badboy

I have heard many people talk about how they can shift on a manual transmission without using a clutch. Can this be done without any harm to the transmission?

Directions on how to do it would be great if anyone knows how.

J RIDE 81

Not unless you drive a Ferrari. Sorry.

datplayaz

The only one's that can do that is the ferrari, some bmw, and the audi TT, those are the only one out there that i can think of that can do that... Either those or you go buy a Sequential Tranmission, for about $20k.

badboy

the person I spoke to has an a4 and he can do it, another person from my work who had a pontiac did it.

They say its a trick not many people know how to do.

To all the manual tranny owners, does anyone know what I am talking about??

johnny_software

Racing transmissions - the manual kind, not F1-style robotized manuals or sequential gearboxes, can often be shifted without using the clutch because they use a special gear engagement mechanism that most street cars don't have. Here's a nice article about the differences between a race transmission and a street transmission.

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/70118/

And here's another good article about why NOT to try it in your TL

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...cember/02.html

Intox1221

I am quite familiar to what you are saying. A friend of mine, back in my country where im from, used to change seemlessly from 2nd to 3rd without using the clutch. I could do it 1 out of 5 times... it sure is a trick, i dont know what the advantage or use or benefit is of doing this though... The car we did it on was a toyota corolla.

Donte99TL

Yes any manual car can be shifted without the clutch. You just have to match the RPM of the engine with the right speed of the tranny.

Way back in day I had a 5 speed manual nissan sentra and the clutch went out on it. I got home with out using the clutch. Yes it is tricky but it can be done.

shotcaller88

I'm pretty sure this can be done on most cars. I used to do it with my Celica once in a while messing around. You just have to maintain the correct RPMs while shifting. I would strongly advise against trying this. The occasional grind I got was not worth it.
I'm sure there's someone else who can give you a more technical view and I'd like to hear it myself so I can know exactly how badly I was abusing my car when i did this.

Edit: eh...looks like I'm owned by Donte

johnny_software

The links I posted are reasonably technical...at least the first one is. Also, howstuffworks gives a great overview for the less mechanically inclined, such as myself.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

Basically, when you missed, you were running the risk of breaking one of the dog teeth that connects your selected gear to the transmission output.

gochan

you learn something new everyday. i thought doing that was very bac for your car.

Shoot2Thrill

Driving manual cars for 20 years + you can do it! Not recommended! I have done it a number of times to get cars home when the clutch would not separate for any number of reasons. (always a failure of the mechanics) Since first is no syncromesh it always not particularly graceful. The trick is to accelerate in the lower gear and then let off just before shifting to the next gear. In effect you take advantage of the play between the gear teeth to minimize potential grinding.
It can be done to shift fast between gears under normal condition, you can feel the load on the transmission and often you break the wheels loose because of the rapid change in drive speed. Having gone through a number a transmission/transaxles I really don’t endorse it.

ericajackhannahjamie?

my old BMW 5speed, you could shift without using the clutch. But keep in mind, it's NOT GOOD for the car unless you really know what you are doing. Even though I knew how to do it, I still usually shift normally.

GaleForce

Yeah, its possible in almost any manual transmission. When we were in Florida my dad borrwed my cousin's audi a4, which was in stick, and showed me he could shift without the clutch.

REDLINEN

Its called power shifting . I do it on my r1 all the time and did it when i use to ride motorcross . As for in cars ive done it in my integra at the track and in the street when i have raced. It is hard on the tranny in a car but if ya do it right (macth the right engine speed with the right gear) it does give ya an advantage because there is power being put through the tranny constantly without any kind of pause in between gears .

Repecat

I've owned 16 vehicles in my lifetime, eight with slushboxes and eight manual. I could shift every one of the manual trannys without using the clutch, but it is neither something I did with regularity, nor is it something I would recommend unless you have a beater and just want to practice.

Road Rage

Sure it can be done, but why would you want to?

It is correctly stated that it is a matter of intuitively knowing when the gears and the synchronizers are all buddied up - like a safe cracker can sense the tumblers clicking.

The clutch is a wear item, and a good stickman can get long life. The clutch only wears during gear changes, and can be fixed or replaced as a regular wear item for well under $1000 - one could upgrade to an ACT clutch and PP for the same $$$ and have stronger clamping and retain good smooth driveability.

Replacing a ruined synchro or damaged gear is another matter - generally, the techs simply swap it for a re-man part, and that is certainly more costly and time consuming.

savageTL

Technically, this is NOT power shifting. Powershifting is when you shift up through the gears using quick stabs at the clutch without ever lifting your right foot, usually done at WOT for obvious reasons, the opposite of this is the "normal" shifting pattern or "lift shifting". No clutch shifting either in an emergency, just to do it, or in a misguided attempt at speed (see below) has no particular name other than maybe abuse that I am aware of, pretending your street tranny has straight cut gears (ie dogbox/crashbox) and avoiding the clutch will cause excessive wear and can break (more likely) or bend (less likely) the shifting forks. This type of shifting (on a street tranny) is slower than power shifting since you have to be careful to match the revs (you will have to let the revs drop while you slide through neutral so it engages smoothly into the next gear). When you power shift the revs do not drop during the neutral phase (actually they increase) and assuming your clutch is strong enough for the application you get a solid hit in the butt when it clamps. Normally, power shifting is good for ~.2 0-60 (mags lift shift) and is also "abuse" but at least in this case a wear item is getting the most abuse, though there is significant shock through the entire drive train. This shock is one reason it is important to match a non-stock clutch to the rest of the drivetrain, a very strong after market clutch can have so much clamping force that the extra shock from power shifting can overwhelm other parts of the drive train not equally beefed up.

Vandy

SpecialFX

Dammit, SavageTL, I just had a post typed up explaining the difference between powershifting and clutchless shifting and you beat me to it! You're right in your explanantion and remarks about tranny abuse.

Both types of shifting, and actually normal shifting too, are easier on a bike than in a car because of the short stroke of clutch lever and shifter. I would not reccommend either power shifting or clutchless shifting in a car. There is no benefit in normal driving and the potential for damage is very high.

REDLINEN: Nice choice of bike. The '04 R1 is incredible. But the 2005 Gixxer 1K looks pretty nice as well, except for the exhaust.

rontatuaf

For those of you who are not yet adequately convinced that clutchless shifting is not a good idea here's how to do it (I don't recommend that you try this on the 1-2 shift):
As you reach shifting speed start gradually applying pressure on the shifter in the direction you'll be shifting to. When you release the gas pedal increase the pressure until the shifter moves out of gear ( be careful you don't push the shifter too quickly through the nuetral gate, you won't like the noise the tranny makes if you do)). Before the revs drop off move the shifter into the gate your shifting to and start gradually increasing pressure on the shifter. When the revs match up and the syncros align the shifter will slide into gear. Get back on the gas.
If the revs didn't drop too low and you don't apply too much pressure to force the gears past the syncros you shouldn't hear any grinding. The newer the transmission the harder this is to pull off. Transmissions with some wear and slop makes it easier.
BUT, other than to do this once just to say you can do it why the hell would you want to?

Casper42

I didnt see it mentined, but on the 6MT TL, it does upshift Rev Matching for you making clutchless upshifting in a normal driving scenario VERY easy.

If your doing some Spirited driving, you should use the clutch as its faster to get through the gates.


6MT 04+ Clutchless Shifting:
In THIRD gear get the car going and up to about 3000 rpm.
Accelerate up to 4000 rpm and when you hit 4K, let off the gas while very lightly pulling down on the shifter. It should drop into Neutral with ease.
Watch your rpms. They will drop from 4000 down to like 2500 and will sit there for 1 second. As soon as the RPM needle stops dropping (hits 2500, slide the shifter down into Fourth gear and immediately give it a LITTLE gas.

Should be smooth transition, and no clutch used.

If you dont shift soon enough after getting off the gas and moving the shifter into neutral, the car will drop the RPMs all the way down to 1000 (idle) and then you have to either give it some gas and hope you know where the gate is, or just mash the clutch and shift into fourth (safer and easier once you missed it the first time).

Bitium

It can be done, most cars will do it, but please if you do don't do it over 3k RPM

JetJock

I've done it several times in my Honda with 100,000 miles and it's not easy. I've never tried in the TL..and don't really want to. The clutch is a lot cheaper than the tranny. There is really no practical reason to do it unless you want to prove to yourself that it's possible.

MisterLawyer

I enjoy doing it to show off to the car dealer when I'm test driving their car.

SouthernBoy

Yes, virtually any manual transmission can be shifted (once in motion) without using the clutch but this is definitely NOT recommended and really makes absolutely no sense.

Casper42

OK, for all you "It makes no sense" people, several people have told me before that truck drivers (as in 18 wheelers) do this ALL the time to reduce wear on their clutch. Granted, the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler isnt comparable to the TL, but if done RIGHT, your not wearing the Clutch NOR the Tranny and its win/win.

But I tend to agree with most of you and I use the clutch 90% of the time when driving.
I just think some of your responses are a bit too binary.

Teh Jatt

u beat me to it... we got trucks (18wheelers) and thats how u shift gears. You only use clutch in 1st gear or reverse and rest of 9 gears, or 12 gears or 17 gears are shifted w/out using clutch and yes it reduces wear on the clutch. I dont know about cars but my cousin has done it on nissan frontier.

04acura tl

tottaly agree if done right you dont wear a thing out any faster than if you used the clutch all the time. I have done it on ever stick car I have ever owned and on some I did'nt own. its all in the timing

rontatuaf

The operative words are "if done right". I learned how to do this on a $75 car. I don't think this is a technique I would attempt to learn on a $35,000 car.

SouthernBoy

I have done it.. once because I had no choice. The clutch cable broke on my car, so I had to do this.

But I reiterate. This make absolutely no sense and should be avoided. Of course, it's your car so do as you see fit.

SpecialFX

I hate to prolong this, but everone seems to be concerned with clutch wear. Anyone ever heard of synchros? I'd be more concerned with preserving the synchros and gear teeth inside the gearbox than with wearing out the clutch. The clutch is a consumable item, like brake pads. The transmission - hopefully - is not.

I'd spend the time learning to shift smoothly and properly WITH the clutch rather than learning to shift without it to avoid wearing it out.

But that's just me.

SouthernBoy

SpecialFX is dead on right. Unless you people plan to keep your TL beyond, say, 150,000-200,000 miles, you are not going to be replacing a clutch.

That is, of course, if you: 1) are not racing the car; 2) are not towing or doing something similar; 3) and most important of all, know how to properly operate a manual transmission.

If you find yourself going through a clutch in less than 100,000 miles, you should seriously consider the manner in which you put it to use. If you can't get more than 70,000+ miles out of a clutch assembly, you are doing something very wrong and perhaps should have opted for an automatic transmission.

Billy4130

If you want to shift without using a clutch buy a tractor and trailer. You can do it with any manual but it is not a good thing to get in the habit of with a car or light truck. Leave it to the big rigs.