Reality of FWD vs RWD
02-29-2004, 09:17 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Aliso Viejo, CA
Age: 52
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reality of FWD vs RWD
I have read all the reviews of the TL and how every magazine tells that should this car be a RWD it would be perfect. I guess in a track situation when you are pushing the car to the limit and have enough experience and ability to control a power oversteer then I would say yes RWD is better.
How many of US know how to or can control sliding a car through a turn?
A telented driver will win every single time on a FWD against a novice on a RWD.
I have yet to be in a situation during very spirited driving (non track) that would have required RWD. With the TL I have toasted everything from G35 (sedans), 330, Z4 3.0, E320 Sports C320 (no contest).
Recently over the 74 (winding mountain road for those outside SoCal) I was able to keep right up (>>> 55 MPH) with a 330 sport and a G35 sedan. In fact we lost the G35 before we got to the crest. The reason we lost him was he almost lost it while accelerating to come out of a curve. After that he pulled to the turnout and allowed us to continue our debate.
I can't understand why the magazine reviews can't understand the purpose of this car (this is not a track car) and rate them in accordance with what they really are.
How many of US know how to or can control sliding a car through a turn?
A telented driver will win every single time on a FWD against a novice on a RWD.
I have yet to be in a situation during very spirited driving (non track) that would have required RWD. With the TL I have toasted everything from G35 (sedans), 330, Z4 3.0, E320 Sports C320 (no contest).
Recently over the 74 (winding mountain road for those outside SoCal) I was able to keep right up (>>> 55 MPH) with a 330 sport and a G35 sedan. In fact we lost the G35 before we got to the crest. The reason we lost him was he almost lost it while accelerating to come out of a curve. After that he pulled to the turnout and allowed us to continue our debate.
I can't understand why the magazine reviews can't understand the purpose of this car (this is not a track car) and rate them in accordance with what they really are.
02-29-2004, 09:51 AM
#2
The same principles that apply to the track apply to spirited driving on curvy roads, especially Ortega Hwy. I frequently drive the same highway. I've found the TL to have a lot of front end plow, massive push and odd quirky steering that I can only attribute to FWD and weak rubber.
A 330 and G35 are going to be way more stable and you lost the G35 because they guy didn't know how to drive. RWD can be faster if the driver knows how to steer with the trottle as much as the gas. For me RWD feels more stable, has less front end plow and as less suceptible to push.
That said, I still love my TL better than those others for other reasons...other reasons that outweighed my liking of RWD.
I would have rated the cars in the order that C&D did, but I would have explained it better than the bull-S "fun factor" and wouldn't need a bull-S "gotta have it" factor.
Fact is no one can really understand the difference unless given all 3 cars for a long period of time. Then when you come back to the TL you would see how RWD would make the awesome TL a nearly perfect car.
A 330 and G35 are going to be way more stable and you lost the G35 because they guy didn't know how to drive. RWD can be faster if the driver knows how to steer with the trottle as much as the gas. For me RWD feels more stable, has less front end plow and as less suceptible to push.
That said, I still love my TL better than those others for other reasons...other reasons that outweighed my liking of RWD.
I would have rated the cars in the order that C&D did, but I would have explained it better than the bull-S "fun factor" and wouldn't need a bull-S "gotta have it" factor.
Fact is no one can really understand the difference unless given all 3 cars for a long period of time. Then when you come back to the TL you would see how RWD would make the awesome TL a nearly perfect car.
02-29-2004, 09:57 AM
#3
CEO of IMHO
rkilian,
I'm not a race car driver -- never been to the track. As I continue to contemplate my TL purchase (I'm in no rush to replace my beloved Integra), I continue to test drive them at any opportunity to uncover the FWD beast within.
I recently drove my friend's TL (5AT) in the same path that I drive my Integra to work every day.
For the most part, it was a very responsive, compliant ride. For city streets + highway driving, the TL has more responsiveness than required.
The only "gotcha" was the exit ramp from a highway to a street that is a very sharp circle. That morning, I took this 25MPH exit ramp at 50MPH in my Integra, and enjoyed every second of taunting centrifugal force and sticking to the pavement like I was on rails. Yes, the Integra is a FWD as well, but it's smaller and well-balanced.
The TL (again, this is a 5AT with the EL42s) pretty much failed this part of the test for me. It just about took the ramp at 50MPH, but it was a struggle with the car (it really didn't want to turn as sharply as I wanted it to turn at that speed). The wheels did NOT screech, and the car did not lean much. These are really positive attributes of the TL's handling prowess.
But I got the sense that a RWD car of this size would have been much more fun on this exit ramp -- that it would have been a "point and shoot" affair similar to my Integra. Instead, the 04 5AT TL made it a match of wits. It did not feel as stable and as compliant in this sharp turn as I expected it to be.
I have really never driven a RWD car, so I cannot tell you from experience that a 530i would have carved up that exit ramp, but from everything I read over and over and over again, it seems to me that this is exactly the situation that RWD (or better balanced FWD cars like the Integra and possibly the TSX) really makes things fun. Point and Shoot.
Comments from more experienced drivers?
Jon
I'm not a race car driver -- never been to the track. As I continue to contemplate my TL purchase (I'm in no rush to replace my beloved Integra), I continue to test drive them at any opportunity to uncover the FWD beast within.
I recently drove my friend's TL (5AT) in the same path that I drive my Integra to work every day.
For the most part, it was a very responsive, compliant ride. For city streets + highway driving, the TL has more responsiveness than required.
The only "gotcha" was the exit ramp from a highway to a street that is a very sharp circle. That morning, I took this 25MPH exit ramp at 50MPH in my Integra, and enjoyed every second of taunting centrifugal force and sticking to the pavement like I was on rails. Yes, the Integra is a FWD as well, but it's smaller and well-balanced.
The TL (again, this is a 5AT with the EL42s) pretty much failed this part of the test for me. It just about took the ramp at 50MPH, but it was a struggle with the car (it really didn't want to turn as sharply as I wanted it to turn at that speed). The wheels did NOT screech, and the car did not lean much. These are really positive attributes of the TL's handling prowess.
But I got the sense that a RWD car of this size would have been much more fun on this exit ramp -- that it would have been a "point and shoot" affair similar to my Integra. Instead, the 04 5AT TL made it a match of wits. It did not feel as stable and as compliant in this sharp turn as I expected it to be.
I have really never driven a RWD car, so I cannot tell you from experience that a 530i would have carved up that exit ramp, but from everything I read over and over and over again, it seems to me that this is exactly the situation that RWD (or better balanced FWD cars like the Integra and possibly the TSX) really makes things fun. Point and Shoot.
Comments from more experienced drivers?
Jon
02-29-2004, 10:00 AM
#4
Team Owner
See if someone with a TL w/o EL42s can let you try it. The Pilot Sport A/S transformed the handling of my car.
Mike
Mike
02-29-2004, 10:01 AM
#5
CEO of IMHO
Oh, one more thing... the TL is still on the top of my list of cars to buy because I've test-driven a 6MT with Pirelli rubber and the performance was demonstrably improved over other 5AT test drives. In fact, in the twisties, this particluar TL (Chadr's, actually) performed better than I'd need for 95% of my driving excitement.
I wish I could take that TL on this specific exit ramp for a spin!
Jon
I wish I could take that TL on this specific exit ramp for a spin!
Jon
02-29-2004, 10:04 AM
#7
Intermediate
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO, the reality of FWD vs. RWD is that, while a BMW 330i performance package will certainly be more fun to drive in the twisties, the same feature set (BMW vs. TL w/ navi) will cost arount 47,000 as opposed to the 34,000 paid for the TL.
It's simply less expensive to build a FWD car; therefore, I can purchase a car that drives almost as well as a BMW 3 or even 5 series for a much lower price. It's certainly worth the trade-off.
I can always borrow my next door dad's BMW to do doughnuts in a local parking lot. (hehehe)
If Acura were to build a RWD, the extreme bang-for-the buck aspect of this car would be gone.
It's simply less expensive to build a FWD car; therefore, I can purchase a car that drives almost as well as a BMW 3 or even 5 series for a much lower price. It's certainly worth the trade-off.
I can always borrow my next door dad's BMW to do doughnuts in a local parking lot. (hehehe)
If Acura were to build a RWD, the extreme bang-for-the buck aspect of this car would be gone.
Trending Topics
02-29-2004, 10:06 AM
#8
CEO of IMHO
Skeedatl,
Maybe that feeling I got on the off-ramp was that "plow" effect you speak of. The car kind of wanted to plow straight forward, and I wanted it to carve to the right sharply.
Interestingly, Acura equipped my stock Integra GS (not GS-R) with pricey Michelin tires ($142/ea). I wonder if this design decision really helped give the FWD Integra a sports-coupe feel that it may have not garnered if they fastened the Bridgestone plastic they chose for the TL?
Jon
Maybe that feeling I got on the off-ramp was that "plow" effect you speak of. The car kind of wanted to plow straight forward, and I wanted it to carve to the right sharply.
Interestingly, Acura equipped my stock Integra GS (not GS-R) with pricey Michelin tires ($142/ea). I wonder if this design decision really helped give the FWD Integra a sports-coupe feel that it may have not garnered if they fastened the Bridgestone plastic they chose for the TL?
Jon
02-29-2004, 10:07 AM
#9
I don't know if I agree with that. The G35 is very similar price similarly equipped, just as good of fit and finish (if not better) and is RWD. I just hate the styling of the G35 sedan (I must be the only one though).
02-29-2004, 10:14 AM
#10
CEO of IMHO
It's so true... Acura makes such a compelling package that people really do lose sight of the price points we're talking for similarly equipped cars!
Comparing *any* comparably BMW to the TL is lost because you're talking $10k difference at the 3-series level, and $15-$20k at the 5-series level.
However, comparing the TL to the RWD/AWD G35 is fair. Infiniti moving the production dollars from interior design and finish to the RWD platform and chasis design. It's a trade-off that is pretty much inevitable.
Honda/Acura doesn't have access to parts and designers that are 1/2 the price of everyone else, so with the same budget, each manufacturer needs to make decisions on what customers want more of.... gadgets and interior design, chasis performace, or a compromise between the two!
Acura knows their audience... we like cool things like bluetooth and voice-activated NAVI with a sporty-but-refined exterior design.
Inifini is trying to court performance type-a personalities that want a very agressive "look at me!" exterior design, and don't care too much about the inside as long as it responds to their every pedal input without asking questions.
It's just so great that we, as informed and generally well-heeled consumers, have so many choices in how to spend our money!
Jon
Comparing *any* comparably BMW to the TL is lost because you're talking $10k difference at the 3-series level, and $15-$20k at the 5-series level.
However, comparing the TL to the RWD/AWD G35 is fair. Infiniti moving the production dollars from interior design and finish to the RWD platform and chasis design. It's a trade-off that is pretty much inevitable.
Honda/Acura doesn't have access to parts and designers that are 1/2 the price of everyone else, so with the same budget, each manufacturer needs to make decisions on what customers want more of.... gadgets and interior design, chasis performace, or a compromise between the two!
Acura knows their audience... we like cool things like bluetooth and voice-activated NAVI with a sporty-but-refined exterior design.
Inifini is trying to court performance type-a personalities that want a very agressive "look at me!" exterior design, and don't care too much about the inside as long as it responds to their every pedal input without asking questions.
It's just so great that we, as informed and generally well-heeled consumers, have so many choices in how to spend our money!
Jon
Originally posted by bgronek
IMHO, the reality of FWD vs. RWD is that, while a BMW 330i performance package will certainly be more fun to drive in the twisties, the same feature set (BMW vs. TL w/ navi) will cost arount 47,000 as opposed to the 34,000 paid for the TL.
It's simply less expensive to build a FWD car; therefore, I can purchase a car that drives almost as well as a BMW 3 or even 5 series for a much lower price. It's certainly worth the trade-off.
I can always borrow my next door dad's BMW to do doughnuts in a local parking lot. (hehehe)
If Acura were to build a RWD, the extreme bang-for-the buck aspect of this car would be gone.
IMHO, the reality of FWD vs. RWD is that, while a BMW 330i performance package will certainly be more fun to drive in the twisties, the same feature set (BMW vs. TL w/ navi) will cost arount 47,000 as opposed to the 34,000 paid for the TL.
It's simply less expensive to build a FWD car; therefore, I can purchase a car that drives almost as well as a BMW 3 or even 5 series for a much lower price. It's certainly worth the trade-off.
I can always borrow my next door dad's BMW to do doughnuts in a local parking lot. (hehehe)
If Acura were to build a RWD, the extreme bang-for-the buck aspect of this car would be gone.
02-29-2004, 10:57 AM
#11
Advanced
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no doubt that RWD is better at spirited driving. With that said, most people never push a car to its limits anyway. FWD will always understeer (the car wants to keep going straight or plow) which is not unsettling to most people. RWD car can actually oversteer (the back end is rotating faster than the front). Very few people are comfortable with this. One reason sports cars have wider rear tires and narrower front tires is to move the balance of the car more towards understeer than oversteer (in fact many over compensate the balance is towards understeer). FWD is better in slick conditions. Primarily because the drive is always in the direction you are steering (RWD is in what ever direction the rear wheels are facing which isn't necessarily the right direction when sliding in slick conditions).
When I began looking at a new sedan, I was convinced I wanted RWD. The reason is I wanted my sedan to perform like my sports car. I realized that this is NEVER going to happen. No 4 door sedan (regardless of RWD) will EVER be able to perform like a dedicated 2 seat RWD sports car. I will always be disappointed with performance (since I'm comparing it to a dedicated sports car). My wife must go to work regardless of the weather and FWD has a real advantage. The TL's performance/price is hard to beat. I decided the TL even with FWD is better than the 330, G35, Maxima, etc. There is no right answer, it is a matter of personal preferences.
Many real enthusiasts will tell you it's more fun to drive an inferior car at 95% of its capability than a very capable car at 60% of its capability. With FWD, most people are willing to push closer to the limit because the car won't bite them with oversteer.
When I began looking at a new sedan, I was convinced I wanted RWD. The reason is I wanted my sedan to perform like my sports car. I realized that this is NEVER going to happen. No 4 door sedan (regardless of RWD) will EVER be able to perform like a dedicated 2 seat RWD sports car. I will always be disappointed with performance (since I'm comparing it to a dedicated sports car). My wife must go to work regardless of the weather and FWD has a real advantage. The TL's performance/price is hard to beat. I decided the TL even with FWD is better than the 330, G35, Maxima, etc. There is no right answer, it is a matter of personal preferences.
Many real enthusiasts will tell you it's more fun to drive an inferior car at 95% of its capability than a very capable car at 60% of its capability. With FWD, most people are willing to push closer to the limit because the car won't bite them with oversteer.
02-29-2004, 11:07 AM
#12
Retired MOD
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
Age: 46
Posts: 3,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Biggest advantage of RWD is weight balance. The reason BMW and other car makers prefer RWD is not so much because of drivilabilty factors, but weight balance. A 50/50 weight ratio car can outhandle a 40/60, just a fact. There are drawbacks to RWD, but with technologies these days they are not a big factor anymore.
AWD does not give such a great weight balance as RWD, but then it increases your traction in almost every aspect.
AWD does not give such a great weight balance as RWD, but then it increases your traction in almost every aspect.
02-29-2004, 11:15 AM
#13
CEO of IMHO
There are 2 TLs at work, and both owners are quite happy with their stock tires. 
Oh, and neither have NAVI
Ah well... Let me know if you come to Philly with your A/S TL, Mike!
Jon
Oh, and neither have NAVI
Ah well... Let me know if you come to Philly with your A/S TL, Mike!
Jon
Originally posted by svtmike
See if someone with a TL w/o EL42s can let you try it. The Pilot Sport A/S transformed the handling of my car.
Mike
See if someone with a TL w/o EL42s can let you try it. The Pilot Sport A/S transformed the handling of my car.
Mike
02-29-2004, 11:50 AM
#14
Team Owner
Originally posted by JonDeutsch
Ah well... Let me know if you come to Philly with your A/S TL, Mike!
Ah well... Let me know if you come to Philly with your A/S TL, Mike!
Mike
02-29-2004, 11:57 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Age: 64
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RWD's advantage is all about balance. Having the engine and transmission on top of the drive wheels is great for traction but sucks for handling. That's why FWD cars oversteer so badly. A RWD car is more neutral and communicates better - especially at the limit. Like everyone's said, for rush hour traffic and routine driving FWD is fine. At or near the limit, RWD will come out ahead everytime.
02-29-2004, 11:57 AM
#16
CEO of IMHO
What a waste of a perfect semi-continental road trip! Ahhh, families...
Originally posted by svtmike
Never been to Philly, might get to the DC area this year to see friends. Bad news, though, is it'll be in the Odyssey.
Mike
Never been to Philly, might get to the DC area this year to see friends. Bad news, though, is it'll be in the Odyssey.
Mike
02-29-2004, 11:58 AM
#17
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Age: 68
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Reality of FWD vs RWD
Not all the time. Even in normal driving conditions you can tell the difference between the 2. RWD cars have more responsive steering (like on the freeway), and just take turns much nicer.
Originally posted by rkilian
I have read all the reviews of the TL and how every magazine tells that should this car be a RWD it would be perfect. I guess in a track situation when you are pushing the car to the limit and have enough experience and ability to control a power oversteer then I would say yes RWD is better.
How many of US know how to or can control sliding a car through a turn?
A telented driver will win every single time on a FWD against a novice on a RWD.
I have yet to be in a situation during very spirited driving (non track) that would have required RWD. With the TL I have toasted everything from G35 (sedans), 330, Z4 3.0, E320 Sports C320 (no contest).
Recently over the 74 (winding mountain road for those outside SoCal) I was able to keep right up (>>> 55 MPH) with a 330 sport and a G35 sedan. In fact we lost the G35 before we got to the crest. The reason we lost him was he almost lost it while accelerating to come out of a curve. After that he pulled to the turnout and allowed us to continue our debate.
I can't understand why the magazine reviews can't understand the purpose of this car (this is not a track car) and rate them in accordance with what they really are.
I have read all the reviews of the TL and how every magazine tells that should this car be a RWD it would be perfect. I guess in a track situation when you are pushing the car to the limit and have enough experience and ability to control a power oversteer then I would say yes RWD is better.
How many of US know how to or can control sliding a car through a turn?
A telented driver will win every single time on a FWD against a novice on a RWD.
I have yet to be in a situation during very spirited driving (non track) that would have required RWD. With the TL I have toasted everything from G35 (sedans), 330, Z4 3.0, E320 Sports C320 (no contest).
Recently over the 74 (winding mountain road for those outside SoCal) I was able to keep right up (>>> 55 MPH) with a 330 sport and a G35 sedan. In fact we lost the G35 before we got to the crest. The reason we lost him was he almost lost it while accelerating to come out of a curve. After that he pulled to the turnout and allowed us to continue our debate.
I can't understand why the magazine reviews can't understand the purpose of this car (this is not a track car) and rate them in accordance with what they really are.
02-29-2004, 09:48 PM
#20
Team Nighthawk Water Boy
One reason why i bought the TL was b/c of its FWD... and not RWd...
I've only driven FWD's and nothing else... I haven't been to a track or anything. I think with the FWD is enough for daily drive.. and some decent fun..
I've only driven FWD's and nothing else... I haven't been to a track or anything. I think with the FWD is enough for daily drive.. and some decent fun..
03-01-2004, 07:20 AM
#21
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: USA
Age: 68
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by danno
There is no comparison in "FIT & FINISH" between the TL and G35. The G35 has a "FISHER PRICE" interior
There is no comparison in "FIT & FINISH" between the TL and G35. The G35 has a "FISHER PRICE" interior
03-01-2004, 09:08 AM
#22
Originally posted by TL_6SPD
Here we go with the negative comments when they aren't true.
Here we go with the negative comments when they aren't true.
Personally I would have taken the G35 over the TL but I didn't like the exterior styling of the G35.
03-01-2004, 09:29 AM
#23
Drifting
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portsmouth, RI
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by BarryH
RWD's advantage is all about balance. Having the engine and transmission on top of the drive wheels is great for traction but sucks for handling. That's why FWD cars oversteer so badly. A RWD car is more neutral and communicates better - especially at the limit. Like everyone's said, for rush hour traffic and routine driving FWD is fine. At or near the limit, RWD will come out ahead everytime.
RWD's advantage is all about balance. Having the engine and transmission on top of the drive wheels is great for traction but sucks for handling. That's why FWD cars oversteer so badly. A RWD car is more neutral and communicates better - especially at the limit. Like everyone's said, for rush hour traffic and routine driving FWD is fine. At or near the limit, RWD will come out ahead everytime.
Older Porsche 911s OVERsteered badly.
03-02-2004, 05:49 PM
#24
Andrenaline Junkie
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just went to the Infiniti dealer to look at the new QX56 and looked at the G35 again. One thing I will say about the interior is I really like the Infiniti logo on the leather seats. I wish Acura would have done something similar.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
joflewbyu2
5G TLX (2015-2020)
105
08-18-2019 10:38 PM
jterp7
3G MDX (2014-2020)
9
02-03-2016 08:34 PM
