djarovsky

Does anyone have a scan of this article? Or perhaps willing to type in the entire article? I'd like to read it.

russianDude

I predit that in 10-20 years from now, synthetic oil will be standard OEM factory fill in most of the cars. BMW and Mercedes have been doing it for a long time, and its coming to other cars as well... just a matter of time...

fsttyms1

And hopefully by then we will be saving more oil an devery one will be rating it for longer than the 3k commercials that have brainwashed every one

01tl4tl

Some may have noticed the exotic cars that come with synthetic oil in them - have already been dyno run engine break in and some actual miles installed in the car before it ever leaves the factory.

Some of those cars are even track or autobahn driven to top speed- for a duration of time- to ensure everything is right before it ships out

In America, its slap em together and ship em out the door, the dealer will fix whatever is wrong

JohnCollins

I'm no tribologist, and haven't a clue about if/how much better synth is. But I am a financial guy and I get a big kick out of the "save money", "don't waste money" aspect of these threads.

I do mostly highway driving (sales guy). Long, steady speed trips, so I get about 7,500 on the MID between changes. Interestingly, that's about what Mobil 1 or Amsoil says you can run their oil.

If you buy 5 qts of dino at $1.50, versus 5 qts of synth at $5 (let's not quibble over prices), the difference is $17.50. Divide that by 7,500 miles and you're talking 2.33 cents per mile. You've got to drive 4.25 miles to get the difference up to a penny.

I don't care if you want to drive your car to 300,000 miles or not, but in a $30,000 car, with all the other maintenance, fuel, and gadget costs, this just isn't real money. It's not worth even thinking about.

If synth isn't any better than dino, the cost is negligible. If it's a even a little better, it's worth it. If the tribologists say it doesn't matter, run dino. And apparently there are good dinos out there these days, and the differences between dino and synth are very narrow, indeed. But when I finally got out the calculator and looked at the cost difference, I quit reading the tribologists' stuff because it made my hair hurt.

But stop talking about cost as part of the equation, it's laughable. If I drive my car 150,000 miles over six years, the differnce over the life of the car is like $350. I have better things to worry about. Maybe I'm not getting anything for my money, but I use Amsoil or Mobil 1, and Amsoil or Mobil filters. It makes me feel better and that's good enough for me.

Rpappi

you can run some synthetics to 15k with less damage to your engine than some dino's at 3k.

russianDude

Amsoil oil + Amsoil filter combination is good for 25K miles/1year for normal driving(which I guess what applies to your situation) and 15K miles/1year for sever.

Even Mobil 1 EP guarantees 15K miles oil change interval.

So with Amsoil or Mobil 1 EP you could easily put 15K between oil changes. You are right, you won't save much money in this case, probably be about even, but the advantages are the following:

- Less time wasted on oil changes out of your busy schedule, time is money, right?
- Extra level of confidence that your engine is getting the best protection against wear.
- If you care about the environment, you will produce less waste.


Synthetic will soon become an industry standard, all upper end cars are already using it as OEM, and its coming down to average cars....

JohnCollins

RussianDude, my Amsoil isn't. Amsoil makes a bunch of different grades of oil. I realize they sell one that is good for 25K miles. They recommend using an oversized filter and changing it mid-year, I believe. They make another product they recommend for 7,500 intervals, and that's what I use. It's a choice. I'm aware of the 25K stuff, I just don't use it. I prefer the stuff that they recommend for 7,500 mile intervals.

Interestingly, that's pretty close to what the MID gives me, which is why I like that particular product. I use their 7,500 mile stuff and go by the MID.

Mobil is the same way. Some of their oil is recommended for longer intervals. These have beefier additive packages. Don't just grab a brand name of synthetic and assume you know what the drain interval is. Most manufacturers--at least I know Mobil1 and Amsoil--make several different synthetic products with widely varying recommended drain intervals. Synthetic is not all the same. The formulations can be quite different.

John

P.S. I'm not so sure about your industry standard comment, either. From what I've read from the true experts (that's not me), Havoline and a few other manufacturers with the most modern refineries (Pennzoil, maybe?) are making dino that is practically the equivalent of synth. Differences may be there, but they're not what they once were years ago.

russianDude

It used to be like that, but Amsoil recently introduced a new line of EaO oil filters:
Amsoi EaO
that are guaranteed for 25,000 miles or 1 year, so no need to change oil-filter more often than the oil.
The only Amsoil that is good for 7,500 miles that I know is XLF, which are synthetic and are also pricey

JohnCollins

The Amsoil 5W-20 XLM is what I use, and it is synthetic and pricey (but I don't think price matters in the greater scheme of things with this car--see post above). It is recommended for 7,500 miles or 6 months, which fits well with the MID recommendation. I like using this oil and following the car's computer.

The stuff you were talking about is the ASL, 5W-30 (doesn't come in 5W-20 grade), and that is designed for 25,000 or 1 year, is also synthetic and is more pricey.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to communicate to me, RussianDude. I think you're trying to make a suggestion or enlighten me on Amsoil's product line, but it's not making sense to me.

No matter, however. I'm not interested in the one year oil changes anyway. I'm very comfortable with the Amsoil or Mobil1 7,500 mile stuff and following the car's MID notices.

TunedTL

I also use Amsoil 5w-20 XLM, but it is technically not a synthetic oil. Its base oil is Group III, which is highly refined oil from mineral petroleum crude oil. But Amsoil is an excellent blender, base oil is important, but additive package is equally important to make a good oil. Also Amsoil never hides its XL line is a Group III product, Amsoil's other premium products are Group IV based.

I totally agree with Kris that Used Oil Analysis will tell you how much the engine wears during the oil change interval.

Mobil 1 apparently has changed the base oil from Group IV PAO to Group III around late 2006. BITOG has a huge thread to discuss about it. It probably does not matter in performance but I personally do not like companies cutting corners on raw material and charge me the same premium price.

Group III is marketed as synthetic, Google Mobil vs. Castrol you will find out why.
Here is a low down on oil groups.

russianDude

ASL 5w-30 is a perfect match for my 2001 Acura CL-S (what owners manual recommends).

JohnCollins, your argument was that synthetic oil does not make sense, and my argument that it DOES make sense. I
It also looks like you are using synthetic oil (even if its only for 7,500 miles), and I am sure you pay for it $4-5 qt. So I am confused, what is your point?

JohnCollins

RussianDude, I never argued that synthetic doesn't make sense. I like synthetics. I don't know where you got that idea.

I was saying I don't fully understand all the technical arguments (who can, but a lubrication engineer?), but I was saying all the posts about the cost differences are rather silly.

Many argue that high quality dinos are as good as synths, so we should save our money. I don't know that this is true, but so far I've not seen anyone argue that dinos are better than synths, only that they are as good, so why pay the extra money.

My point is that the money isn't material. It's peanuts! So go ahead and use synth. I stated that I use synth (or thought I did until I read TunedTL's post). So you totally misread my first post somehow. Go read it again. I'm not arguing against synths.

My point is if you use dino at $1.50 per qt, or my Amsoil at $5 per qt (let's not quibble over what we pay), if they both go to the MID recommended interval (which for me is surprisingly close to the Amsoil recommended 7,500 mile interval) then the costs differences amount to maybe two-tenths of a penny per mile.

It's a $30K car! I probably put between $2,700 and $3,000+ in gasoline in my car each year! What about maintenance? Detailing supplies? Accessories? The argument about not using synthetics because dino may be as good, so save the money. . .at one penny every 4-5 miles???? I think that argument is absurd!

I'm not saying dino isn't just as good, I couldn't possibly know and I have neither the time nor the interest to educate myself enough to have an informed opinion on it. But my argument is this.

A) Dino may be as good as synth at MID drain intervals, but. . .

B) Nobody argues synthetics are worse than dino. . .they may not be better, but they could be, so there is only upside to using synth, no downside, and

C) The price differences are laughable when put into context of total cost of ownership. So,

Use synthetics.

Maybe I didn't express myself well in my first post, but I certainly wasn't arguing against synth. Don't know how you came away with that.

If someone wants to tell me their dino is as good as synth, I'd say fine, use it. . .in your car. If someone tells me there is not enough evidence to support my decision to spend more money on synthetic based on the percentage price differences between the oils, I'd laugh at them. They don't know how to frame up economic questions.

You have to look at the cost differences in light of total cost of ownership, not the price difference between the oil used in an oil change. That's, frankly, kinda stupid. It's like I can get a five cent washer for the oil drain plug made of cheap pot metal, and the dealer charges 50 cents for theirs, ten times more!. Well if the cheap washer might fail and cause leaks and engine damage, how do you feel about the savings then?

The arguments between dino and synthetics should be made solely on the results, regardless of costs. Because the cost differences, although high when you focus on just the cost of the oil, are insignificant in the context of total cost of ownership. If there is the razor-thinnest of benefits to using synthetics in a car like the TL, one ought to use it. That is my argument. Tell me my oil is no good for the car, and I'll listen. But don't tell me it's too expensive. That's an economically silly argument.

I like synth. Don't claim it's better than dino, because, frankly, I'll never know because I won't be bothered to try to understand the stuff on BITOG. But I think it makes a lot of sense for someone like me who can't know to err on the side of caution and use synth. It gives me some fudge factor to protect me from my lack of knowledge, at a cost not worth calculating in the context of total cost of ownership. Without the technical knowledge to understand all those oil reports, I'd be foolish to use dino to save the cost difference. Maybe not for a Tribologist, but for me, I'd be foolish.

I'll stick with my Amsoil XL series and EaO filters simply because

A) I'm not hurting my engine by doing so, and
B) It may be helpful, and
C) Even if it isn't helpful, I feel better about it, and
D) That potential benefit or good feeling really costs me next to nothing

Of course, YMMV. To each his/her own. I like using synth. . .or Amsoil's Group III. Whatever. I'm happy.

JPC

JohnCollins

Here's the math.

I've heard of folks getting good quality dino for $1 a qt. and my Amsoil stuff is maybe $5 qt., roughly. If we use 4.5 qts per oil change, that's a difference of $18 per change.

If both oil go 7,500 intervals the oil cost difference per mile is $18/7,500 mi., or $0.0024 per mile. If I put 150,000 on my TL in six years, the total oil cost difference will be about $360 over the life of the car.

Now, if synthetics even offer the unproven potential to be better for your car, if they cannot be proven to be worse, doesn't it make sense to use synth? I think so.

I forgot insurance in my total cost of ownership list above. Car, gas, maintenance, insurance, detailing supplies and gimcracks and geegaws, tires. . .etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Doesn't the argument, "You can't prove synth is any better, save your $360 over the life of the car!" sound kind of, well, silly?

russianDude

If you run dino oil for 7,500 miles and the oil analysis (not from MID but from the lab) still says that its good, I am pretty sure that Amsoil ASL or Mobil 1 EP will double it.
So in this case the difference is only $6.75 per 7,500 miles (15,000 @ $9 with dino vs. 15,000 @ $22.5 using syn). Thats only $135 difference if u keep your car to 150K miles (not considering that you will probably spend more money on oil filters changed every 7,500 miles, unless you use total crap that costs like $2).
Now if you add the extra money spent on labor (or your time if you DIY) to change oil, it will probably even out.

Everybody needs to make their own decision. In general I agree that the benefits of synthetic might not matter if your car never has any engine problems while you own it. But to me syn. is like an insurance that minimizes the risk of engine problems. For me also the time is important. I don't want to make extra trip to the mechanic for an oil change if I don't have to.

I put 9-10 miles a year, so for me something like Amsoil ASL or Mobil 1 EP works great, and I only change oil once a year. The whole thing costs me around $50 bucks, and I think its worth it (comparing to my dealer charging $30 for a dino oil change)

SodaLuvr

I’m late to this game; I haven’t been keeping up with this thread.

Face it guys, $30k for a car really isn’t that much. The average car purchase these days is well over $25,000, heck; people spend $35,000 on Odysseys now. Times have changed. This is not to suggest by any means that the TL is a lowly car.

I can purchase name brand 5W20 and 5W30 oils for about $1.00/qt after mail-in rebate. I can purchase compatible filters for about $2.50/each, often less. Based upon those numbers, an oil change on the TL would cost me about $7.00 every 7500 miles in John’s case, equating to $140 over 150k miles. Synthetic oil would cost me $6.00/qt, so about $29 per oil change or $580 over 150k miles. So, the price difference is $440.

Let’s see here. $440 can buy me 160 gallons of premium @ $2.75/gal. I take that John is a sales guy, so at 30 mpg, that’s enough savings to fuel his car for nearly 5000 miles. That’s a lot of $$$ in my opinion.

And let’s face it here. Synthetic oils do not always last longer than conventional oils, contrary to what Amsoil or ExxonMobil want you believe. Oil condemnation factors such as contamination do not change upon using synthetic oil, which is why it is important to not attempt drain intervals well beyond that of OEM recommendations unless previously verified by oil analysis, which, is questionable. Even if contamination wasn’t an issue, synthetic oils provide a 50% longer service interval, at most, over conventional oils. Even on BITOG, rarely do you see someone run synthetic oils for more than 12,000 miles and still see decent results.

As for the comparing oil composition, the entire game is dumb. For a daily driver, there are many ways to “skin a cat” when it comes to producing a quality synthetic oil. Group IV does have its advantages theoretically, but the differences are negligible for daily drivers. More important is the additive package.

For those who insist on using synthetic oils, I think any of the 5W20 synthetic oils on the market right now are very good. Amsoil’s XL 5W20 is probably the least expensive (unless you find some major sale on another brand) if you have the right sources. Their EaO filter is arguably a technological breakthrough in filtration right now and is capable of a very, very long service life. I think I’d feel comfortable changing the oil filter at every other oil change per Honda’s recommendations when running the EaO filter or even the K&N or M1 EP filters. Remember that efficiency does go up a bit as the element picks up more contaminants…of course there’s a limiting point, but I doubt that you’ll reach it.

On my GM 4-cyl beater, I used the cheapest 5W30 oil and filters I could find and changed them every 7-10k miles for the majority of the vehicle’s 96,000 mi life. Oil consumption was at a steady 1 qt/2-3k miles (excellent for that engine family) and the vehicle was used for mostly 1-2 mi trips. There only a light coating of varnish on all of the engine’s internal components upon valve cover removal. Of course, YMMV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36UCHhOXWs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=M3BAg2DdNII

TunedTL

FWIW, most "synthetic" OTC (e.g. Group III) oil are dino oil, including Castrol (except 0w-30 made in German), Pennzoil, now Mobil 1.
Perhaps everyone can ease up on number comparasion since 1) what one decides to put into his engine is a personal choice 2) you are comparing dino with dino (ok, super hydro-cracked dino that is marketed as synthetic).

SodaLuvr

It's not so much the base oil, its the additive package.

Synthetic oils are considered top-tier products in their respective manufacturer's line-ups and will use the top of the line additive package. The entry-level mineral oils will be using a lesser, bare minimum additive pack.

Just something to consider.

JohnCollins

Exactly! I thought we were in agreement, and it appears we are. That's it exactly. It's like a little cheap insurance. It might not matter, but if it could be beneficial, then why not use it? Although comparing the direct costs of the products seems like there are huge differences, properly analyzed, given all the other costs of running your TL, this potential insurance is practically free.

Heck, I just spent over a hundred clams for TL floor mats! That's about the oil cost differences for me for 1.5-2 years!.

That's why I went with a premium oil and quit reading BITOG. I think the premium oil is a little of very, very cheap insurance, and I don't understand the arguments at BITOG anyway.

JPC

JohnCollins

SodaLuvr, I've always enjoyed your posts, thanks for chiming in. You are right, it's a personal choice. You are more knowledgeable than I am, and can make a more informed decision, too. I'm glad to hear you think Amsoil XL 5W-20 is good stuff, too, even if you don't necessarily think it's worth the extra money. At least I feel like I'm using good product because someone who can evaluate it more knowledgably than I can endorses it.

When you run the numbers, though you're again focusing on the cost difference between the oil products. So you get a $440 number. It's the magnitude I'm interested in, not the actual number, and while $440 is a nice sum of money (nice weekend downtown in a fancy hotel with fine dinner - lots of gas, as you point out - a new "toy" for some other hobby), spread over the entire 150,000 miles, the time it takes to drive that, and calculated as a percentage of total cost of ownership for that period of time, it is relatively insignificant. That fact is inarguable, it's true. It's also inarguable that $440 is a nice chunk of change. They are both facts. The difference is in the perception.

I'm a financial guy, with an economics education, so I'm trained to view things this way. Cost/benefit analysis, component costs in the context of the bigger picture. Whether you agree with me or not is immaterial--every business school course on analyzing questions like this goes my way. But, you still don't have to reason that way, it is a personal choice, and we all own our own cars. I realize most folks not trained this way don't think this way, however.

But I think my argument stands for folks like me, who aren't as confident as you are in evaluating oil additive packages. For you, you may know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that some less expensive product is the exact equivalent of what I use, and for you, the extra dough makes no sense.

For me, who cannot be that certain because I lack your knowledge base, the decision is somewhat riskier. I'm completely dependent on the opinons of others who are passionate about their respective positions. I understand the words they use, but I can't follow the arguments, and the fact that there is such controversy on oils among the experts makes me want to go for a premium product. That knowledge difference is an economically important part of the equation, too. So it's different for you than for me.

So for me, the fact that there is so much sturm und drang around this oil question that I can't evaluate, and the fact that everyone seems to think something like the Amsoil XL 5W-20 is a great product (albeit many think it's not worth the price), and nobody is arguing it's a worse product than the cheaper stuff, the economics are this. I can't evaluate the engineering differences between the oils, it is universally accepted that the premium oil is good stuff, although it is argued that it may be unecessary and too expensive, there is no harm in using it and many feel it may have benefits. For me, from a strictly economical or business decision point of view, evaluating it on the two-tenths of a cent per mile basis, saving the money is always the dumb decision.

For you, who can evaluate additive packages and are a more informed consumer, it may be dumb to spend the more money. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. I guess I'm approaching this from a non-oil viewpoint. But given the level of controversy in the argument about the oil benefits, 98% of all economists or business management professors would tell you I'd be nuts to think about the $440 over six years cost for more than about thirty seconds, given the total costs of ownership. The potential (I'm not certain there are any) benefits are so cheap that it would irrational for me to forgo them based on costs alone. This is the origin of the phrase, "Penny wise, but pound foolish." If I had more knowledge, I could go a different way, that's why the knowledge base is economically important in this discussion.

I gotta stop this, I'm in a game of mental-you-know-what right now. Yikes!

terminex

I am a tried and true believer in Synthetic oils. Been uing them for many years in all my cars & trucks. I never change the oil below 6K. The nicest part about my acura is that even if I was trying to make a decision between what I wanted to pay for, I do not have to make the decision for 3 more years, as i get free oil changes for the first 4 years from my dealer. (yes this DOES include Synthetic, I had them write it on the contract as that is all i use)

The reason I believe in the use of the Sythetic oils is as follows:

• Dad was a chemical engineer for many year making Synthetic fluids for aircraft
• Brother is a chemical engineer who goes over this stuff at nauseum
• I keep cars till about 60K or 70K, then give them to a family member who will drive them till they die
• My brother didn't believe in synthetics, and killed the engines on 3 cars
• That same brother has had my majorly modified GTP for over 2 years and no problems with the engine even though it is doing almost double the original HP

The most important thing to remember though, is that it is a personal choice. The factors / facts / opinions that sway me, may or may not sway others. focus on the facts / opinions that you believe (not necessarily agree with) and ignore the others.

Finalyy - get off the fence and make a damn decision:-)

TunedTL

True but base stock makes up 85% of the final product. It is a little naive to call an oil synthetic when most of it is dino. If base stock is not important, why not use Group I and II and use the same advanced additive package? Yes, legally you can call it, but that was decided by lawyers and only in the U.S.
Something also to consider, oil companies care about profit margin more than how much wear in our engine. When PAO become expensive, everyone goes for cheaper Group III. In Mobil's case, quietly. How does one know the top notch additive package won't be substituted with cheaper stuffs by Mobil in the future.

As I said I like Amsoil XLM even though it is Group III. Good enough for me, but no way I am going to pay >$5 for Amsoil or Mobil, if I want Group III oil with good additive package I would go for PP, which Kragens is selling $0.99 per quart after rebate.

SodaLuvr

Group III base oils are still superior to their Group II counterparts. Using the flagship additive package with a Group II base oil would boost the price of the conventional oil well beyond the "expected" price.

Well, the differences between Group III and PAO are negligible for daily drivers. You are picking nits here. The Group III oils are far better than when Amsoil came out with their boycott Group III campaign ages ago. You are always going to get a higher quality final product (subject to discussion) from a blender's flagship line than with their entry-level products, period.

True, which is why I mentioned earlier that except in situations like this, most 5W20 synthetic oils are priced between $5.00- $6.00/qt. And the PP deal is a steal and I would definitely jump on it.

rimike

What about Ester based synthetic oils? Anyone using them for car engines?

rimike

Found my own answer, Elf LDX is a true 100% synthetic PAO base with Ester in the additive package. Mobil 1 is now a group 3 base stock, the base stock is what determines how many miles you can put on an oil. You can take a cheaper base stock like group 3 compared to group 4 like Exxon-Mobil did and improve the additive package, but you will not get the same mileage out of it. The base stock makes the oil in the long run! Nobody has more lawsuits against them for bullshit extended oil change interval claims than Exxon-Mobil and Amsoil. These are facts. The new Mobil1+10,000 plus oil change intervals=SLUDGE!

rimike

Make that the new Mobil1+7500 plus mile oil change intervals=SLUDGE!

SodaLuvr

The base oil type is mainly responsible for the oil's resistance towards heat, as well as determines the cold pumpability and the amount of VII needed. The additive package is more important under most driving conditions and is more responsible for the oil's actual service life in many cases.

As I've said earlier, a good Group III vs. Group IV(PAO) provides nearly the same performance for most daily drivers. Its near impossible for one to notice a performance difference between the two, all things being equal.

Redline makes good PAO/Ester based oils, but is overkill...

SodaLuvr

John,

My oil knowledge isn't much better than most people on this forum...

I agree that it's a personal choice. I just choose not to use synthetic oil as the OEM engineers who did the testing/validation of this vehicle have recommended to me that running the latest API conventional oil is sufficient.

And yes, spending the extra $40 or so annually is peanuts compared to what we spend on other things in life. And if spending an extra $40 makes you sleep better, then go for it. I'll just save my $40 for something else.

To each his own, good day to you!

TunedTL

Yes, for the same analogy, Group IV better than Group III. I do not believe TL's engine needs group IV.

Let's not to make blanket statement, PAO based true synthetic has its application and advantage over Group III. My other car with the sludge prone 1mz-fe engine needs better oxidation resistance, which is an advantage for group IV based oil.
After my current Auto-RX treatment, German Castrol 0w-30 will get the nod for summer and my stash of pre-Group III M1 5w-20 will do for winter months. Here is why Group III does not cut it for 1mz-fe



Amsoil XL oil has one of the better UOAs found in BITOG, that is good enough for OCI of 7.5K my TL

rimike

I don`t know, the proof is in the pudding. I know of a LOT of shops and dealerships that had been die hard Mobil1 buyers for years. That was until the Exxon-Mobil merger and Exxon decided they would find a cheaper way to make Mobil1 since Exxon owns the parifin company. About a year after Exxon F`ed with the Mibil1 all of these shops noticed the same thing, SLUDGING! They all decided to switch to another synthetic oil, most of them switched to ELF and are very happy now with no sludge or bad bearings.

http://www.elfmoto.us/lub/lubusa.nsf...?OpenDocument&

Tripnbeats

I refuse to use anything but mobil 1 for my car... less ticking plus i had the valves retightened.... she just hummmmmmmmmssss now even after a nice run.

rimike

That`s the sludge building up on the tip of the valve. :wink: