Regular 87 unleaded OK to use?
#41
Your never going to "hurt" a factory engine with a factory tune just by running 87 compared to 91. It will make a couple less hp but the computer is more than capable of reducing timing to make it safe. Also based on testing I have done premium gas will generally net better mileage even if the car only needs 87.
The following users liked this post:
skora89 (03-26-2014)
#42
On average I drive about 8000 miles per year with an average of 16MPG.
8000/16=500 gallons X 0.20 (extra cost of premium)=$100 per year.
Amount that I've spent on test equipment would easily offset extra cost for a few years. If money were a concern I wouldn't even bother. Most of the cars that I've owed required premium as well (1994 Lexus LS400, 1996 Lexus LS400, 1999 Lexus LS400) so I've been reaching for 91 most of my life.
Now some relevant info:
I've contacted Innova for explanation of the test and this is what I was told: " ...3160 series tools have the ability to retrieve the Spark Advance on Cylinder number 1, but only in the Freeze Frame Data. It will not simply read the advance at will."
I guess what it means that if cylinder #1 is last in a cycle I will lose one data point. So when test reported 2 data points out of 60 means that it could have been 3 due to the sequence. Chance of that happening is 1:6.
Back to the test equipment. I also used android plug in which reported similar results (which cost me only $30) but without fancy bs. Difference is if there was no timing adj. detected it wouldn't provide any date except saying that no detonation was detected. Unfortunately I cannot run them simultaneously but only one after another.
Disclaimer: In order to avoid being accused of plagiarizing somebody else knowledge as have happened in the recent past from now on I will use " " to avoid same confusion.
8000/16=500 gallons X 0.20 (extra cost of premium)=$100 per year.
Amount that I've spent on test equipment would easily offset extra cost for a few years. If money were a concern I wouldn't even bother. Most of the cars that I've owed required premium as well (1994 Lexus LS400, 1996 Lexus LS400, 1999 Lexus LS400) so I've been reaching for 91 most of my life.
Now some relevant info:
I've contacted Innova for explanation of the test and this is what I was told: " ...3160 series tools have the ability to retrieve the Spark Advance on Cylinder number 1, but only in the Freeze Frame Data. It will not simply read the advance at will."
I guess what it means that if cylinder #1 is last in a cycle I will lose one data point. So when test reported 2 data points out of 60 means that it could have been 3 due to the sequence. Chance of that happening is 1:6.
Back to the test equipment. I also used android plug in which reported similar results (which cost me only $30) but without fancy bs. Difference is if there was no timing adj. detected it wouldn't provide any date except saying that no detonation was detected. Unfortunately I cannot run them simultaneously but only one after another.
Disclaimer: In order to avoid being accused of plagiarizing somebody else knowledge as have happened in the recent past from now on I will use " " to avoid same confusion.
#43
Team Owner
Is this really happening again?
#44
Team Owner
On average I drive about 8000 miles per year with an average of 16MPG.
8000/16=500 gallons X 0.20 (extra cost of premium)=$100 per year.
Amount that I've spent on test equipment would easily offset extra cost for a few years. If money were a concern I wouldn't even bother. Most of the cars that I've owed required premium as well (1994 Lexus LS400, 1996 Lexus LS400, 1999 Lexus LS400) so I've been reaching for 91 most of my life.
Now some relevant info:
I've contacted Innova for explanation of the test and this is what I was told: " ...3160 series tools have the ability to retrieve the Spark Advance on Cylinder number 1, but only in the Freeze Frame Data. It will not simply read the advance at will."
I guess what it means that if cylinder #1 is last in a cycle I will lose one data point. So when test reported 2 data points out of 60 means that it could have been 3 due to the sequence. Chance of that happening is 1:6.
Back to the test equipment. I also used android plug in which reported similar results (which cost me only $30) but without fancy bs. Difference is if there was no timing adj. detected it wouldn't provide any date except saying that no detonation was detected. Unfortunately I cannot run them simultaneously but only one after another.
Disclaimer: In order to avoid being accused of plagiarizing somebody else knowledge as have happened in the recent past from now on I will use " " to avoid same confusion.
8000/16=500 gallons X 0.20 (extra cost of premium)=$100 per year.
Amount that I've spent on test equipment would easily offset extra cost for a few years. If money were a concern I wouldn't even bother. Most of the cars that I've owed required premium as well (1994 Lexus LS400, 1996 Lexus LS400, 1999 Lexus LS400) so I've been reaching for 91 most of my life.
Now some relevant info:
I've contacted Innova for explanation of the test and this is what I was told: " ...3160 series tools have the ability to retrieve the Spark Advance on Cylinder number 1, but only in the Freeze Frame Data. It will not simply read the advance at will."
I guess what it means that if cylinder #1 is last in a cycle I will lose one data point. So when test reported 2 data points out of 60 means that it could have been 3 due to the sequence. Chance of that happening is 1:6.
Back to the test equipment. I also used android plug in which reported similar results (which cost me only $30) but without fancy bs. Difference is if there was no timing adj. detected it wouldn't provide any date except saying that no detonation was detected. Unfortunately I cannot run them simultaneously but only one after another.
Disclaimer: In order to avoid being accused of plagiarizing somebody else knowledge as have happened in the recent past from now on I will use " " to avoid same confusion.
Last edited by I hate cars; 03-26-2014 at 11:46 AM.
#45
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (1)
^ he is- read his disclaimer.
#46
Don't act innocent. You got caught. Take it like a man and move on. You want to start this thing up again I'll be glad to copy and paste what you posted where you blatantly plagiarized and got caught. We can take a vote but I promise you're not going to like the results.
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/regular-87-unleaded-ok-use-905959/
and if someone think that nfnsquared is on my side think again. Here is a link to a thread where we where throwing dirty socks at each other
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/massive-problem-safelite-windshield-replacement-901230/
I'll try to keep it on topic as much as I can.
Edit: By the way I think I lost both battles. I will try to be more accurate in expressing myself. English is not my first language.
Last edited by Acura-OC; 03-26-2014 at 12:28 PM.
#48
Outside temperature in city of Irvine, CA during test was 72 Fahrenheit. Scanner reported 2 incidents out of 60 under stress in 5th gear. Speed was 40MPH gear was locked in 5th and pedal to the metal. I guess most with knowledge would call it WOT by I might be wrong.
Both data points show -0.5
Both fill ups were at the same Chevron station.
Thanks for asking.
About me: I am a 40 years old, male, CPA, auditor at heart and live by definition "Trust but verify" <-- I think some one said it before so I used " " just to be on a safe side.
#49
Mr. Detail
It usually takes a few tankfuls of gas for the computer to fully adjust to the difference in octane. Be a better test to drive 1000 miles with each type of gas to really see what the effect is.
#50
It is relatively cool day today 65 degrees.
Before you will think that I am totally stupid some streets in Irvine have a posted speed limit of 55.
I weight about 190 lb and still have 3/4 of a tank of 87.
From stand still (red light) at WOT usually get between one and two data points with time adj.
Usually at the speed above 65MPH and RPMs above 4600
Something like:
timing was adjusted at 66MPH at 4650RPM adj -1.0
timing was adjusted at 74MPH at 5475RPM adj -1.0
Since scanner reads cylinder #1 it looks like it start to adj. timing above 4.6K RPMs and keeps adj. until up shift.
One of the data point with RPMs above 6K was reading timing adj -4.5
But if it was a rolling start lets say I begin acceleration at 10MPH tester wouldn't read any adj. do not know why. I will run similar test later with 91.
So far it looks like I have to get way out of my normal driving habits to see any timing adj.
If anyone has any suggestions/recommendations/ideas how to run a test let me know.
My lunch hour is much more interesting now.
Before you will think that I am totally stupid some streets in Irvine have a posted speed limit of 55.
I weight about 190 lb and still have 3/4 of a tank of 87.
From stand still (red light) at WOT usually get between one and two data points with time adj.
Usually at the speed above 65MPH and RPMs above 4600
Something like:
timing was adjusted at 66MPH at 4650RPM adj -1.0
timing was adjusted at 74MPH at 5475RPM adj -1.0
Since scanner reads cylinder #1 it looks like it start to adj. timing above 4.6K RPMs and keeps adj. until up shift.
One of the data point with RPMs above 6K was reading timing adj -4.5
But if it was a rolling start lets say I begin acceleration at 10MPH tester wouldn't read any adj. do not know why. I will run similar test later with 91.
So far it looks like I have to get way out of my normal driving habits to see any timing adj.
If anyone has any suggestions/recommendations/ideas how to run a test let me know.
My lunch hour is much more interesting now.
Last edited by Acura-OC; 03-26-2014 at 03:20 PM.
#51
Race Director
Total BS as far as knock detection/timing retard is concerned. If the knock detector goes off, the ECU is going to pull timing immediately. It's not going to wait 2 tank fulls before doing so....
#52
2006 6spd
iTrader: (2)
Use premium I had motor knock & lag with regular/plus; premium no problems...people opened their engines after 100k's mi. Claims of engine being clean like new...
Use good oil; use good gas & you'll be good ...
Use good oil; use good gas & you'll be good ...
#53
Team Owner
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...OE=click-refer
The Accord V-6 ratings assume regular-grade fuel, and Honda will market it as a regular-fuel engine. But — pssst — it's good for another 10 hp and 10-plus lbs.-ft. on premium, acknowledges V-6 engineer Asaki.
Top Tier Detergent Gasoline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Top Tier designation is separate from the issue of octane levels—in order to get the designation, gasoline companies must pass tests proving defined levels of engine-cleaning effectiveness in all grades of gasoline they sell, whether it is economy (low-octane) or premium (high-octane).However, premium gasolines may contain even higher levels of detergent additives.
Okay, not necessarily but generally gas companies tend make premium their cleanest fuel.
Shell claims that their premium fuel "Contains the highest concentration of our patented Shell Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System".
http://www.shell.us/products-service...ut-vpower.html
I'll have to dig around, it was in a dyno thread and the search function is coming up with tons of thread I'd have to wade through. Several people mentioned serious pinging with regular fuel in multiple threads.
The Accord V-6 ratings assume regular-grade fuel, and Honda will market it as a regular-fuel engine. But — pssst — it's good for another 10 hp and 10-plus lbs.-ft. on premium, acknowledges V-6 engineer Asaki.
Top Tier Detergent Gasoline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Top Tier designation is separate from the issue of octane levels—in order to get the designation, gasoline companies must pass tests proving defined levels of engine-cleaning effectiveness in all grades of gasoline they sell, whether it is economy (low-octane) or premium (high-octane).However, premium gasolines may contain even higher levels of detergent additives.
Okay, not necessarily but generally gas companies tend make premium their cleanest fuel.
Shell claims that their premium fuel "Contains the highest concentration of our patented Shell Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System".
http://www.shell.us/products-service...ut-vpower.html
I'll have to dig around, it was in a dyno thread and the search function is coming up with tons of thread I'd have to wade through. Several people mentioned serious pinging with regular fuel in multiple threads.
The following users liked this post:
Scottwax (03-27-2014)
#54
Team Owner
It is relatively cool day today 65 degrees.
Before you will think that I am totally stupid some streets in Irvine have a posted speed limit of 55.
I weight about 190 lb and still have 3/4 of a tank of 87.
From stand still (red light) at WOT usually get between one and two data points with time adj.
Usually at the speed above 65MPH and RPMs above 4600
Something like:
timing was adjusted at 66MPH at 4650RPM adj -1.0
timing was adjusted at 74MPH at 5475RPM adj -1.0
Since scanner reads cylinder #1 it looks like it start to adj. timing above 4.6K RPMs and keeps adj. until up shift.
One of the data point with RPMs above 6K was reading timing adj -4.5
But if it was a rolling start lets say I begin acceleration at 10MPH tester wouldn't read any adj. do not know why. I will run similar test later with 91.
So far it looks like I have to get way out of my normal driving habits to see any timing adj.
If anyone has any suggestions/recommendations/ideas how to run a test let me know.
My lunch hour is much more interesting now.
Before you will think that I am totally stupid some streets in Irvine have a posted speed limit of 55.
I weight about 190 lb and still have 3/4 of a tank of 87.
From stand still (red light) at WOT usually get between one and two data points with time adj.
Usually at the speed above 65MPH and RPMs above 4600
Something like:
timing was adjusted at 66MPH at 4650RPM adj -1.0
timing was adjusted at 74MPH at 5475RPM adj -1.0
Since scanner reads cylinder #1 it looks like it start to adj. timing above 4.6K RPMs and keeps adj. until up shift.
One of the data point with RPMs above 6K was reading timing adj -4.5
But if it was a rolling start lets say I begin acceleration at 10MPH tester wouldn't read any adj. do not know why. I will run similar test later with 91.
So far it looks like I have to get way out of my normal driving habits to see any timing adj.
If anyone has any suggestions/recommendations/ideas how to run a test let me know.
My lunch hour is much more interesting now.
KR is going to get significantly worse as temps climb. Most of my testing was done on 100 degree days and there's a good amount of KR even on 91 under some conditions.
You have to simulate real world conditions. Driving it for a few minutes under varying throttle is not the way to do it. Drive it in normal stop and go and do so for a good 30-45 minutes to get a taste of what heat soak does for KR. While coolant might hit full temp in a few minutes, full core temp, heat saturation is not reached for a good 30 minutes or even more. Full throttle isn't necessarily where you will find the most knock. In mine I usually got the most KR at moderate throttle and low rpm.
Find out how your scanner displays KR, not how you think it displays KR. Some are much different than you would think and the logical way isn't necessarily the right way. Make sure a readout of -1.5 is actually 1.5 degrees deviation from the timing map. Am I understanding you right that you think it's only showing what's happening in one cylinder? I can tell you something is wrong if that's the case.
A little KR on the shifts is fine and somewhat normal.
KR usually gets worse in the higher gears depending on how aggressive the factory map is. If you're getting knock in first gear besides initial throttle tip in (which is also kind of normal) broken mounts, something causing metal to metal contact is probably the cause of false knock. Tire spin even with TC disabled can cause real and false knock.
The TCS kicking in can cause false knock as well.
If you have knock only under certain conditions and you think it's false knock, a tank of 100 octane will sort out false from real knock. All of this needs to be investigated before drawing any conclusions.
#55
You have to simulate real world conditions. Driving it for a few minutes under varying throttle is not the way to do it. Drive it in normal stop and go and do so for a good 30-45 minutes to get a taste of what heat soak does for KR. While coolant might hit full temp in a few minutes, full core temp, heat saturation is not reached for a good 30 minutes or even more. Full throttle isn't necessarily where you will find the most knock. In mine I usually got the most KR at moderate throttle and low rpm.
A little KR on the shifts is fine and somewhat normal.
KR usually gets worse in the higher gears depending on how aggressive the factory map is. If you're getting knock in first gear besides initial throttle tip in (which is also kind of normal) broken mounts, something causing metal to metal contact is probably the cause of false knock. Tire spin even with TC disabled can cause real and false knock.
The TCS kicking in can cause false knock as well.
If you have knock only under certain conditions and you think it's false knock, a tank of 100 octane will sort out false from real knock. All of this needs to be investigated before drawing any conclusions.
It will also read timing adj. under stress such as if I hold higher gear at lower RPMs under normal driving conditions AT would just down shift.
I will repeat test with 87 and 91 once temperatures get a little hotter.
#56
Team Owner
I'm trying to help so don't take this the wrong way. Being able to see only one cylinder out of 6 is close to useless. It sounds like you can't see it in real time but in freeze frame mode. Air distribution is not even between cylinders and you can have one that gets less air that never knocks where the ones that get more air knock.
Knock on startup is fine.
You need to get a better scanner because your results are going to mislead people. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm trying to make sure the data is accurate which in this case there's no way it can be accepted as accurate or useful.
Knock on startup is fine.
You need to get a better scanner because your results are going to mislead people. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm trying to make sure the data is accurate which in this case there's no way it can be accepted as accurate or useful.
The following users liked this post:
EvilVirus (03-27-2014)
#57
I was thinking since there is only one knock sensor it will not meter much if it pull timing based on the knock in any other cylinder but if ECU corrects timing to each cylinder independently then yes results will not be accurate and misleading. But at the same time if all cylinders have fairly equal wear and tear results will be good enough for recreational purposes. Again I am not looking to prove or disprove any theory I am doing it purely for fun.
#58
Team Owner
I was thinking since there is only one knock sensor it will not meter much if it pull timing based on the knock in any other cylinder but if ECU corrects timing to each cylinder independently then yes results will not be accurate and misleading. But at the same time if all cylinders have fairly equal wear and tear results will be good enough for recreational purposes. Again I am not looking to prove or disprove any theory I am doing it purely for fun.
Wear and tear doesn't have anything to do with knock unless it's causing oil consumption or compression loss. What does matter is AFR and unfortunately it's not 100% consistent from cylinder to cylinder. The main contributor is uneven airflow distribution by the intake manifold. Secondary is slight differences in injector flow and sometimes pressure drop across the fuel rail. Then there are the minor differences such as some cylinders running hotter than others due to coolant flow and even EGR distribution.
Basically some cylinders are more likely and will detonate more than others.
One cool thing you could do that I forgot to do is to disable the EGR and watch knock in normal driving. Normally it should knock more but I think once the ECU in these cars see an EGR failure, they go to a no EGR timing map. It would be nice to know for sure.
Almost forgot about high load and low rpm. I didn't mean to shift it manually and do something you wouldn't do in day to day operation. What I meant was to drive normally but when it shifts to 4th at light throttle and you decide to accelerate a little harder but not enough for a downshift, that's when a lot of the knock occurs.
The most knock I saw was a 20-30 minute drive, stop to eat for 20 minutes and get back on the road. Driving after sitting for a short amount of time made it knock a lot.
Even with monitoring one cylinder it will be interesting to see the difference in mild and hot weather. Mine is good until it gets above 85 degrees.
#60
Race Director
I'm trying to help so don't take this the wrong way. Being able to see only one cylinder out of 6 is close to useless. It sounds like you can't see it in real time but in freeze frame mode. Air distribution is not even between cylinders and you can have one that gets less air that never knocks where the ones that get more air knock.
Knock on startup is fine.
You need to get a better scanner because your results are going to mislead people. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm trying to make sure the data is accurate which in this case there's no way it can be accepted as accurate or useful.
Knock on startup is fine.
You need to get a better scanner because your results are going to mislead people. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm trying to make sure the data is accurate which in this case there's no way it can be accepted as accurate or useful.
#61
When knock is mentioned by some, are you saying that this is something you hear?
I have heard knocking in previous vehicles so I know what that sounded like and want to make sure that I am not missing something.
I have never heard knock using regular with TL, including on hills with just enough throttle to keep from down shifting and temperatures above 90/95F. This is at 5500 ft elevation and fuel at normal 85 octane for regular at this elevation.
Clearly others are experiencing the knock so I am trying to understand why I am not hearing it!!! Also performance, shifting, idle, stop for short periods of time and driving again, engine cold start, manually shifting AT as early as possible under light throttle to keep from downshifting... have no perceivable difference with regular/premium.
My wife is very particular and notices the smallest differences, and I make a fuel change over a few tanks and ask her has she noticed any changes, heard ping (she knows what this is), if there is a difference between last few tanks of fuel and previous three...then switch back and ask her if she can tell any difference (not letting her know which fuel is in the tank).
I'm just trying to understand...Could this be due to the elevation and even at 85 octane???
I have heard knocking in previous vehicles so I know what that sounded like and want to make sure that I am not missing something.
I have never heard knock using regular with TL, including on hills with just enough throttle to keep from down shifting and temperatures above 90/95F. This is at 5500 ft elevation and fuel at normal 85 octane for regular at this elevation.
Clearly others are experiencing the knock so I am trying to understand why I am not hearing it!!! Also performance, shifting, idle, stop for short periods of time and driving again, engine cold start, manually shifting AT as early as possible under light throttle to keep from downshifting... have no perceivable difference with regular/premium.
My wife is very particular and notices the smallest differences, and I make a fuel change over a few tanks and ask her has she noticed any changes, heard ping (she knows what this is), if there is a difference between last few tanks of fuel and previous three...then switch back and ask her if she can tell any difference (not letting her know which fuel is in the tank).
I'm just trying to understand...Could this be due to the elevation and even at 85 octane???
Last edited by Timthetoolman; 03-27-2014 at 10:19 PM.
#62
Another thing to consider, company that made tester went through a trouble to develop interface to read knock data from ECU and then limit it just to one cylinder.
#63
On my last fill up with 87 I've driven 230 Miles after filling with 15.105 gallons = 15.23 MPG
Here is a summary:
During this test MID went up by 1 MPG from 16MPG to 17MPG average MPH is 20 according to MID.
First fill up 233/14.4 = 16.18 MPG
Second 218/14.5 = 15.03 MPG
Third 230/15.1=15.23 MPG
On my last fill up with 91 my stats were 220/14.9 = 14.77 MPG
During last fill up it got very hot and I was using A/C for about a week.
When temperature in Irvine was 88 Fahrenheit scanner didn't report any timing adjustments under normal conditions. But when I lock 3,4 or 5th gear preventing downshifting and step to the floor that is when scanner would report timing adjustment by 0.5 on 2-3 cycles. Once outside temperatures will get above 80 I will test using 91.
PS. My wife's car Lexus RX 330 after 3 consistent fill ups with 91 lost about 20 miles of range on each tank, but engine sounds and fills much different with 91 I mean good different like it got a boost of energy. If I'll get a chance I will run scanner on her car just to see if my natural sense/feeling will be confirmed by digital device. I've never noticed such differences with TL. And if Acura did any improvements to knock sensor during production years then there could be noticeable differences as well. I weight about 190lb and was the only person in the car during all tests I am sure that caring any load and passengers would make results different.
Here is a summary:
During this test MID went up by 1 MPG from 16MPG to 17MPG average MPH is 20 according to MID.
First fill up 233/14.4 = 16.18 MPG
Second 218/14.5 = 15.03 MPG
Third 230/15.1=15.23 MPG
On my last fill up with 91 my stats were 220/14.9 = 14.77 MPG
During last fill up it got very hot and I was using A/C for about a week.
When temperature in Irvine was 88 Fahrenheit scanner didn't report any timing adjustments under normal conditions. But when I lock 3,4 or 5th gear preventing downshifting and step to the floor that is when scanner would report timing adjustment by 0.5 on 2-3 cycles. Once outside temperatures will get above 80 I will test using 91.
PS. My wife's car Lexus RX 330 after 3 consistent fill ups with 91 lost about 20 miles of range on each tank, but engine sounds and fills much different with 91 I mean good different like it got a boost of energy. If I'll get a chance I will run scanner on her car just to see if my natural sense/feeling will be confirmed by digital device. I've never noticed such differences with TL. And if Acura did any improvements to knock sensor during production years then there could be noticeable differences as well. I weight about 190lb and was the only person in the car during all tests I am sure that caring any load and passengers would make results different.
#64
Mr. Detail
I do run 93 octane, FWIW. The RSX wheels I have weigh several pounds less than the OEM wheels too.
Looking through the mileage log my Dad kept (I bought my car from him), his average in town was closer to 20 mpg even and I know he used 87 octane regular. He keeps pretty meticulous records too, which is probably why I've continued to log every tank of gas. Between his records and mine, there is 152,700 miles worth of fill-ups logged! We both did the math on the mileage too, didn't use the trip computer, even though it is usually within 1 mpg either way.
#65
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