Leostaats

Anthracite/ebony

-=¤willhaven¤=-

Good choice.

I saw a black TL in Raleigh today by PF changs. It was nice, but I want my anthracite. :worship:

He was behind me in the turn lane. I was driving my red neon rental car.

SOON YOU BASTARDS! SOON!

Xpditor

Leo, I won't take it as condescending or rude since you don't know me. You don't know that I was a car dealer and you don't know that I have purchased hundreds of new cars at the retail level over many years. You don't know that I have also committed the advice on www.carbuyingtips.com to memory up to and including the folder.

You don't know that I know the invoice on the TL with Navi is $32,120 (including freight) and that the dealer holdback is about $800.

You don't know that I spent three months shopping every Acura dealer in South Florida plus some more on the Internet. You don't know that I bought a TL Navi from Rick Case Honda (on a clean deal) after much negotiation and many of my offers being refused as I walked from the dealership (part of my tactics). One of my rules is that I do NOT buy a car unless the dealership has refused my latest offer and then let me pick up my check book and tag and leave the building, ostensibly to try and get it $50 cheaper down the road at the next Acura dealer. You can bet they won't let you walk with a price unless it's cut to the bone. (Assuming they know what they're doing). You don't let real, qualified, ready to buy customers out of your clutches.

You mention the Edmund's price. Are you referring to their TMV (True Market Value) price? Because I got my car for A LOT LESS than Edmunds said others were paying (TMV). I dismissed that price when I first saw it as too high.

As you mentioned, you saw two people buy TLs at full sticker while you were there at Rick Case. My original question remains unanswered. Why in the world would they sell you a car at or below invoice when there are people standing behind you willing to pay MSRP and then some?

Some reasons come to mind. You financed through them and they got a "reserve" or a piece of the finance charges (common), you bought an extended warranty for which they make about $400 profit, or you bought some dealer accessories which gave them added profit.

Either they are totally whacked or you have undervalued your trade in. (The trade in complicates getting to the bottom line of the deal because you may or may not know what the U/C Mgr appraised it for.)

However, all that aside, your efforts paid off in getting you a deal that you are very satisfied with. I know you will love the car as I do mine. I am happy with my deal as well

All's well that ends well.

XP

ndabunka

FlashG - Are you CERTAIN your paperwork states "NAVI" on the list of equipment? Good for you if you really did get it at that price but if you did, it will probably be the first and last TL that salesman sells. They simply aren't going that inexpensively unless they're non-navi...

FlashG

Yes, I was very clear about my intentions for a NAVI equipped 6 speed. If they screw up I walk away.

Xpditor

Flash:

Please keep us informed either way. The price you gave is so extremely low, it's difficult to believe they will deliver for that price.

I hope the numbers turn out to be accurate and you will have done better than 99% of the other TL purchasers on line! :worship:

Are you financing through the dealer? Are you getting an extended warranty from the dealer?

XP

FlashG

I agree it is a great deal. Now you've all got me paranoid about it.
It make me wonder how many of you guys are actual owners or sales guys in disguise.

I plan on picking the car up on Saturday the 22nd. I'll keep everyone informed.

BTW, I have other financing & no additional options. No doubt they will try and push additional products at me at closing.

ndabunka

Congrats - Let us know once you've got her!

pinito

Wow Flash! The price you quoted is amazing! Lowest I have been able to get in the PA, NJ area for a 6 sp navi with whhel locks and mud guards is $31,168 - and I have to wait until June to get it.

Xpditor

Huh? That's less than Flash's price! Did you make a typo?

XP

pinito

Made a mistake on my price (wishful thinking perhaps). The price was $33,168 (6 spd, nav, mud flaps, locks).

berlinrl

Still an excellent price!

melsmed

Pinito,

Is this price for the car, nav, the other options and destination?

Because Curry Acura is offering me the same package for 33,500.

thanks for the info.

pinito

That is the price for 04 TL, 6 speed, nav, mud flps, wheel lock, destination

Only thing not included is tax and tags.

melsmed

So it seems that I got a good offer. Hmm, time to haggle this guy.

pinito

Are you doing 6 spd or 5AT?

melsmed

5A, I had enough with manual tranies.

Agent47

here is what I have been quoted so far... I am still in the midst of dealing (thought I was done, but one of the dealers smells blood in the water and is looking to counter-offer), but I 'll keep you all posted when all is said and done.

$32,300.00
$33,084.06
$33,400.00
$33,495.00
$33,600.00
$33,700.00
$33,850.00
$33,881.00
$33,900.00
$33,942.00
$34,239.00
$34,395.00
$34,445.00
$34,445.00
$35,195.00

Xpditor

Prices are easy to throw out there in emails and phone calls.

CAVEAT EMPTOR: Make sure that all the prices you get INCLUDE freight, dealer prep, dealer "protection packages", "dealer fees", "document fees" as all these terms are really just devices to increase the dealer's profit.

You can go into buy your TL at $32,300 and then find an extra $495 for this or that package and another $495 for "dealer fees" which, they will tell you, is preprinted on the order form and "everybody has to pay it- even me (the salesman)." It's a bullshit. Nobody HAS to pay anything (except sales tax). Everything else is negotiable. If it's not- get to steppin'.

From their perspective, you have made the psychological decision to buy, have great expectiations, and they now have you at their mercy so they can start bumping you up on the price to increase their profit.

If you finance through them or buy an extended warranty, they will be making large profits from those items- in many cases more than on the car. So, you will have more room to get the car price down if they're clipping you on the finance and the warranty.

XP

Agent47

price : $32300.00
title : $39.00
Florida fees $6.50
Documentation fee : $395
Tax : $2014.43
Tag trans. :$80
warranty enforcment : $2.00

Out the door price $34,836.93

6sp Man Anthracite/Ebony w/ Navi
Won't be able to take delivery until June 19-23.
:banghead: :smackhead

Agent47

Ultimately I am satisfied with my deal... I could try to nickel and dime them some more, but they where honest and forthcoming with price, fees, etc. Only three other dealerships were as honest, two telling me straight out to take the deal, and one trying to match it with delivery sooner (which they ultimately informed me was not possible and recommended I take the below deal).

The rest all tried to play the "they are lying to you" and "nobody can offer a deal like that" games. Then when I got it in writing, they said they could get close and deliver sooner if I would put down a non-refundable deposit.

I said blow me.

I prefer to do business with honest people. I am not upset if the car dealer makes some money as long as they went jerk-offs in the process.

SpringsAcura

FYI -- Shipping for all Acura vehicles is the same regardless of location. Otherwise TLs would be cheaper in Ohio than in Cali, etc. It's a COOP shipping program. Same price, same car, regardless of destination (in contiguous 48 states) I don't know about AK & HI

Xpditor

Of course, the Documentation Fee is an invention of the dealer, as I mentioned previously, to boost his profits and allow him to low-ball you with a price that seems lower.

To cut through all that, just divide your sales tax by .06 (Florida) to find out what you actually are paying for the car: $33,573.83 (including freight and all dealer fees). The numbers don't add up. You don't pay tax on the title and tag fees as they ARE a tax and you don't pay tax on tax.

I would recommend you go over your figures again. Or is the tax in Orange County not 6%?

XP

jpeart0

I purchased a TL anthracite/quartz with navi out the door for $34000.00 from Duval Acura here in Jacksonville. It was $32,800(includes distination fees) plus Taxes/tag etc. 7% sales taxes reduced by my tradin. I bought it last week. So far so good...although I managed to get white road stripping paint inside my wheel wells. I am taking that up with the city of Jacksonville. I am not happy about that!!

Xpditor

You say you bought a TL for $32,800 and then you talk about a trade-in. It's one or the other.

If you had a trade-in, then the price had to be "X" dollars and your trade. Again, as stated previously, "X" can be determined by dividing your sales tax by (in your case) .07. Until the dealer sells your car, you don't know how much money they got for the TL.

For example: your sales tax was, say, $1400. Divided by .07, that means you paid $20,000 plus your trade. Since a TL/Navi is $35, 195, that means the paperwork would show a trade-in allowance of $15,195. Given these numbers, it is impossible to determine what you actually paid for the car unless you know what the dealership appraised your trade for. You are at their mercy if you want to know because they are the sole judge of that and they may or may not tell you the actual number. In any event, they are going to appraise it at a wholesale value for their internal purposes. Let's assume the Used Car Mgr. appraised the trade-in at $13,500. Added to the cash difference, you "paid" a combined value of $33,500. However, when they sell your trade on their lot for $16,500, they have added $3,000 to their gross profit (before commissions and expenses) and they will have actually grossed $36,500 for the two sales.

The point is that the dealer :clown: can juggle all the numbers on your order form and bill of sale as long as the bottom line number is $20,000. He can fatten the car's price by adding "protection packages"; he can (and they do) have a pre-printed amount on the order form of $495 for "dealer fees" or "document fees".

Without all that information, your "out the door price" is meaningless for comparison purposes with other deals.

Sometimes, when people finance through the dealer and/or buy an extended warranty through the dealer, they will give a great deal :chainsaw: (closer to invoice) on the TL because they are making $400 "reserve" on the financing and another $400 commission on the warranty sale. BTW, "invoice" on the TL Navi is $32,120. If your numbers hold up, that means that the dealer made $680 over invoice.

That is not impossible for a hungry dealer trying to make a month-end quota but is very rare in a marketplace where demand exceeds supply. In many parts of the country, dealers are holding out for full MSRP. Those who "discount" $500 end up by adding it right back in with the infamous "dealer fees", a bogus add-on to increase dealer profit and confuse buyers. If you read the bottom right-hand corner of your Mulroney MSRP sticker, you will notice it says "This price includes normal dealer preparation and delivery."

To be complete, the dealer also has a hidden additional profit on most cars called the "hold back". That is usually 2-3% of the invoice and amounts to $700-800 for most TL's. They don't figure that in the deal and the salesperson doesn't get a commission on that number. Salespeople are customarily paid a percentage of the gross profit on your deal. For commission purposes, they use the invoice price and a "dealer pack" (a fixed number like $400 or so) to calculate the gross profit. Then, the salesperson gets, for example, 25-40% of that profit. I find it interesting that they have no qualms over scamming their own sales force as well as the buyers.

They like to confuse the issue by selling you (or "giving" you) high profit dealer add-ons like splash guards, wheel locks, spoilers, window tinting, trunk trays, ash trays, gold emblems, pinstripes, license plate frames. The profit on these beauties is often more than 100%.

The "Finance Manager" often gets paid a separate commission for selling you his specialty: financing, extended warranties, Lo-jack, locater beacons, etc.

Please pardon the long-winded lecture if you already know this. I wanted to be thorough for the sake of the lurkers who may not know it.

XP

pinito

My PA price out the door for 6MT, Navi, anthracite, ebony, wheel locks, mud flaps:

Car: 33168
Dealer fee: 49 :thefinger
Tax: 1993.02
Tags / documentation fees: 143

Total: 35353.02

Xpditor

It sounds like you got a very respectable deal. What is the tax rate there? It looks like it is 6%.

XP

pinito

Yes, the tax is 6%

Mylriahd

I wish... I just bought mine (Anthracite/Quartz 6spd w/nav arriving mid-June) and tax in WA is 9% (Actually, I think 9.1%). Amazing how much that hikes the price up.

I see the deals you all are getting and am jealous. At least my "documentation fee" is only $35. Maybe they feel bad about tax. HAHAH!

Agent47

Orange County FLA is either 6.5% or 7% these days... they keep creeping it up with half-penny BS.


I know the fees are all a game (though I do thank you for the insight from the car dealer perspective).

I played a bunch of dealers off one another and ultimately, this was the best out the door price I could get quoted to me (let alone in writing). In addition, the Anthracite/Ebony combo in 6-sp w/ Navi seems to either be in demand or not high on the production schedule, because Duval tried to get one for we to go with them, but couldn't and suggested I go with the deal from Acura of Orange Park.

Like I said, I am happy with my deal. Not opposed to them making some money. That is what capitalism is all about. :smokin:

Agent47

If you are looking for a 6-sp Manual it will take a bit of luck....hit every dealership you are comfortable driving to for pick up or paying to ship it flat-bed (about $300).

If you want or can live with a 5-sp automatic w/ Navi, call Shelly Drucker (it is a guy) at Delray Acura (Florida) 561-265-0000 x229

He has five in stock and was looking to make deals to move then. I am a die-hard stick-shifter, so I had to pass, but the price he was quoting was less then I am paying because I had to go with HPT's to get my manual in the color I wanted. Otherwise, it would be the same price. They are on the lot ready to deliver. Out the Door around $34,7K

Act fast. He'll be on vacation next week.

He called me up today hoping I was still looking, so I thought I'd do him, and all you forum members, a favor putting you together.

Xpditor

I got a lower quote at the same dealership but ended up at Rick Case where the price was even lower with some freebie's thrown in. Plus, its two miles from my house. PM me for more details if interested.

XP

Agent47

xpditor42 -- check your private messages

Leostaats

I got to say xpditor you sure like to stir things up. Most of these guys on here got pretty good deal but seems like you like to rain on their parade. Granted many have been fooled by the smoke and lights but, the reality of it all is who cares about the details and whether you paid for this or that.
You mentioned dealer financing and addons being a way for the dealer to charge you more or make more money on the deal. The point isn't how much they make on the deal it's how much or little you paid. The dealer has to make money and if they can met your price and make money behind the scenes that doesn't add to your price then who cares, thats their deal. I agree with the majority of what you've said to most people however, if these guys have shopped interest rates for financing outside of the dealer and then go to the dealer with their lowest rate and tell him to beat it and he does then they got lowest rate they could since everyones beacon is different and most dont know what their beacon is they can't compare financing deals.. Everyones talking about rates but theire probably throwing 550 beacons and lying about their 3.99, 4.99 etc. Unless they're pulling a 750 they cant even bother saying they got a 3.9. and personally I could care less if they were able to make more from the financing because if a buyer gets the same rate as and outside lender then financing at the dealer only makes the deal easier and cleaner.
As for the "extended waranty" either you need it or you dont and if you feel you need it and you have shopped it and comparible waranties and their willing to lower your rate as part of the game if you buy the warranty then go for it. For me, they were willing to beat the rate I came in with on financing and when I declined the warranty that I actually wanted anyways, they lowered the rate a hair more. It wasn't to trick me or other buyers I wanted it and I used them to dicount the rate further by showing hesitation and actually ended up backing out of the warranty but now knowing they could reduce my rate more i ended up at that rate. I'll buy the warranty cash at a later date, before the increase.
As per earlier when discussiong my deal, sure 500 over invoice, reality is invoice is not what anyone knows but the manufacturer, cost of raw goods, material, overhead (incl. labor and utilities) all have to be taken into consideration. Knowing that, each car has a different "true invoice price" that is no where to be found on the web, its not 31,575 like one edmunds, and its not the 32,260 that you said. Cars produced today likely cost more due to fuel used to manufacure the metal than the cars that were produced last month along with other variable fixed expenses and no website can keep up with the industries P&L's. When discussing my trade believe me i got what it was worth.. 99 silverado work truck with miles in ok shape needing some work $10,500 with the tax benfit. All the reasearch in the world would tell you to take that deal, not to mention the lack of buyers here in s. florida. Truck was advertised at 10,000.00 with hardly any lookers so Id have to get 11,100 cash to match that deal, likely wouldn't have happened. Sure they are going to make money on trades including mine but I didn't under-value it I did the research, tested the market through advertising and maybe I could get a little more than what they gave me but is it worth the cost of advertising, additional miles, risk of depreciation through accident or damage, no not really. I dont think they did anything for me that was extraordinary, there werent any favors pulled even though others were at the dealer paying sticker. The reason they paid sticker and I didn't was because they can charge whatever they want and if someone is willing to pay sticker while another guy is in the next room paying invoice then they'll do it. They're selling cars and making money more on some and less on others, yes they didnt have to sell me a car at that price if people were in line paying sticker but they did, and those people still paid sticker. This doesn't mean my deal wasn't legitimate anyone can get the same deal as we (you/I) did and if they done they lost and the dealer made up profit on them that they lost on me.
Not to miss the point, we both have different approaches mine is from an MBA in Business and Finance, as stated yours is from the experience in sales both roads having key points of education where the other might not but the end result is the same. Those of us who did reserch and didn't fall for the BS got a good deal.. Im at 32,400 with nav, and most of the other educated buyers including yourself are right there with me. Those that are up in the 34's for the same exact car needed more research or may have bought on impulse. By the way im surprised you discounted the details of my deal when you got such a similar deal at the exact same dealer and from what I've read basically did the same buying game as me.
Leo

jpeart0

Well said Leo. I felt my $32,800 incuding destination charge was far. That was Navi also. Thanks for the input!!
Jerry

Xpditor

I didn't go into it but my academic credentials are similar to yours. As you point out, however, the business schools don't teach everything you need to know to be well armed in today's auto market.

It was not my intention to discount your deal. My point was that your deal is difficult to compare with others as it is complicated by a trade in. Further, the value you place on the trade in, as well informed as it is, is a subjective factor. Unless you paid hard cash for the new car it is not possilbe to directly compare it with the guy who did. All the other variables enter the mix. Financing, trade in, warranty, dealer options.

Without knowing what appraisal the dealer placed on your Silverado, you can't say what you paid for the car or how much over invoice. You can only do so making an assumption as to the value of your trade.

I, too, went to the dealer prepared to pay cash as I had pre-arranged the money at 3.75%. To my pleasant surprise, the dealer bid the financing at 2.76%. Needless to say, I went with the dealer.

I, too, will eventually buy an extended warranty. I found the dealer's price to be about $1300 and the open market, direct price to be about $800 for a comparable product. The F&I guy told me that it makes a difference on the price of the car if they think you are going to get the extended warranty. You pointed out: what difference does it make to the buyer if he can't get finance or warranty and cheaper anyway? True. HOWEVER, it makes a BIG difference to the dealer.

My point in bringing this out is, as you note, that you can get a better price for the car, per se, if you are getting these things from the dealer as he makes additional profit on them. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Your point is well taken that, if you can't get it any cheaper elsewhere and you really want it, then it's no skin off your nose and actually enhances your bargaining position. The knowledge of these factors gives you power at the bargaining table (the business schools DO teach that).

My goal is to inform the buyers of all the factors that the dealer is considering when pricing your car. The dealer is the expert, the shearer and you are the novice, the lamb.

The bottom line is that we got a deal we were happy with after doing our homework thoroughly. The dealer is happy because he made money. The bank is happy. Everybody's happy.

I'm looking at Warranty Direct. They look good to me. Have you been shopping for warranties? I'm told you should get it before 1,000 miles as they still consider that a new car. 7 years, 60,000 miles, $100 deductable is about $718. I'm a low mileage driver.

And another thing: would you look at your 3rd brake light in the back window and see if the rubber skirt around it touches the glass or if there is a gap?

XP

Xpditor

Jerry, I agree that $32,800 is a good deal and have said that all along. It is just an incomplete number and one that can't be directly compared with someone who didn't have a trade in. I think you said you had a trade in.

The other factors, which Leo wants to dismiss, are still dollars.

If you got the car for $32,800 but paid a finance charge of $4,000 and another got his for $33,800 but paid a finance charge of $2500, who got the best deal? Same principle applies to extended warranties.

You have to look at the whole deal if you want to compare with someone else.

XP

mredding

Walked in to DC area dealer today.

Drove the TSX and the TL. Realized that the only car I want is the TL.

They didn't have the color combo I wanted. Black / Black Navi Auto.

Started at 35195

I laughed.

I was quoted 33695 via email. I used that and he said that price wasn't going to happen. He came back and said I could buy one on the lot only at that price.

I didn't want one on the lot. He then went to see if what I want is coming and it is. One week and it will be here.

Price stayed firm at 33695, threw in free oil changes and state inspections but price stayed fixed.

I walked.
There has to be a better price for this car in this area.


Anyone in DC get this car for under 33K?



Second question I have is about Dealer Holdback....


is the holdback really only go to the dealership? the holdback on the tl with navi is 1039.50 Thats a lot of $$ and I mentioned the word holdback and pissed the guy off.

How much do they need to make on these cars to make a helthy profit yet not take me for a ride......

currage

doh :vomit: