And by the time TL-S makes full hp at 6700 rpm the MS3 will be way ahead already because of its low-to-mid higher torque advantage. What you do on the MS3 is to shift to the next gear. You don't want to over rev the MS3 due to its turbo design. Also keep in mind the TL-S 6MT is no better than a 1st gen G35 6MT from roll. If you were to do roll race from 60~ 140 I bet the G35 will have the edge. G35 gearing is very very good. The gearing is nice and evenly spread (same goes for the 350z). And yes, you are correct about the TL's 5th and 6th gear are less aggressive. That's the point I was trying to prove to you guys.

Oh and 4th gear on the TL-S manual isn't that great either, like I mentioned earlier.

^^ Very true the MS3 has more torque, we know that. I'm gonna search long and hard for an MS3 when I'm driving. I really want to know what the outcome will be. I am a I/E/Jpipe 6MT Accord and would love to run any sort of MS3, modded or not. Modded obviously would give the advantage to the MS3, but I honestly think that I could stay even with a stock MS3. I'd expect to trap around 102mph after my exhaust. If a stock MS3 walks me I will tip my cap to you. But if it's remotely even or I pull, I'm going to flame you (with no disrespect).

Nor can you get the level of comfort, refinement and luxury in a Mazda as you can in a TL, not to mention it is a more complete sports vehicle despite the fact that both are FWD.

270 tq is a lot of power but for the most part the car can't even handle it and in the situations you describe if you start off down shifting in most cases you are not even using it and the rest of it's powerband does not make any more than a TLS, it may be lighter but the TLS is more effecient in putting the power down so it's small gap even if the 10' has an advantage certianly not something that drivers, and conditions won't factor into and you can't really take advantage of it's strong points at the track or within legal speed limits anyway, it will only show up purely in race form and that makes a disticnt difference between most TL driver and inexpensive, go fast, boy racer car drivers.

I think that's a good point and gets lost among the thousands of excuses from the mazda nerd. What good is hp if you can't put it down? I don't believe for a second that it has any sort of power cut from third gear on. But according the the mazda nerd's posts the thing is only good for a 100mph to top speed run. Sounds like a great car.

Secondly, the MS3 can't touch the TL in looks, comfort, and refinement. Not in the same league, shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence.

Who cares! It's still a low 6 sec 0-60 and low 14 sec in the 1/4. You can manipulate hp numbers all you want but it's still just a low 14 second car. The End.

I was speaking strictly in terms of performance such as roll on races. Luxury wise I didn't find TL-S any better when I test drove it last year. The materials used in the interior wasn't made of high quality parts. A lot of plastics were used and the door panels didn't seem well built. But let say I saw a quite of improvement in quality on the 4th gen TL models. 2010 MS3 seats are very easy on my back, it is comfortable. It has plenty of headroom, rear seat leg room, easy to get in and out. It well done all-around. It's no luxury car. I don't expect it and that's not the purpose of this car anyway.


Over 270 wtq, not at the crank, using Mustang dyno (which reads low), and that is at 5th gear. I have yet to see what's on 4th gear, more dyno's will be available at later times.

Not really. MS3 doesn't require much of downshift as long as you keep the rev at 2700~ 3000 rpm, it'll give you an immediate power when you command it. The torque band on the MS3 is pretty wide and consistent, makes high torque all the way upto about 5500 rpm (Horsepower takes over to about 6200 rpm). It is at the roll speed where you can actually take advantage of the full power. It's from a dig where you can't due to power reductions on low gears. Even the horsepower rating isn't much different between the TL-S and MS3, only 23 hp difference, and MS3 weighs 300 lbs less. MS3 has the advantage, and has much better power-to-weight ratio, plus better gearing at roll speeds.


MS3 is a Front Wheel Drive too. It is very efficient putting power to the ground, there's small loss in the drive train.



MS3 is the better candidate for roll races (maybe illegal) but really, really outshines at the road course track as well. 2010 model has made a major improvement in the suspension and provides excellent handling. Skidpad shows .90~ .91g and slalom (700ft) at 72.4 mph. TL-S 6MT is at 66.x mph at slalom. That is a huge, huge difference.

Yes, the TL looks great. It gave me a lot of attention which is why I looked for a TL-S last year.


Well it does suck. 0-60 and quarter mile is pretty dreadful for a lightweight 263hp/280tq vehicle. This is not a dragstrip monster. It only shines in two areas:

- Roll speed racing
- Road course track racing

Here's a dyno of stock 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 on a dynojet.



Typical turbo I-4 if you ask me. Only reason this MS3 would be good from a roll would be due to the torque and the relatively small drive train loss from FWD. FWIW, the MS3 weighs just as much (maybe a few lbs less) than a base 370Z (3250lbs MS3).

Also take a look at the power curve, it dies out pretty early (5500rpm) compared to other turbo I-4's but probably makes up for it in gearing.

2009 WRX

And just what is the purpose of TLS? I think you get the point.

Understood but I wouldn't want that much torque in that setup, would love to trade it for more HP.

Ok, stay in 3rd while a TLS downshifts in 2nd and see the outcome. That is not race power that's average daily driving power. It's about 90% of the torque it makes is available at 3k. It is roll races from low to mid rpms where you can take advantage of the power not from high rpm races or drag races or from a dig. The TL makes a decent amount more HP to the ground, it washes out it's weight and benefits from it's taller gearing in the higher range due to it's powerband, flat torque and progressive power, you can't simply look at it and say one is better than the other because it's taller or shorter. How much power and how it makes it's power is important in that regard as well.

The MS3 IMO is a contradiction, too much torque for FWD and where you should be able to use that power better it is regulated as it can't handle it and one could break something. The TLS is an excepetional vehicle at the road course as well, that has been proven. It pulls the same skidpad if not better yet doesn't slalom as well becuase it's heavier, mid sized, and a less balanced being a FWD sedan and not a hatch. Yes both cars are essentailly as capable as one another with regards to perfromance but the TL happens to also be a large luxury sedan, too.

Don't get me wrong, I think the MS3 is a great car for what it is but don't come here trying to make the TLS look bad, it is way more capable in those situations than you think and give it credit for. Take my word for it. I believe the MS3 is as you say, I just don't think you can crown it when it will ultimately come down to the driver and a few other small factors.

Here are some comparison numbers between the last gen MS3 and the TL-S. The cars have basically the numbers all the way to 110mph. The tested MS3 is the slowest one I've tested, but it's a good comparison.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...car_dp.pdf.pdf

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...azdaspeed3.pdf

IMO, the MS3 is an absolute bargin. Add some simple mods MS3 and the TL-S is left in the dust. I like the super fat powerband as well. From an overall performance standpoint, the MS3 would be my choice. The TL-S does what it does really well, but the MS3 is just the better performance platform whether it's straightline acceleration or handling potential. Yes, it's apple to oranges. Both cars look great, but I'd prefer the MS3. There's just something about performance hatchbacks.

^That is just one the point I was trying to make. It is all about preferences when it comes to the type of car as both are very similar performing and sport capable vechicles. With a few mods the MS3 will leave lots of cars in the dust not only a TL. In defense of the TLS that is also the slowest tested one I have seen. Other than the turbo I don't see a better platform in the MS3, sorry, agree to disagree.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._type-s_page_5

The TL-S is quicker to 60mph, runs a nearly identical quarter with the same mph, pulls more Gs on the skidpad, carries more mph through the slalom, and outstops the MS3 all the while not looking like a boy racer car with a big dumb smile on it's face. Pretty easy choice to me.

Dave, let's not get carried away comparing mod for mod with a turbo car vs NA. We all know that turbo cars are capable of stupid power gains for little money. I gained 200hp for $600 and doubled the hp for $1,500 if you want to play that game.

You could also mention that the TL-S is quieter in every test and it somehow gets better fuel economy than the lighter 4 cylinder.

I can't believe this is still going on.

The TL-S is quicker then 14.3@99...base 6MT TL's run those numbers and certainly the TL-S is faster.

we need a vid to put this to rest...one of our guys who has a 6mt has got to live close to this guy ( i dont know where 2010 Mazdaspeed is located)- just do it

im looking, every day. if i see one ill ask him to please please do a roll race lol

There's no way this is MT.. he'd be telling all of us to fuck off in broken english.

Very true. He would tell us to fuck off in broken misspelled English and then make fun of the very next post that had a spelling or grammar error. I don't really miss him much.

5th gear in the TL-S is for fuel economy. Look at the ratio of 5th gear. It sure isn't for racing its for cruising.

You didn't see any extra luxury in the TL? That alone shows your bias.


You're retarded. You dyno the car in 5th gear to get a false high reading. Listen and listen carefully. The torque numbers on any car ever made will get higher as you get into the higher gears. This is not specific to your econobox but every car. You do not dyno in 5th, no one dynos in 5th. I thought this was common knowledge. You don't have power cut in any gear but first, maybe second.

It's so efficient that you have this huge power cut in the lower gears. Sounds like an electronic band-aid for a weak drivetrain.
Again, there is no power reduction in the high gears. Get an education.


Maybe on slicks. Every test I've seen has the TL-S ahead by a significant margin. If you're in the CA area I would drive anywhere in the state to run you on a course. You could always run my old turbo car in a drag race too if you like but of course you won't. I'll make an exception and start from any speed you want. Surely a "supercar" should be able to beat my old junk.

Isn't that you will experience the same torque in every gear as long as it's in the same rpm range?

Torque gets higher in the taller gears. Mine made 183 in third but 230ish in 5th. However, dynoing in 5th is inaccurate.

On top of that, turbo cars love load. It's possible to squeeze a few more "real" lbs of torque by loading it down more. If you exceed the load that it experiences on the road, you're doctoring the dyno numbers.

That's why none of this dyno stuff matters, his car is a low 14 second car at 100mph which correlates well to 260hp.

The dynojet operator had trouble knowing how to load it down for my father's car. First few pulls were 560ish at the wheels with a best of nearly 900rwhp at the end of the day with it properly loaded. Could barely get the turbo to spool without enough load.

^ in the same RPM range?

ahahaha omg this is too funny. you should become a detective! haha

LMFAO!!!! I know IS350King the guys freaking out of his mind. He posts on every IS350 video, if it loses he talks crap if it wins he talks crap about the car it beat. I don't think he owns either of the cars, I asked him countless times to post videos of his car, never did he just said my TL is a piece of shit.... better then taking the bus, or asking your mom to drive ya. He would purposefully get on different usernames on YouTube and rate neg on my comments in till they were auto marked to spam so he can feel good about himself lmfao.

this is still going on? lol
awesome...! i've never had a thread go past 3 pages before...

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MODERATOR'S NOTE: Watch the namecalling.

Cant believe this thread is still going. LOL! Has the OP even raced the MS3 yet so he can get his own answer?

OT, Do you ever come around reston area? I swear I've seen an accord just like yours not too long ago.

Yeah my wife works in Reston, right at Wiehle and Sunset Hills. She either drives the Accord or my blue Chrysler 300M.

Yup! I knew your car looked familiar. I too work right off of Wiehle and Sunset small small world

Oh ok, where at? She's in the Long and Foster building that's directly across from the BOA.

I disagree. Nearly every G/Z 6MT owner dynos in 5th as it's the 1:1 gear. 5AT G/Z owners use either 3rd or 4th, usually 3rd in order to keep tranny fluid temps happy (ie 4th takes longer to dyno in= higher tranny temps = not good for a stationary car). Assuming the dyno operator understands what he's doing, the numbers between dynoing in 3rd, 4th, or 5th really shouldn't vary much at all, especially on a Dynojet since it doesn't vary load. G/Z owners tend to see 3 to 5 whp/wtq higher numbers when using the higher gear. I could post many links to this very comparison. I've done the same with my prior Maxima 5MT. The differences were within 2% between 4th and 5th.

All a Dynojet does is calculate how quickly the motor spins the drums over a set amount of time in relation to rpm. It's very simple. The ratio used isn't that important. Using too low of a gear usually results in more noise because the rollers spin quicker and over a shorter time frame. This is why the numbers tend to be fractionally lower.

Now if you've got an automatic car with high stall TC, it can greatly affect torque numbers since the converter has a high stall in relation to the powerband. The operater should be aware of this. Also, it's not uncommon for any auto car to see a large torque spike at the start of the curve as the TC quickly hits stall speed. The user should pay no attention to this torque spike and should focus solely on the overall curve. I've seen initial torque spikes on 5AT Gs showing 300wtq for about 200rpms as the TC hits it's relatively high stall (for an OEM TC) of around 3000rpms.


The torque management function in the MS3 is nothing special nor uncommon. My G has torque management on the 1-2 shift at over 5800rpms if I'm using manual mode. You can feel a sharp, but quick, drop in power when the tranny enters 2nd. Volvo uses TM on it's turbo cars (autos and manuals), Ford does it on the Stangs, GM on the Camaro/G8, etc. Benz makes all their AMG cars start out in 2nd unless you go 3/4+ throttle.

Mazda has stated that TM function of the MS3 tranny is to reduce torque steer and improve the car's ability to launch. Mazda has also stated that the tranny and clutch are well up to the task of tracking/race situations. I specficially remember Mazda engineers telling Motor Trend editors to launch and drive the MS3 as hard as possible "as you're not going to break the tranny or clutch".

I haven't noticed that. My buddy jeff drives a SL55 AMG and all the times I have driven it the tranny starts out in 1st gear. Is there a setting where you can change it?

Sure, the setting is push the throttle When a car has over 500 ft/lbs tq and additional torque multiplication from the torque converter and gear ratio, it's going to feel downright fast even when leaving the line in 2nd.

It looks like you're trying to pick a fight now.

If 5th is the 1:1 gear then that's the one you should be dynoing in. You know what I meant when I said what I said but you're trying to find something to disagree with.

The AMG cars do not start in second gear by default. I've been in many. Most have a setting that you can choose to have the car start in second gear for parking lot or slippery situations.

The power cut you're referring to is closing the throttle for a split second on the shifts. This is not what the Mazda guy is referring to. He's saying overall power is reduced in lower gears for the duration of the gear. This is not true.

Again it seems like you're trying to find a way to disagree with me. Many if not most cars cut power on shifts including the TL. This is not what was in question.

The dynojet can vary load. We had a hard time getting my father's 800+rwhp turbo car to spool the turbo until we loaded it down a lot more. It's true the dynojet can and will be off by a car with a high stall convertor but that's partially because torque is measured and hp is calculated. It will be off the most when your on the convertor. To reinforce this point I dynoed barely over 250rwhp before and ran 11.20 in a 3,400lb car. Doesn't really add up.

All in all, this doesn't matter. ETs are the only thing that matter. It's too easy to say what if and make excuses with dyno runs.

lol I know its pushing the throttle! However the car does start in 1st gear. I am sure of that. He has a winter setting I believe that does start the car out in 2nd gear. Downright fast is right! he has alot of work done to that. He put down 640RWHP I believe and I forgot his torque figure but it was around 800ft lbs.

Which model was that? My friend has a Brabus T-12 CL65 that is rated at 704hp and well over 800lbs of torque. Those are flywheel, not rwhp numbers though. The only downfall is it's weight. It felt like a mid 11 second car when it should've been deep in the 10s.

We took a bone stock CL600 to the track with the dealer tags still on it and it went 12.9@110. Only got the one pass but should've been able to get at least a 12.70 out of it with a few more practice runs.

I agree, the second gear start is selectable by the driver but not the default setting. Starting in second all the time builds up heat in the transmission.

A Brabus??? Nice, my sister has an 06' C280, total piece of shit lol, I'd honestly, take my beat up TL-P over her C280, for $26,000.00 she didn't even get power sliding seats lol. But a Brabus, now that's yum yum yum, the new concept Brabus models come with puddle lights lol woot. My mom has an 08' ML320 (CD1) Diesel which is cool, it's fun to go WOT and listen to the turbo spool.