rets

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Red05TL

My God! What an ugly thread!!

This is like saying it is a woman’s fault when she gets rape because she went out looking sexy. She should have known better.

Mark makes a post about what happen, and it is amazing how many people felt it necessary to defend Acura.

Acura will do fine, Honda/Acura will be ok. The TL is breaking all types of sales records. Acura, will be ok, no defense needed.

How stupid it is to say that you have to be an expert driver before you get behind the wheels of a car? How ridiculous is it to say you have to practice emergency maneuvers and emergency braking before you drive a car?

Are you guys saying, you have to practice driving every type of car before you drive it for real or you may die? How ridiculous is that?

Are you saying you paid $35K for a car with traction control (Acura’s very fine VSA) and ABS, but it is ok for it to loose control or pull because you know to expect it and everything is ok?

Wake up!!!

Hey, defects happens, fix it or replace it! You can’t avoid it. What’s wrong with that?

dramsey

I haven't read the whole thread, but yes, you should practice emergency maneuvers. Because if you don't, you might die. That's not "stupid", that's the way the world works.

I think most people in this country don't take driving seriously enough. If the 3 day highway driving course at Bob Bondurant were required to get a license, the accident rate in this country would drop dramatically.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Personally, I never blamed it on Mark's wife. And I'm not defending Acura.

Read my posts again, and you will see how I'm looking at it from a technical stand point of view. Brake lines, bleed sequence, ABS modulator, pulling caused by a rut on the pavement... Rather than blaming "Acura", I'm trying to narrow down the possible causes.

By the way, the Acura's VSA is not "very fine". It's a horribly tuned system, just to say that Acura has VSA. The fucking thing always kicks in when I don't need it, and when I really need it, it doesn't kick in. Yeah, yeah, mine's a UA5. I'm sure the UA6's system has been revised and improved, but not by lightyears.

The thing you need to realize is that VSA cannot defy the laws of physics. Just like humans have a limit of control, there's a point where the VSA just says, "fuck it, I can't help you; you're on your own." Such a case would be spinning out at 75 mph. VSA and ABS can ONLY work with what traction the tires can provide; in a spin-out, there is precisely zero traction to work with, which renders the VSA completely useless.

Was it Mark's wife's fault? Could be; even experienced drivers make mistakes. Is there a major malfunction in the car? Could be; anything is possible. Or was it an outside factor, like a rut in the highway pulling the car to the side? Very possible.

All I know is that we don't know for sure what's going on. I haven't made any accusations; just some theories on the possible causes.

Aegir

You will need to get the car into the dealership at some point. If the car has in fact suffered a second brake system failure, that needs to be confirmed. If you are looking to pursue a buyback or lemon law case, the presence of a defect needs to be confirmed.

There is a chance that you a suffering from an improper repair of the initial defect. My advice is that you insist that the mechanic test drive the car and then take you on a test drive to demonstrate that the problem is in fact fixed.

deandorsey

wow i can not believe the remarks in this thread. .especially from a mod.

some people have no idea about this cars safety systems (or the workings of anything automotive in general).

with ;
Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA®) with traction control
Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
4-Wheel Disc Brakes (front/rear)
Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD)
Electronic Brake Assist

this should have never happened, no matter what the tire pressures or amount of corrective steering. there is obviously a problem with the car.

unbelievable

Pro Stock John

You have only had the car for 1.5 months, you could maybe lemon law it.

My friend zbass28@aol.com lemon lawed a blazer a few years ago, maybe see if he has time to give you some feedback.

Sounds like you had a faulty ABS system. Basically it comes down to what you want to do. If you don't want to keep it, then see about lemon law or getting a different vehicle from them... not per se a TL, but other vehicles too.

Sorry your wife was almost in an accident.

Problems like this are rare for any car in this price range, but unfortunately it happened to you.

You've had the car for so little time I think you can leverage them a lot.

Gadgets

Where did you read that? The cars with the best stopping distances have ABS. See this Motortrend writeup on the three Lancer EVO's. The RS without ABS has the worst stopping distance and they even note that in the writeup. This of course is just one example.

Motortrend Lancer EVO article

stiletto

...for you to talk shit about knowing what to do and how to handle a car in those situations?!?!?

Sorry to hear about the situation. Some of the comments after your extremley clear explanation, history, and dealings with the dealership are deplorable and in bad taste.
It appears as if there was a defective condition, which you addressed, but the dealer did not fix correctly (particularly since you mentioned the rattle, and the crease on the leather, etc...) The fact that you had to pay for anything (even if up front but reimbursed at the end) is ludicrus on a 1.5 month old car. If you take it back to them, what tells you that the same inconsiderate, slob won't be touching your car again?!?!?

In other words, I agree with Aegir, except to CHOOSE ANOTHER DEALER TO PERFORM YOUR SERVICE!!!

scrb09

Horse shit dude, you need to go into the dealership and create a scene...you are going through all these issues with a brand new car and the least the dealer/acs can do is give you a safer car to drive...

Fixing/Buying Back etc comes later on...# one thing you need to do is get a loaner or Rental (your car is under warranty, so all rental costs are covered by acura for warranty related fixes and the dealer doesnt have to pay anything)

If the dealer that you bought the car from is not ready to do this within 800 miles (probably 3-4 weeks) of you buying the car I think Acura Customer Service has hit rock bottom :thumbs down:

mxtt

Why would you think that this mod would know everything about the car? It is not like he is a engineer or anything.

mickey3c

well the car and the wife was ok so why post my wife was almost killed!

As for the rest, they cannot give you a car while you dispute something. If everything seems normal, then you have a warranty and they will stand by that. We have a remedy for everything, it is just that it might not be want we want at the time we want it. They will say the car checks out fine and there is nothing wrong with it. Your remedy to a terrible accident is a lawsuit against the maker. Sure it's cold when considering one's life etc. but that's your remedy.

As for the product itself. It takes a year or two to really get all the reports in and so far as in the JD power etc.. It shows where the product is heading. No, not all cars will have the problems... but you have to look at the ratings and ask yourself do you want to take a chance on having something bad or a chance on having something good.

The tl is value priced for the category it is in.. best bang for the buck is what we hear all the time. I have said before that it isn't cheaper because they like to make less money on it...

RBallman

I totally agree Scrb. My TL is like 5 weeks old and I had it back for cold hard idles every morning and that torque lock up issue at 50 MPH.
There's no way you keep that car without raising a stink at the dealer till they get it right, one way or the other.

DocTL

I've spun a Viper at Lime Rock at a speed well over 100mph and managed to keep it from hitting a wall. And, I continue to spin many times on a shifter kart which takes a lot more effort to drive than a TL. I think I can talk from experience.


Mark, knowing now the condition that you have reported, if the car is not repaired properly and you feel unsafe driving, no one can argue with you. I can give you advice about how to initiate the buy back process as we've had two cars returned per the Lemon Law (one being a 2003 SL500). You have to hire an attorney if you really want Acura to take the car back, doing it by yourself will be very frustrating. That being said, the first person to get in contact with is the regional Acura rep whom you can contact through corporate headquarter's.

Good luck.

markdesign

I appreciate a lot of good feed back so far .. some bad,

It is a good idea to have the car serviced, at a different dealer and have it serviced to have the second problem documented.

If my wife didnt have a life threatening experience and i noticed the ABS failure early my self, I would have had no problem getting it repaired. But becase of the incident on the freeeway, it changed the situation for me a lot.

first of all, the car is 3 weeks old tomorrow.

and I just made a appointment at a different dealer, which is 30 min out of the way. Their loaners are booked up for a month straight, so I'm currently on a waiting list.

another update today (may 20)

I called acura with the customer service number on their website.

A lady answered who said she will document my complaints. After I explaind my situation she had a pre made statement that she just repeated over and over to me which basically said "Our job is to help you fix your current problem as stated on your warranty" ... something like that...

and if I wanted to return the car I would have to call the BBB and their number is located in the TL manual.

I asked her why did i just waste 30 min telling you the problem if you were going to do nothing about it.. and again, she just repeated her pre made statement.

I"m really a calm and mellow guy... but i think i 'm actually starting to get urked now...



~mark

TBone2004

Whoa. WHOA. WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Folks, we are way outta control here on this thread. We have people talking Lemon Law, Car sucks, Acura sucks, Women can't drive, Lawyers, Buy backs? WTF.

Important to note - first and foremost:
I am glad everyone inside the car AND outside the car are OK.


Now let's chat. Let me ask a question - instead of the brakes, if it was the rear tire that blew out and it had the same end result - what would everyone be saying? This car sucks? I want dealer to buy it back? Get serious.

I do not know much about brakes - other than the basic concept - I do not know if a faulty module can cause a complete tire lock-up. I do not know if the mechanic even went near the rear - he should have been by the front. Isn't there supposed to be an on-board memory thing that remembers fault codes etc. Would that show anything? That is the homework that needs to be done before talking Lawyers, buy backs etc.

I will say this - sounds like you are going to a loser dealership. You do not pay for a loaner car - they have them, if not you make them get you one...at the very LEAST, you make them reimburse you for it. It is part of the warranty - we do not pay for loaners when in for warranty covered work. Also, after describing this incident they are still putting you off and not taking it serious is the first clue to go elsewhere - I think if you were in for brake work, then this happened, they would be VERY interested in getting a look at that car. Cause if you brought it in for a complaint about the brakes and then the brakes failed like this, a standup dealer would clear their schedule. Find a new dealer.

I don't know - its not me or my car. Back to my tire example. If I had Acura put on new reformulated tires for me and the next day I had an unexplained blowout (no nail etc.) and I went all over the road, did not get hurt myself or anyone else...I think I would just expect dealer to give me a new tire.

If someone got killed or seriously injured, then that would warrant an investigation of the tire, mounting practices etc. If everyone is OK, I think that is all you are gonna get - parts fail - fact of life. Could happen to each of us any day. We put a lot of faith in a car just because it is new. I am guilty of it as well. You gotta prove it is a design flaw in the braking system or incorrectly installed by Tech otherwise I bet you are out of luck and be thankful no one was hurt. That's just me I guess - it was not my family at risk, but lets be honest that risk is there everyday you turn the key.

Can't cast blame until you know the source of the problem - bad brake system design, loser tech, poor quality ABS part(s). Right now I think it is your dealer/service dept. that is to blame with their attitude, lack of care about your car (interior stained etc), loaner car issue, repair after the accident lack of concern.

New Dealer time. Good luck.

mickey3c

I can understand your frustration but that is all she really can tell you is she will keep documentation on the issue and make all attempts to fix the car as stated on the warranty.

The rest is uo to the person to use the lemon law. Acura will also do what they can do to not have to buy back the car. That's how the laws work... The wheels turn slowly..

I have to disagree with the person who will dismiss this by saying all car makers have problems. Yes they do, but some have many more than others. And, how they resolve/address the issues are very important.

scrb09

Mark, What city are you in and what dealers are you dealing with?

Also see if you can get the contact information for the Acura Rep of the region from the dealer and get in touch with him.

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

OK, Mr. Electro-nany. I got news for you. It's called the laws of physics. Those systems are not fool-proof and when there is no traction to work with, they become obsolete. Then it comes to a point where you just hold on tight and hope to God that you won't hit the wall or another car.

Those systems can be found a lot of cars today, yet they still spin out of control and crash. Why? Because it doens't matter if you have a billion dollars worth of techno gadgets; physics will always come out on top. For example, airplanes are loaded with computers to aid pilots in operation and automatic fail-safe systems; yet there are still crashes. Why? Because those systems, conceptually similar to the systems in cars, are designed to work based on certain parameters and conditions; when those conditions (such as traction) are absent, then the parameters mean nothing, and those systems become useless. Think about it; what's the one thing that's keeping your car in a straight line? Traction, produced by tires. What's the one thing that's keeping airplanes afloat? Lift, produced by engines. When traction (or engine power) is not there, then those systems can't do anything. It's like cutting off one of my legs and asking me to stop falling over.

For you to say that a spin-out should've never happened just because those systems are on board, it's ignorant and uneducated.



EDIT -- This post does not mean that Mark's wife was at fault. Rather, just like I've been saying throughout this whole thread, I'm looking at a possible failure in the safety systems, and/or outside factor such as uneven pavement.

quattrodude

Too much driver bashing going on...

If it were me, I would take the car back ask for a new one! or refund.

Something like this should never of happened and anyone who is trying to blame this on a driver has the brains of a charcoal briquette. I see too many people here trying to blame the driver too much of the time!!!

Glad your wife is ok, esp considering what happened...I would be leary of THAT car all together. Try for a new one!!! I think you push hard enough..maybe mention going to the newspaper even and they will work to get you taken care of.

Best of luck what ever path you take!

(and I have braked HARD/semi hard and relaxed from 100+ many times and NEVER had any issues like this)

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Right, yeah. Only if it were that easy. Come on now. Let's be realistic.

Hybrid

Taking the car back to the dealer isn't going to work. The dealer isn't going to take a financial "bath" over something like this, and it's not their responsibility to do so. The dealer doesn't owe replacement cars to dissatisfied owners. Acura made the car. The dealer only sold it. Then, the warranty and various laws state what Acura's responsibility is, and Acura is correct stating that fixing the car under warranty is really their only obligation at this point. As far as Lemon Law, there are generally requirements such as the dealer (Acura, in effect) has to have 3 chances to fix the problem (and they also have to agree there IS a problem), or the car has to be out of service for 30 days in the first year due to significant problems. ("Significant'" is important because things like rattles don't count, even though people feel they should get new cars for that). Different states vary in requirements. A car owner can't determine on his own that he's going to return a car under the lemon laws and get a new car. Keeping a car at home without driving it doesn't count toward the 30 days, and not giving the dealer a chance to fix it also won't get anyone a new car under the lemon law. The correct processes have to be followed.

Please don't misunderstand - this is a tough situation, and I'm sorry it happened, and it's a real pain to resolve.

markdesign

I"m in fullerton, and i bought from Thomas acura.

How do i get in touch with the acura rep in this region?



~mark

markdesign

exactly what i been told 5 differrent times by different managers at two dealerships.



~mark

DesertSilverRsx

Which city on the 91 and going which way?

There are a lot of parts on teh 91 freeway where if youre in the fast lane the car will pull to the center because of road conditions. Now if your wife happened to be in the area when she slammed on the brakes, obviously the car will go left. Now your wife panicked and over corrected. Thats driver error. Has nothing to do with the car.

Have you ever gone 80mph and had to press the brake hard? You can feel the wheel going side to side a little. Not so much to completely change the direction of hte car but it is noticeable. Now factor in road conditions and pressing the brake harder. The car most likely did what it always did but this time a little more because of road conditions and your wife panicked and overcorrected

Cesci

To obtain a drivers license you must demonstrate your ability to operate a car safely. If using ABS really requires a special skill............then, yes, people should have to pass a skill-related course. But if that were the case.........there should law suits up the wazoo out there from people who experienced accidents because of the technical challenges of using ABS. Sorry, just don't buy it.

markdesign

91 East bound just before the 710 near the long beach blvd exit.

i wish it was driver error.. then i woudn't have to be dealing with this nightmare,.. and still be enjoying that feeling of owning a brand new car.



~mark

gsrthomas

That sucks. You bought a brand new car, paid over 30k for it, less then 1,000 miles and already having problems???

If I were you I would sell the car.. I personally was going to get the TL but got a Lexus instead. Glad I made the choice.. Never been to the dealer yet and planning on it being that way..

Some of these TL owners see spend more time seeing their service reps then seeing their family.. pretty sad.

Aegir

What Lexus did you get? I thought you were waiting for the IS350?

DesertSilverRsx

A lot of places on the 91 east of Valley View blvd in the fast lane have uneven roads after they did that stupid construction. Some spots itll be perfectly fine and can go straight with no steering adjustment then all of a sudden youll feel the car pull left and right. Have you driven on the same spot your wife braked at?

mickey3c

I think the point here is the person has lost confidence in the product and not his wife. Sure she could have been operating it in a way that might have caused the problem.. it appears that the car has had some problems with the brakes/abs/ etc. If this person is like me, the worst thing that ever happened with brakes was they they needed to be replaced at 38000 miles. A new car is suppose to run trouble free for a long time past the warranty and not for a week. Any major power train or safety system failure is a red flag to many people.

Sure it could be a simple defect and after it is replaced, there is no problem. But when a major system gets replaced, you wonder if there are any issues with the product to begin with that is in the design, etc...

markdesign

hey DesertSilverRsx

check the updates i have been posting..

the problem is most likely a faulty ABS module they replaced once.

its causing my rear left wheel to lock up during heavy braking.



~mark

dramsey

Well, you can repeat this mantra from your hospital bed, or perhaps from the spirit world, after you're injured or killed in an accident a more skilled driver might have managed to avoid.

I wasn't commenting on using ABS (although studies show that many people, surprised by the brake pedal pusaltions when ABS engages, don't maintain pressure in an emergency stop). I was saying that people should be trained in emergency maneuvering skills. Most people have NO IDEA what to do in a skid, or how to handle a tire blowout at highway speeds, or how their car handles at its limit.

Knowing these things makes you a better, safer, driver. Saying that it's "stupid" to know these things, and that there's no benefit to knowing them, makes (generic) you an idiot.

sweetride01

ABS stands for "absolute brainless stopping". One of the first times I used ABS was when I was driving our ODY, and I stomped the brake pedal as far as it would go at about 70mph. The vehicle slowed properly in a straight line. It has EBD (electronic brake distribution), which is like VSA but for braking only. VSA reduces accidents because it lets people with few driving skills avoid accidents. I unintentionally drifted round a corner in my Bimmer once, too much throttle, the end went out, and then when I did let off, the end hooked up with my wheel still cranked to the right. So, I fishtailed 3 times. Needless to say, I'm learning car control from my car which has no electronic master ('cept ABS).
The TL has VSA, so the average person who knows little about the technicality of vehicles and car control can drive it safely. While better driving tests should be required, it is clearly NOT Mark's wife's fault. The cars' electronic master has clearly been corrupted by Starwars or the likes. The car should have stopped straight, and if a problem occured, the VSA should have stopped any overcorrection.
Acura is at fault here. IMO a lawsuit might be justified, but as someone said, no harm has actually been done, so there's probably not too much to work with.

Sorry for not reading pages 2, 3, or 4. I probably missed something important, but I have to study for exams tomorrow.

fast-tl

Make that 3 of us who agree on future driver training. Glad she wasn't hurt, and as far as the "shoulda stopped in a straight line"....this is under ideal conditions, but no man-made vehicle is 100% consistent. You have to know how YOUR car reacts, not how the ideal test Acura TL would behave.

samkws

that's dangerous

our TL is heavy as hell and still lose control like that

there must be sth wrong...no way it would be like that

fast-tl

Good points Doc. She didn't "amost die" (as in 80% dead but not quite), she had a "near death" experience, in that it could've killed her but didn't. I think the thread title's a bit misleading, but again, I'm glad she's OK. I am of the opinion that many factors, including the car itself could cause pull during braking. It's not an exact science: were all tires at equal pressure? How was the brake fluid level? Was the road flat or crowned? Hopefully with those examples you'll see that it's not automatically "the car's fault." I've just now suggested to my wife that we practice some evasive driving in both our vehicles.

fast-tl

I think that's the chief point being forgotten here: VSA *helps* bur can't perform miracles. I can't believe the people who say the "sytem provides proecise control and makes the car do what you want it to." Uh, you mean regardless of road conditions and driver actions? That sounds like someone reading out of the brochure. The technology in these cars HELP prevent accidents. HELP prevent accidents, not PREVENTS accidents. I think Pure Adrenaline put it well: at some point those systems have to say: whoa! Cannot compute! Best of luck to ya!

Would you expect VSA and ABS to protect you from a handbrake turn? Just how capable do you believe the system to be? I don't think they've claimed it's infallible.

ediddy

You should take the car to south bay acura they are great in customer service.....ask for jon martin the service manager 310-539-3636

jhan1102

Sorry to hear what you are going through right now.

Here is my advice.

Call the Acura TLC program. Tell them that your car is dangerous to drive. Mechanical problems. Your car keeps on spinning out on the freeway. (You and your family almost died.)

Have them tow your car to the Acura dealer.

Ask TLC rep to place you in a rental car while the car is in the shop.




It is so funny to hear how your dealer in treating you. Acura of Glendale is one of the best in service. No loaner car in the house, they will get you in to Enterprise that same day. -.-