *provided it has even sat long enough to settle out or separate.* There are 32 ounces to a quart, according to www.megaconveter.com. For those who say the bottle can't be emptied, where does this 60-second pour come from? I pour until the bottle's empty. I'm not leaving even 10% (3 fluid ounces, or a 25% of a can of Coke) in that bottle. That's wasteful, especially for the folks spening $5/quart on oil. So I do believe you can get the vast majority of the oil in to the crankcase, and regardless of how you store it, it all mixes again once it's at the bottom of the engine.
I'm not sure how I'm being unclear. :huhsign: :omg: