winstrolvtec

Give me some credit. Look honestly the G37 is faster than the G35, hp:weight and all, I understand all that, take it for whats it's worth, I'm not certified or anything, but I took a lot of auto tech courses a few years ago. That extra hp doesn't show up in the 0-60 or 1/4. It's more top end, frankly, where the g35 was a little short before. I spent a lot of time in that car, 1st to 3rd were sick, 4th was little flat, it had basic bolts too. Rated at about 300 hp to the wheels. The article is fine, here is the link http://www.automobilemag.com/feature...yno/index.html A little misleading, those are stock g35 engine rated #'s, and no actual # comparisons of any other figures at all. These magazines are just marketing media. Stillen got 300hp with their intake on the 3.7 dyno. 285 is a good average for the g37, so is 255 on the TL. Just for good measure, the g35 6mt average is 260. The gearing issue is still hard fact, no contest. The SAE standards were revized for a reason, they are pretty strict now, it lowered a lot of hp figures. So a 15% loss is now 10% and so forth. The underrating is now just low drivetrain loss, but it doesn't matter because you have to look at the bottom line any way. And here is the link for the BMW rig.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=117669
The ten car thing is poor driver, thats all.

I hate cars

It seems like Hondas have great top end because FWD sucks so bad and they have no torque. In comparison to the launch, I guess they do have good top end.

winstrolvtec

Ok, sorry you got me started, but it's informative. So as you can see, Automobile got what I claimed was average about 285 hp. Now they claimd this was 51 some hp more than the g35 they tested. So they are saying they got 235hp on the g35, maybe, but that's low. Google it or something. That's why it's important to test on the same day, under the same conditions. I don't buy into these magazines, there are paid to write crap. I use well documented and research figures, usually the higher ones, and average them together, still variables do exist. Again you can see that they were quite vague saying the g35 6MT made 293 hp, but they didn't tell you it was the stock engine figures. They want you to believe these things are underrated. Actually the TLS and the BMW 335 have lower drivetrain losses. Again, I dont believe there is such a thing as underrated anymore, but if you wanted to make a case, you can make one for Acura too. Automobile also says the tq drops off only slighty, reality is it's a pretty good drop, and hp levels off from 6.5 rpm to redline at 7.5. Same behavior as the 3.5, just cleaned up a little. Basically it still has low gearing to acheive better acceleration, but drops off the powerband, high end. That's why I said it's good 1st to 3rd. Racing in higher gears means the rpms will stay in that flat and drop range, the TL is completely the opposite. The tq curve is completely flat, drops to only 90% max, and the hp peaks until redline with no flatline. So if you got a jump on a g37 in a TLS there is a good chance he will not catch you until you top out. 147 mph to their 155mph.
http://www.dragtimes.com/2008-Infini...phs-12346.html

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

^^ All 6MT TL's are good for ~152 mph. They're drag limited, not governed. I believe the 3G Type-S 5AT is limited to around 135 though.

Dave_B

So much misinformation regarding the G, powerbands, gearing, etc. it's pointless to even get started.

It's Clutch

iTrader: (6)

so far here is what im able to grab from his garage..

his tl has these mods:
Pre-cat deletes, J-Pipe, Test Pipe, Custom Cat back Exhaust, Injen CAI

I dun think you can kill that G37S by 10 car lengths, he must''ve been a terrible driver.

I hate cars

LOL. That's why I've stuck with short comments with no explanation or elaboration around here.

winstrolvtec

Anyone care to elaborate, it's only stimulating conversation, no hard feelings. I want to look at it as simple as possible, the G puts up 285 hp, for the most part. The tl put 255. The G weighs over 100lbs. more. So you are looking at about 20 whp. Maybe my opinion but, that's a drivers race. 152 may be correct, but has anyone actually tested that, and 152 could be tach reading and 147 could be test equipment. No one is claiming 10 cars equal drivers, never happen, but don't say it's not possible under certain circumstances. The difference in a g37 to a g35 is the same as the type s to reg TL.

JDM Inspired

I think they should go straight to 160 straight and the should make the new gauges with 180 lol......"MPH" this 160 thing is getting old you guys know...dont mind me!!

winstrolvtec

Dave you got a g35, talk is cheap, at least I backed up my experiences, I'm not Jesus, but I dont have a reason to lie, what you got for me?

Aman

bottom line here is

G37S>TL-S 6MT

End of story.

winstrolvtec

I cant argue that, but from drop or roll I would say they are equal, to be fair.

I hate cars

With a 1-2mph difference in trap speeds, a normal 5-6 second race, whoever hits the gas first will probably win.

winstrolvtec

LOL... 5 or 6 seconds
I have seen the s trap at 101 mph stock, and it still lost a sec or 2 because of it's fwd nature, it only ran 14.1

winstrolvtec

The link is there all you have to do is look at it. It's a dyno chart. I've got others too, just ask. I'm going to show you guys gearing next.

Hp levels off and tq continues to drop. The max tq range is not in use at higher gear.

winstrolvtec

Transmission 6-speed manual
Gear/Ratio TL/G37
1st,:1 3.93 3.79
2nd,:1 2.48 2.32
3rd,:1 1.70 1.62
4th,:1 1.25 1.27
5th,:1 0.98 1.00
6th,:1 0.77 0.79
Final drive ratio 3.29:1 3.69:1


Ok, first off a lower gear is presented by a higher ratio. It has to spin more, or faster, like a bicycle. Think of an industrial truck with 10 gears. The first gear usually has a ratio of 7:1 and just idles the engine, doesn't really move anything. Honestly, I have posted the opposite at times because it gets confusing. Up is down, down is up kinda thing. My terminology may have been incorrect, but the point still valid and if you are familiar with this stuff than you know what I ment. Again, my observation of the G was that it hauled 1st gear to 3rd gear. Take a look, higher gears, more span. It's the opposite come 4th-6th, the TL gets higher and the G lower. The TL spins quicker lower gears, to get into it's powerband, or vtec, faster. The G has more low end tq so it's not necesarry. Again my obsevation of all 6mt TL's is 4th gear + has great span, where the gearing gets higher, and the G got flat, lower gearing and drop of tq. In high rpm, high gear change, it does not fall back to peak tq.

And to confirm, the TL is drag limited, which pleads a better case for what I'm saying and
the G37 is closer to 150lbs. heavier. So one bolt-on in the TL, with the weight and gearing advantge, will at the very least level the playing field. It's just to say that not to overrate or underrate any car, just by perception.

Dave_B

Let's get some things straight here first. You keep saying "G35". Are you referring to the VQ35DE found in the 03-07 found in the 1st G35 sedan/coupe or the VQ35HR found in the 2nd gen sedan from 07-08? The VQ35HR has never put in the coupe.

VQ35DE
Factory rating 260hp (03/04 sedan, underrated, actually made ~275hp), 280hp (all coupe, 5AT 05-06 sedans), hp, 298hp (Revup 6MT 05-07)

In the 5ATs, the VQ35DE put down ~220-225whp/215wtq. The 6MTs put down ~230-235whp/220wtq.

VQ35HR
Factory racing 306hp (07-08 sedan)
5AT - 245whp/215wtq
6MT - 255whp/220wtq

My guess is since your basing your "G35" argument on the 1st gen coupe which means the VQ35DE. This is an ENTIRELY different animal than the VQ35HR and VQ37HR which is found in the 2nd gen coupe and newer sedans. The HR series revs all the way to 7500rpms and makes killer HP. It's powerband is immense and far greater than that of the TL-S' lower revving 3.5 (6800rpm peak hp).

To see just how potent the VQ35HR is, take a look at the attached document. It's the TL-S 6MT vs the 07 G35 sedan 6MT. The TL-S gets walked in every contest. By 110mph is 1 second slower and it gets worse at 120mph. That's nearly 10 car lengths. That's a hardcore beat down.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...car_dp.pdf.pdf

The 2nd gen G37 coupe, while weighing about 100lbs more than the 2nd gen G sedan, is making about 15whp-20whp more which easily negates it's weight penalty. SO it's acceleration is on par, if not fractionally better than that of the VQ35HR-equipped G sedan. Which means the race for the TL-S is going to be fractionally worse.

Your arguement regarding gearing is incorrect. You fail to understand that gearing isn't remotely as important to motors with fat powerbands and decent torque. Gearing simply is a torque multiplication device. If the motor has strong power throughout it's rpm range, it's not remotely as dependant on gearing. The Gs, 5AT or 6MT, are geared pretty deeped and are geared to match to the powerband of the motor. There's no laggy spot in the gearing. It's also why these cars suck when it comes to MPGs.

As for how that G felt when you drove it, these powerbands are misleading. Frankly, these cars don't feel that fast. My 5AT sedan felt like a solid 14.7-14.8 second car and felt far slower than my 96 Maxima 5MT (14.3@99mph) that was replaced. However, when I went to the strip, the G went 14.3@98mph stock. Why did the G not feel as fast? Because it's powerband is fat and long. There's no peakiness. It just keeps pulling and pulling where as the smaller and higher revving VQ30 found in my Maxima had a bit more focused powerband.

I hate cars

You are correct in the gearing vs powerband. The TL and most Hondas in general have to be in it's narrow vtec range. A car with a fat powerband is much less affected by gearing. Cars with an extremely wide powerband like my turbo car slow down if you do gears in it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'd argue the J series and VQ both have about the same "fatness" in terms of powerband. It's just that the VQ can rev higher due to its DOHC design and so it keep making the torque at higher rpm, and thus more hp. Simply compare the two dyno plots and you will see. As Dave has mentioned, the VQ35HR puts down 220wtq in the 2g G35 6MT, that's within 10wtq of the TL-S, which makes 229 peak wtq. Here's a dyno plot from Jeff at Temple of VTEC:



As you can see it actually makes 254whp too, which is within 1whp of the G35 6MT, at a much lower rpm. And just look at how flat the torque curve is. No wonder it makes 90% peak torque starting at 2000rpm. One could only imagine what kind of hp the J series would make if it were a DOHC design.

It has also been demonstrated before that the TL-S can do 14.1@101mph by C&D.

winstrolvtec

I dont like jeff's dyno because they didn't run to redline, but it's a good base for comparison. Most of the xtra hp and tq in the G models is offset by it's xtra weight. And as you see the hp operating with a drop in tq declines the value of the hp, especially in lower gears. Put it this way, if you peddle a bicycle to the same degree of power (hp), in a low gear you go nowhere, in a high gear you get great span and acceleration.

winstrolvtec

^^"lower gears" means the G's 4-6, they are lower geared. "Higher gear" TL 4-6 geared higher.

Dave_B

You do realize that HP is derived from torque, correct? HP isn't a tangible thing. Also, in EVERY motor that's capable of making power past 5252, you will see HP and TQ cross at 5252, with TQ falling and HP rising. It's the HP equation. The longer the motor can keep gaining HP above 5252, the slower the rate of torque decline and the fatter and more useable the powerband becomes. Also, the faster the car becomes, especially in the longer gears. That's why the VQHR pulls the TL-S so hard as MPH increases.

winstrolvtec

R&T, owned that issue forever. Not a great means for comparison, the G is a sedan, the cars were run independently, and from a dead stop. If not familiar with the FWD S then, you're not running so good from 0. They ran base TL 6MT times, only slightly better trap speed if any, you can confirm that yourself. While the G sedan ran what it was suppsed to.

Transmission 6-speed manual 6-speed manual
Gear/Ratio/Overall/(Rpm) Mph TLS: left G35: right HR
1st,:1 3.93/12.92/(7000) 39 3.79/13.99/(7800) 42
2nd,:1 2.48/8.14/(7000) 62 2.32/8.56/(7800) 69
3rd,:1 1.70/5.58/(7000) 90 1.62/5.98/(7800) 98
4th,:1 1.25/4.11/(7000) 123 1.27/4.69/(7800) 125
5th,:1 0.98/3.20/est (6500) 147* 1.00/3.69/(7600) 155*
6th,:1 0.77/2.53/est (5150) 147* 0.79/2.92/(6000) 155*
Final drive ratio 3.29:1 3.69:1

Take a look at what's highlight in bold text. Not necessarily related to acceleration, but you can see the difference in gearing. G gets shorter mph span and the TL is more progressive.
It's not like I drove this thing once and posted. I said my 04 a-spec 6MT stock, consistantly walked the VQ3.5DE 6MT with injen cai and stillen exhaust. This wasn't once, it was a friends, I was in it everyday for 3 years, we even traded cars for a few days, once and a while. It was good competition, win some, loose some 1/4 mile, always close, but the TL always pulled sooner or later, always. Average, 2 or 3 cars at about 120mph, if I didnt get the jump, and from a roll, better when I did jump. Looking at the R&T, that's just through 4th, like I said previously. That G ran similar to the VQ3.5HR, and you said yourself, that was virtually on par with the 3.7. Sedan or coupe, say what you want, but all 3 are on par, considering the mods, extra weight etc. As for the type S, it walked that DE, and will walk the HR too, eventually, but 1/4 mile will be a driver contest, again the 3.7 maybe fractionally better, maybe not. My TL's did this against other cars too, I'm not picking on the G. I have been trying to prove this scenario, not just for arguments sake. Again I have no reason to lie, appreciate any input. I'll try again.
You're right as far as the G not needing that much gear assistance, I already implied that. It's a good car as far as taking advantage of it's powerband in every gear. Great for city, not much downshifting required, low to mid rpms, hit the gas, it just goes. The TL needs more downshifting but, gearing is compromizing if used one way vs. another. When directly, compared to the TL, the G has less gear resistance in higher gears, actually shortening the span. It is the opposite in the TL, shown above. I think we are on the same page except for this. If I applied 500 lbs tq to 1st gear on a 10 speed bicycle, where is it going? If I put 350 lbs tq on 4th, don't you think it is actually going faster. Not really sure if that makes sense, but this is the best way I can descibe it. I am sure there is an actual concept for it.

I hate cars

I was talking in the context of "responsible" street racing. It's not often you make a full 100mph pass on the street, hopefully. You may do a 10 second pass occasionlly on the street by any more than that is asking for trouble.

winstrolvtec

I think I've got some more explanation. The TL weights 100 lbs less than the g35 sedan 6MT VQ3.5HR. They make the same power, on the dyno. Evidence the TL is not friendly to unfamiliar drivers. As a whole the TLS would be faster, so the acceleration for the R&T is not 100% accurate. Now, RWD advantage may help acheive those #'s, but if they were run at the same time, without speed or track restrictions the TL would eventually surpass. Laws of physics.

winstrolvtec

Your right man, I have to agree. I used to commute extensively so I spent a lot of time on the parkway, almost never ran in the street, but it's hard to resist when thre is nothing but road in front of you, and does anybody really want to let off at that point.

Sonnick

This whole TL-s vs. G37 debate has some good info. The G37 puts down around 270whp where the TL-s 6MT does 255. The Acura weighs less, but is FWD. From a dig, the G37, unless terribly launched, should get the start. I can't see, given the numbers and equal drivers, the G37 pulling through each gear. I can't remember what I previously posted in this section and am too lazy to go back and read, but as far as the math is concerned, it should be a drivers race.

Based on YouTube, you will find that most factory G37s post times around 13.8-14.2 @101-102. This is in the ballpark of the TL-s and even base TL. With a mod or 2, the TL-s may even pull on the highway.

Then there is a video of a G37 with Berk HFC & K&N filters running 13.3 @105. I have a hard time grasping HFC/K&N drop-in filters can make up 0.5+ sec in the 1/4, so there may be better factory numbers I just haven't seen them. All I can say is there are 2 high speed runs in the G37 and that thing PULLS to 150 with ease.

Sonnick

I just looked at DragTimes and the fastest ET is 13.7, best trap is 103. The best for a TL (found A-spec) was 13.7 @101.6 which I believe is OP Preludes TL. However, the TL was modded (IM spacer/TB spacer/HFC/3in exhaust).

We can only use the information available to us. So, from this given info, G37 > TL-s.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

winstrolvtec, actually Jeff did run the cars to redline, which is at about 6800rpm. The 7000rpm you see in the R&T article is the fuel-cut off.

It seems to be that the real advantage of the VQ35HR G35 over the TL-S is not power, torque or powerband, but its gearing. Looking at the R&T pdf file, the G35 has a greater overall gearing in ALL of its gears.

1st: 13.99 vs 12.92
2nd: 8.56 vs 8.14
3rd: 5.98 vs 5.58
4th: 4.69 vs 4.11
5th: 3.69 vs 3.2
6th: 2.92 vs 2.53

I'd say that's the main reason why the G traps about 1mph more than the TL-S.

winstrolvtec

You're right dude, your pic didn't show up at first, so I assumed it was gonna be another one I saw at TOV.

Honestly, I really don't care about the subject, just speculating as to why, at least the Tl's I have owned seemed to perform really well high end. Seems to be a common obsevation too. Iforyou, your quess is as good as anyone's.

Dave_B

So now it's a conspiracy that the TL-S is really no quicker than the TL 6MT? Whatever. I've seen the TL-S 6MT times posted here and in the mags. It's a solid 14.0-14.2@99-100mph car. The G37 coupe is a solid 13.8@101mph car. The G37 sedan is solid 13.6@103mph car. Motor Trend got a 13.5@105mph out of the G37 sedan 7AT. R&T got a 13.8@103mph out of their 40K longterm 07 sedan. On G35Driver, most VQHR35 sedans and G37 coupes go higher 13s with some in the mid 13s. The fact is the HR-equipped G is significantly faster than the TL-S, from a stop or a roll. That's a fact.

BTW, street racing proves nothing here. Nothing. Go to the strip and see how talented you really are. I'd bet you're TL would solidly in the mid 14s, if not worse. Everyone thinks they're John Force until they get that first slip and see just how bad of a driver they really are. As for launching FWD, it's not hard at all. You just have to practice it at the strip and find out your 60 foots. I got my 210whp/200wtq 2,900lb Maxima into the consistent low to mid 2.1s on 215/60R15 6 y/o bald RSAs. It took about 60 runs to figure out how to do it. I started from the typical FWD mid 2.3s and dropped it little by little. The key is high rpms, a bit of clutch slip, a bit of roll out, and throttle modulation.

winstrolvtec

Hey dave take it easy man, I dont want you blow a fuse or something. I have owned both. I still have my TLS, it's just like the g37 vs g35 doesn't really show, but it's there. Not implying I am talented, and if I am so what. Insulting me proves nothing.

winstrolvtec

Launching my TL is ok for me, I have had it for 2 years, but you try it for a few hours than go write a review. Or how about I try your maxima, piont is it will take some time to adjust, unless you are claiming that you are John Force. I never directly implied anything about track, win or lose, faster or better. I only experienced the cars being really agressive in high mph situtions, and I doubt that has anything to do with me, just the car.

winstrolvtec

And if I did I didn't mean to. There is not a lot of testing, or drag racing that gets done anywhere regarding high mph top speed, affect of roll or drop. That's why we come here.

winstrolvtec

Oh, and Dave, I just found out, you might be a little disappointed, but I dont want to lie to you. Magazine and forum racing are no better than street.

nova_G

FWIW, magazine racing shows much better consistancy over the average "street" race. While forum "racing" shows what the average joe can do which IMO, still more credible than a street race.

F23A4

Indeed.

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

..................or the driver of the G wasnt racing him

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

True but having more HP, TQ and powerband helps the gearing advantage.

Silva-type-s

iTrader: (3)

lol. im fine with 160. being that i got really close (peep the avi) i think 160 is enough. 180 would just cause idiots to put innocent peoples lives at risk thinking they can actually get to 180mph.