MTF Synthetic Manual Trans Fluid - 6MT
10-24-2005, 01:27 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MTF Synthetic Manual Trans Fluid - 6MT
I am a new 2005 TL 6MT owner (as of about 72 hrs. ago), and am experiencing the same issues regarding shifting
(especially into 3rd gear) that I have read about.
Many of you have used the GM # 12377916, and have "worried" about warranty issues - but raved about the
GM fluid performance. I've got a better solution.
This is what you need.....
AMSOIL 100% Synthetic Synchromesh Transmission Fluid is a direct replacement for both Honda Genuine MTF Fluid
and GM #12377916 (plus several others). The good news is its only $7/quart, and your can order as few
or as many as you need.
I'm a 20 year customer of Amsoil products, and am always amazed at their performance.
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx
Dave
(especially into 3rd gear) that I have read about.
Many of you have used the GM # 12377916, and have "worried" about warranty issues - but raved about the
GM fluid performance. I've got a better solution.
This is what you need.....
AMSOIL 100% Synthetic Synchromesh Transmission Fluid is a direct replacement for both Honda Genuine MTF Fluid
and GM #12377916 (plus several others). The good news is its only $7/quart, and your can order as few
or as many as you need.
I'm a 20 year customer of Amsoil products, and am always amazed at their performance.
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx
Dave
10-24-2005, 02:24 PM
#2
Race Director
Need a clarification here....
The only reference to replacing Honda MTF fluid that I could find was for manual transaxles:
"Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
Didn't find anything about it being a direct replacement for Honda MTF in manual transmissions.
The only reference to replacing Honda MTF fluid that I could find was for manual transaxles:
"Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
Didn't find anything about it being a direct replacement for Honda MTF in manual transmissions.
10-24-2005, 07:39 PM
#5
Moderator
Dave,
Glad to see that you're a new member of this forum. I trust that you're purely an Amsoil enthusiast and not a dealer, and if you are a dealer, I hope that you do not market your products here unless you've been approved as an official vendor.
As far as the Amsoil MTF goes, I've been recommending it for the same reasons you've stated. It has promised GMSFM like performance but has the Amsoil backing, or at least some type of warranty that the GMSFM does not have as it is not recommended for use in Honda MTF applications by its respective manufacturer.
One of the other moderators for this forum, BEETROOT, will be using the Amsoil MTF product in his 2002 S2000 that has been running on the factory MTF for 30K+ now. He'll also be using the Severe Gear 75w-90 gear lube in the rear differential. Hard to beat $27 shipped for 2 quarts of MTF and 1 quart 75w-90 Severe Gear so Amsoil definitely gets the price advantage this time, though rarely.
Mike
Glad to see that you're a new member of this forum. I trust that you're purely an Amsoil enthusiast and not a dealer, and if you are a dealer, I hope that you do not market your products here unless you've been approved as an official vendor.
As far as the Amsoil MTF goes, I've been recommending it for the same reasons you've stated. It has promised GMSFM like performance but has the Amsoil backing, or at least some type of warranty that the GMSFM does not have as it is not recommended for use in Honda MTF applications by its respective manufacturer.
One of the other moderators for this forum, BEETROOT, will be using the Amsoil MTF product in his 2002 S2000 that has been running on the factory MTF for 30K+ now. He'll also be using the Severe Gear 75w-90 gear lube in the rear differential. Hard to beat $27 shipped for 2 quarts of MTF and 1 quart 75w-90 Severe Gear so Amsoil definitely gets the price advantage this time, though rarely.
Mike
10-24-2005, 08:10 PM
#6
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the welcome to the forum!
I am most certainly NOT an Amsoil distributor. Just a motorhead who is VERY loyal to Amsoil
and Mobil1 products (and generally speaking - most all 100% synthetic auto products).
However, with that said....can I interest you in a set of the 2006 Encyclopedia Britanica?
(Baby needs new shoes)
I am most certainly NOT an Amsoil distributor. Just a motorhead who is VERY loyal to Amsoil
and Mobil1 products (and generally speaking - most all 100% synthetic auto products).
However, with that said....can I interest you in a set of the 2006 Encyclopedia Britanica?
(Baby needs new shoes)
10-24-2005, 08:32 PM
#7
Ryan Christopher
Warranty
Contacted my Acura service advisor today to make sure that it would not void the warranty on the car to change to the GM synthetic. He said that there is no problem with doing it, and at that I am going to have them do it. They have done this with other cars in the past, do to minor problems in the transmissions. So if you are worried about the warranty problem, just give them a buzz and ask them if it will be a problem. Its apparant that there is a problem with the oil that comes from the factory. I to am a fan of synthetics, and I have heard great things about the GM oil, so I am going to go with it. But the Amsoil is a great product and I would never say anything negative about it.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
Trending Topics
10-24-2005, 08:43 PM
#8
Moderator
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
Contacted my Acura service advisor today to make sure that it would not void the warranty on the car to change to the GM synthetic. He said that there is no problem with doing it, and at that I am going to have them do it. They have done this with other cars in the past, do to minor problems in the transmissions. So if you are worried about the warranty problem, just give them a buzz and ask them if it will be a problem. Its apparant that there is a problem with the oil that comes from the factory. I to am a fan of synthetics, and I have heard great things about the GM oil, so I am going to go with it. But the Amsoil is a great product and I would never say anything negative about it.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
He himself may not have an issue with it, but the mechanic may know better and do one of two things:
1) Not do it.
2) Change it, but log it down in your vehicle's history, so that in the event of a Manual Transmission problem, they'll have records of you changing to a non-approved fluid. If they did this, you have no escape hatch at all.
Mike
10-25-2005, 05:14 AM
#10
HMFIC
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
Age: 54
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ImaTLguy
Its my understanding that the GM #12377916 is only a partial synthetic fluid. No??
You Amsoil guys are funny, such brand loyalty. I have never had an oil related issue with any vehicle. I usually buy whatever is on sale.
I used the GMSM-FM with great results on numerous recommendations. That's good enough for me.
Don
10-25-2005, 01:34 PM
#11
But does it meet Honda's specs?
I went to the Amsoil website and read the blurb on this stuff:
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
I've ventured into using RedLine MTL, with mixed results, and will be trying the GM-SFM when I change tranny oil next spring. But in both cases, I'm doing it based on feedback from others who've actually tried these over long periods.
RedLine MTL made the tranny shift like silk, at first. But over time the stuff failed to retain that feel and is now about where the Honda MTL was at.
I'm not saying the Amsoil won't prove out, but I am saying that it will take more than a couple of months testing by a couple of people to get a true sense of how this stuff performs in actual use over a long period.
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
I've ventured into using RedLine MTL, with mixed results, and will be trying the GM-SFM when I change tranny oil next spring. But in both cases, I'm doing it based on feedback from others who've actually tried these over long periods.
RedLine MTL made the tranny shift like silk, at first. But over time the stuff failed to retain that feel and is now about where the Honda MTL was at.
I'm not saying the Amsoil won't prove out, but I am saying that it will take more than a couple of months testing by a couple of people to get a true sense of how this stuff performs in actual use over a long period.
10-25-2005, 04:30 PM
#12
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mass
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
Your service advisor is incorrect, I'm sorry to say.
He himself may not have an issue with it, but the mechanic may know better and do one of two things:
1) Not do it.
2) Change it, but log it down in your vehicle's history, so that in the event of a Manual Transmission problem, they'll have records of you changing to a non-approved fluid. If they did this, you have no escape hatch at all.
Mike
He himself may not have an issue with it, but the mechanic may know better and do one of two things:
1) Not do it.
2) Change it, but log it down in your vehicle's history, so that in the event of a Manual Transmission problem, they'll have records of you changing to a non-approved fluid. If they did this, you have no escape hatch at all.
Mike
-LOD
10-25-2005, 06:00 PM
#13
Moderator
Originally Posted by legionofdoom
Not taking into account the mechanic, what if he had the service advisor note on his record that he said that it wouldn't void the warranty? Would he be able to fall back on that since it's not his fault he was given inaccurate information if it ever came to that? I'd always ask for something in writing when dealing with anything like this...
-LOD
-LOD
Mike
10-25-2005, 06:07 PM
#14
Moderator
Originally Posted by kosh2258
I went to the Amsoil website and read the blurb on this stuff:
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
Nothing meets Honda specs in Honda's eyes. Every product marketed to replace Honda MTF (Redline MTL, Amsoil MTF, Specialty Formulations MTL-P) has been reverse-engineered by the manufacturer as Honda will not release the specs.
Mike
10-25-2005, 07:35 PM
#15
Race Director
Originally Posted by kosh2258
I went to the Amsoil website and read the blurb on this stuff:
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
.....
It simply says: "Replaces Honda Genuine MTF Fluid for manual transaxles"
The only manufacturer's specs they claim to meet are: "It meets GM specifications 9985648, 9986105 and 9985535 and Chrysler MS-9224 and MS-9417."
I'm sure it can replace the Honda MTL if it's of a comparable viscosity, but does it meet Honda's specs? They don't claim to, their product guarantee not withstanding. "Guarantees" are only of value if they can be invoked by proving the product was undeniably the cause of the failure.
.....
10-26-2005, 05:40 AM
#17
HMFIC
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Columbia, MD
Age: 54
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bulacura
hey does this stuff improve the clutch also? my clutch is squeaking , but only if i'm on a gear
10-26-2005, 06:44 AM
#18
Meaningless...
Yeah it does, you need to click on the "Amsoil recommendations" link and it will take you to a page that says it's for all Honda Manual transmissions....
Amsoil's MTF does the meet the specs of Honda MTF; not all fluids of the same viscosity will work. If you are still uncertain, e-mail Amsoil Tech Services to get the warranty in writing.
That sort of "warranty" and $.05 gets you a nickel. The only way Amsoil would be on the hook to honor their guarantee, warranty, or whatever you want to call it, is if unrefutable proof of cause can be established. Otherwise, and they can say sorry, wasn't our product that caused the failure.
The same is true of Honda. Not using their MTL, even if the alternative is better, is grounds for them to turn down a claim. Will they in practice? Nobody will know that until it actually happens to test this in practice.
Nothing meets Honda specs in Honda's eyes. Every product marketed to replace Honda MTF (Redline MTL, Amsoil MTF, Specialty Formulations MTL-P) has been reverse-engineered by the manufacturer as Honda will not release the specs.
Yeah, a competitor could do a chemical analysis to determine what Honda MTL is made of, but, again, so what? Honda doesn't give out the spec so they simply say the competitors claim is invalid since they had no access to the specification from which to formulate a competing product.
Again, and to repeat, I'm not saying Amsoil won't work just fine. But there's no field experience to prove that statement either way. There is with GM-SFM and RedLine products, and probably a few others not mentioned here. If there are folks out there willing to give the Amsoil a try and report back, hey, more power to them. And I await their findings.
Just like using GM-SFM, RedLine, or other alternatives to Honda's MTL the user assumes the risk. I do fall in this catagory, I'm just not willing to fall too far into it.
10-26-2005, 07:32 PM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If your car is new, you need to break-in the tranny just as carefully as you would the engine. Careful shifting with a light finger touch for the few few thousand miles will wear your syncros in very nicely. I have had experiences treating cars both ways and gentle is better at 1st.
I would not be so quick to change the tranny oil on a brand new car. That being said, the GM stuff does shift better when the car is cold (<50 degF) in my experience, but I did not change until 28K miles (about a month ago).
I would not be so quick to change the tranny oil on a brand new car. That being said, the GM stuff does shift better when the car is cold (<50 degF) in my experience, but I did not change until 28K miles (about a month ago).
10-26-2005, 08:40 PM
#20
Safety Car
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok there has been a huge influx of manual tranny fluid change lately. since you just got your car it might not be a problem. i have a 6mt and it was notchy at first before but got a lot smoother as i put more miles on it. let the car break in a bit before you go swapping out the fluid.
10-27-2005, 03:15 PM
#21
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just installed the Amsoil this morning.
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
10-27-2005, 05:08 PM
#22
Moderator
Originally Posted by ImaTLguy
Just installed the Amsoil this morning.
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
Mike
10-28-2005, 07:55 AM
#23
I changed my 6mt fluid at approx. 5000 miles with GMFM fluid. The difference in shifting was immediate and very noticable. I'm not worried about the warranty but if something should go bad down the road, I'll just drain the fluid, replace it with Honda MTF then file a warranty claim. There is NO way they would ever know I've been running the GMFM fluid after I replace the fluid. Just DO IT...you won't be sorry. The Honda MTF is crap.
10-28-2005, 08:06 AM
#24
Instructor
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Black_05_TL_6SP
Contacted my Acura service advisor today to make sure that it would not void the warranty on the car to change to the GM synthetic. He said that there is no problem with doing it, and at that I am going to have them do it. They have done this with other cars in the past, do to minor problems in the transmissions. So if you are worried about the warranty problem, just give them a buzz and ask them if it will be a problem. Its apparant that there is a problem with the oil that comes from the factory. I to am a fan of synthetics, and I have heard great things about the GM oil, so I am going to go with it. But the Amsoil is a great product and I would never say anything negative about it.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
Before changing any of the fluids from something other than the Honda oil, contact your service team at Acura to make sure it is OK! They are very willing to work with you, and will let you know of any problems. The reason I went with the Acura is do to the service I received when I owned my Honda. They never did me wrong, and would refer them to anyone I knew.
03-09-2006, 08:13 PM
#25
Not a Blowhole
Amsoil's "Warranty" looks good on paper, but I have several times posted that I have yet to find a case where they paid out. I asked them several times to cite a case, or refer me to someone who could show me a "chain of evidence", other than the usual "dealer anecdotes".
I like many of their products, and have posted so. I was a dealer, a Preferred Cusotmer, and the like.
1) However, no fluid is "universal" - it is a serious of compromises and choices, like All-Season tires. Many times it works out, and I am sure Amosil MTF is good.
2) Amsoil is a bit thinner in vis than Specialty Formulations recommended Honda HG MTL replacement. GMS-FM is a bit thinner still than Honda HG. Not convinced it makes a whole helluva diff. The Amsoil and GMS-FM are amber, like Honda's OEM fluid. SF is lavender (why, oh why?).
3) GMS-FM is semi-syn. I listed its formulation in one of the RR Journals. But more importantly, who cares? "Full" synoil does not guarantee a better overall product, esp in tranny lubes, except when it comes to service intervals. Example? The best diff fluid I have found for the S2000 has no synthetic fluid in it whatsoever - it is a GII base actually, LE-607 - but it is overall the best fluid I have found for the S2K diff, and many, many people have been won over by it since I originally "discovered" it and did the lab workups.
4) Someone was going to send me 3 quarts of Amsoil's MTF to try - I am ready to go, as the weather is turning warm here. I am taking out "Khan" for the 1st time in 6 weeks Satiurday. My warranty is nearly up (3 years) and I have all of 2400 miles on the clock.
I like many of their products, and have posted so. I was a dealer, a Preferred Cusotmer, and the like.
1) However, no fluid is "universal" - it is a serious of compromises and choices, like All-Season tires. Many times it works out, and I am sure Amosil MTF is good.
2) Amsoil is a bit thinner in vis than Specialty Formulations recommended Honda HG MTL replacement. GMS-FM is a bit thinner still than Honda HG. Not convinced it makes a whole helluva diff. The Amsoil and GMS-FM are amber, like Honda's OEM fluid. SF is lavender (why, oh why?).
3) GMS-FM is semi-syn. I listed its formulation in one of the RR Journals. But more importantly, who cares? "Full" synoil does not guarantee a better overall product, esp in tranny lubes, except when it comes to service intervals. Example? The best diff fluid I have found for the S2000 has no synthetic fluid in it whatsoever - it is a GII base actually, LE-607 - but it is overall the best fluid I have found for the S2K diff, and many, many people have been won over by it since I originally "discovered" it and did the lab workups.
4) Someone was going to send me 3 quarts of Amsoil's MTF to try - I am ready to go, as the weather is turning warm here. I am taking out "Khan" for the 1st time in 6 weeks Satiurday. My warranty is nearly up (3 years) and I have all of 2400 miles on the clock.
03-09-2006, 08:30 PM
#26
Not a Blowhole
contd....
5) There has been speculation that Honda uses "markers" in their fluids that allow them to see if OEM fluid is used. Personally, I have never heard of them doing it, but agree that the technology to do so is child's play to effect.
6) Regarding "specs" for lubes. Recall, GM has one for the Corvette synlube, Ford has a spec for 5w20, etc. But every lube varies a bit just from mfr to mfr (for 5w20 let's say), and within the SAME mfr's product, their QC is often so poor that the product can vary by 10-20% from the reference baseline! So worrying a lot about Honda's spec seems a bit of overkill - I think if something is in the same ballpark, you are going to be OK.
7) The worry-warts among you are better off sticking to whatever "miracle in a bottle" Honda says. But Honda sure makes a lot of $$$ on their Fear Factor prose in the Owner's Manuals - BMW NA is even worse. They practically suggest they will take your first-born if you so much as check the oil level yourself, or go 1 RPM over redline. (Another reason I would not buy another Bimmer).
8) Sean (B4 he sold his Blackura TL) once said somethihng like this after we swapped out his HG MTF for GMS-FM: "with shift quality like, this, I wouldn't minding replacing the tranny if Honda dicked me". That may be extreme, but the point is well taken. If I miss a shift 1) and spin the engine, or lose a few tenths (2) per lap at VIR because of gear shift uncertainty, that can be (1) expensive, and (2) embarassing.
9) I will likely someday do Amsoil MTF in my S2K - but for now, I stick by the GMS-FM rec. As someone posted, it is batting 1.000.
************************************************** ***********
I have no allegiance, ties, financial interest, etc to ANY manufacturer. My "oil lab" is stocked with many, many products. And I use many different lubes in my small, high-end car consulting service. I know which Red Line products work well in BMW trannies, and which do not, for example.
I pay for the products I use myself - and use what i recommend. Dealers, mfr's, shops etc may post here and have all sorts of conflicts of interest that occasionally jump off the page at y'all. I am not Oil God - but what is posted is honestly offered, and gratuitous.
Peace Out!
RR.
5) There has been speculation that Honda uses "markers" in their fluids that allow them to see if OEM fluid is used. Personally, I have never heard of them doing it, but agree that the technology to do so is child's play to effect.
6) Regarding "specs" for lubes. Recall, GM has one for the Corvette synlube, Ford has a spec for 5w20, etc. But every lube varies a bit just from mfr to mfr (for 5w20 let's say), and within the SAME mfr's product, their QC is often so poor that the product can vary by 10-20% from the reference baseline! So worrying a lot about Honda's spec seems a bit of overkill - I think if something is in the same ballpark, you are going to be OK.
7) The worry-warts among you are better off sticking to whatever "miracle in a bottle" Honda says. But Honda sure makes a lot of $$$ on their Fear Factor prose in the Owner's Manuals - BMW NA is even worse. They practically suggest they will take your first-born if you so much as check the oil level yourself, or go 1 RPM over redline. (Another reason I would not buy another Bimmer).
8) Sean (B4 he sold his Blackura TL) once said somethihng like this after we swapped out his HG MTF for GMS-FM: "with shift quality like, this, I wouldn't minding replacing the tranny if Honda dicked me". That may be extreme, but the point is well taken. If I miss a shift 1) and spin the engine, or lose a few tenths (2) per lap at VIR because of gear shift uncertainty, that can be (1) expensive, and (2) embarassing.
9) I will likely someday do Amsoil MTF in my S2K - but for now, I stick by the GMS-FM rec. As someone posted, it is batting 1.000.
************************************************** ***********
I have no allegiance, ties, financial interest, etc to ANY manufacturer. My "oil lab" is stocked with many, many products. And I use many different lubes in my small, high-end car consulting service. I know which Red Line products work well in BMW trannies, and which do not, for example.
I pay for the products I use myself - and use what i recommend. Dealers, mfr's, shops etc may post here and have all sorts of conflicts of interest that occasionally jump off the page at y'all. I am not Oil God - but what is posted is honestly offered, and gratuitous.
Peace Out!
RR.
03-11-2006, 11:10 PM
#27
Moderator
Amsoil's "Warranty" looks good on paper, but I have several times posted that I have yet to find a case where they paid out. I asked them several times to cite a case, or refer me to someone who could show me a "chain of evidence", other than the usual "dealer anecdotes".
Not that I'm a fan of Amsoil...
However, no fluid is "universal" - it is a serious of compromises and choices, like All-Season tires. Many times it works out, and I am sure Amosil MTF is good.
In all honesty, MTs are a lot different than ATs. For MTs...there aren't really "specific" friction modifiers you need for a Honda, Nissan, etc as there are for ATs.
But then again, as I've learned, many of these different fluid specs (at least in ATs) are mostly friction modifiers needed for the particular application, because aside from the friction modifiers, most fluids are quite similar viscosity wise.
There has been speculation that Honda uses "markers" in their fluids that allow them to see if OEM fluid is used. Personally, I have never heard of them doing it, but agree that the technology to do so is child's play to effect.
But every lube varies a bit just from mfr to mfr (for 5w20 let's say), and within the SAME mfr's product, their QC is often so poor that the product can vary by 10-20% from the reference baseline!
I think if something is in the same ballpark, you are going to be OK.
Just don't run 5W20 in a M3 spec-ed for 10W60
have no allegiance, ties, financial interest, etc to ANY manufacturer. My "oil lab" is stocked with many, many products.
I am not Oil God - but what is posted is honestly offered, and gratuitous
03-12-2006, 03:56 PM
#28
Man of God.....
Originally Posted by ImaTLguy
Just installed the Amsoil this morning.
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
Only have 100 miles on the new fluid, but I the shift into 3rd is firm, and hasn't "missed" once.
I'll submit a longer term update when I acculate more miles.
Dave
03-12-2006, 05:16 PM
#29
Ryan Christopher
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
Your service advisor is incorrect, I'm sorry to say.
He himself may not have an issue with it, but the mechanic may know better and do one of two things:
1) Not do it.
2) Change it, but log it down in your vehicle's history, so that in the event of a Manual Transmission problem, they'll have records of you changing to a non-approved fluid. If they did this, you have no escape hatch at all.
Mike
He himself may not have an issue with it, but the mechanic may know better and do one of two things:
1) Not do it.
2) Change it, but log it down in your vehicle's history, so that in the event of a Manual Transmission problem, they'll have records of you changing to a non-approved fluid. If they did this, you have no escape hatch at all.
Mike
Jason
03-12-2006, 06:28 PM
#31
Moderator
Bert,
As a Honda product specialist, I was hoping that you were more careful with your usage of terms.
"Meeting" the specification is not good enough in the eyes of the OEM. Redline and Amsoil both have products that "meet" Honda MTF specifications.
Yet, the only "approved" lubricant for Honda manual transmissions is the Genuine Honda MTF.
This is because the Honda MTF contains a proprietary formula.
All of the aftermarket products are reverse-engineered...they come "close" and may be "very close," but they are not the exact product.
As a Honda product specialist, I was hoping that you were more careful with your usage of terms.
"Meeting" the specification is not good enough in the eyes of the OEM. Redline and Amsoil both have products that "meet" Honda MTF specifications.
Yet, the only "approved" lubricant for Honda manual transmissions is the Genuine Honda MTF.
This is because the Honda MTF contains a proprietary formula.
All of the aftermarket products are reverse-engineered...they come "close" and may be "very close," but they are not the exact product.
03-13-2006, 08:26 AM
#32
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Spiritman
OK, Mr. Tl Guy. This is the synth I was (am) going to use in my 06 6speed. I have used it before. And never had any problems. Please, after you get some miles on it - let us know! I only have like 700m on my car so I'll be a waiting......
Got over 5,000 miles on the Amsoil fluid, and ALL the problems associated with the OE fill are corrected (mainly the shift into 3rd).
At only $7/qt., not sure why anyone would spend twice that on the semi-synthethic GM stuff. "But to each his own", I guess.
03-13-2006, 08:52 AM
#33
AZ Community Team
I think the key word in this thread is specification.
I've never seen a written "specification" for any Honda OEM spec fluid other than motor oil (which they use the SAE standards which are easily obtainable).
Unless you have a detailed spec, all a aftermarket company can do is reverse engineer the product which may/may not produce a good product. This is not to say that a aftermarket product is/is not better than the Honda products.
I've never seen a written "specification" for any Honda OEM spec fluid other than motor oil (which they use the SAE standards which are easily obtainable).
Unless you have a detailed spec, all a aftermarket company can do is reverse engineer the product which may/may not produce a good product. This is not to say that a aftermarket product is/is not better than the Honda products.
Originally Posted by Michael Wan
Bert,
As a Honda product specialist, I was hoping that you were more careful with your usage of terms.
"Meeting" the specification is not good enough in the eyes of the OEM. Redline and Amsoil both have products that "meet" Honda MTF specifications.
Yet, the only "approved" lubricant for Honda manual transmissions is the Genuine Honda MTF.
This is because the Honda MTF contains a proprietary formula.
All of the aftermarket products are reverse-engineered...they come "close" and may be "very close," but they are not the exact product.
As a Honda product specialist, I was hoping that you were more careful with your usage of terms.
"Meeting" the specification is not good enough in the eyes of the OEM. Redline and Amsoil both have products that "meet" Honda MTF specifications.
Yet, the only "approved" lubricant for Honda manual transmissions is the Genuine Honda MTF.
This is because the Honda MTF contains a proprietary formula.
All of the aftermarket products are reverse-engineered...they come "close" and may be "very close," but they are not the exact product.
03-13-2006, 11:19 AM
#34
Head a da Family
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New Friggin Jerzy
Age: 69
Posts: 5,505
Received 561 Likes
on
393 Posts
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
I think the key word in this thread is specification.
I've never seen a written "specification" for any Honda OEM spec fluid other than motor oil (which they use the SAE standards which are easily obtainable).
Unless you have a detailed spec, all a aftermarket company can do is reverse engineer the product which may/may not produce a good product. This is not to say that a aftermarket product is/is not better than the Honda products.
I've never seen a written "specification" for any Honda OEM spec fluid other than motor oil (which they use the SAE standards which are easily obtainable).
Unless you have a detailed spec, all a aftermarket company can do is reverse engineer the product which may/may not produce a good product. This is not to say that a aftermarket product is/is not better than the Honda products.
03-13-2006, 06:58 PM
#35
Moderator
Every OEM requires either an API specification, generic specification (i.e. “Power Steering fluid”), or their OEM specification for every one of their components.
The licensing process works as follows:
If an OEM such as Honda wants to develop a special fluid for one of their components, the OEM, additive pack company (i.e. Afton, Lubrizol, Infinieum, etc), and the blender (i.e. ExxonMobil, Shell, etc) will work together to produce a finished product that’ll work in the intended application. The OEM will work closely with the additive pack manufacturer to produce an additive pack that’ll provide the necessary anti-wear protection and friction modification for the fluid. The additive pack manufacturer will then suggest a possible base oil mix to the blender, who will then blend the final product.
The blender is not required to use a specific base oil mix. The additive pack manufacturer will of course suggest a possible mix for the fluid to meet the specifications, but what the blender ultimately uses is up to them. However, whatever they decide to use, the fluid must still be capable of meeting the performance tests for that particular fluid specification.
Upon completion of the blending, since the original “three” (OEM, add pack company, and blender) were working together to develop this fluid, the blender’s final product will be put through OEM tests to verify its performance and become “licensed” for factory and service fill in that particular application.
Here’s where it gets tricky. When the OEM and the additive pack company work together to develop the additive package, they can choose not to allow licensing of the product. Of course, the company that originally developed the additive pack, and the company that blended the product you buy at the dealer, will have the licensed product as they were the original developers of the product. But, the OEM can choose not to allow the additive manufacturer they originally worked with, to sell the additive pack “recipe” to other additive package manufacturers so other blenders can buy the additive pack and blend a similar fluid. Thus, the only licensed product would be the product you buy under the automaker’s brand name, blended with an additive pack the company they worked with originally developed, and their designated blender.
However, provided that it doesn’t violate their license agreement, the additive package manufacturer or other additive pack manufacturers may produce a similar additive pack that will work in the application but of course, it cannot be certified or tested by the OEM to verify performance, as they will not license their product. This is how Amsoil, Valvoline, and Pennzoil obtain their additive packages for these various “proprietary” OEM specifications.
Now, Honda Power steering fluid is a bit different that the generic power steering fluid due to its higher level of anti-wear additives and the slightly higher viscosity.
The licensing process works as follows:
If an OEM such as Honda wants to develop a special fluid for one of their components, the OEM, additive pack company (i.e. Afton, Lubrizol, Infinieum, etc), and the blender (i.e. ExxonMobil, Shell, etc) will work together to produce a finished product that’ll work in the intended application. The OEM will work closely with the additive pack manufacturer to produce an additive pack that’ll provide the necessary anti-wear protection and friction modification for the fluid. The additive pack manufacturer will then suggest a possible base oil mix to the blender, who will then blend the final product.
The blender is not required to use a specific base oil mix. The additive pack manufacturer will of course suggest a possible mix for the fluid to meet the specifications, but what the blender ultimately uses is up to them. However, whatever they decide to use, the fluid must still be capable of meeting the performance tests for that particular fluid specification.
Upon completion of the blending, since the original “three” (OEM, add pack company, and blender) were working together to develop this fluid, the blender’s final product will be put through OEM tests to verify its performance and become “licensed” for factory and service fill in that particular application.
Here’s where it gets tricky. When the OEM and the additive pack company work together to develop the additive package, they can choose not to allow licensing of the product. Of course, the company that originally developed the additive pack, and the company that blended the product you buy at the dealer, will have the licensed product as they were the original developers of the product. But, the OEM can choose not to allow the additive manufacturer they originally worked with, to sell the additive pack “recipe” to other additive package manufacturers so other blenders can buy the additive pack and blend a similar fluid. Thus, the only licensed product would be the product you buy under the automaker’s brand name, blended with an additive pack the company they worked with originally developed, and their designated blender.
However, provided that it doesn’t violate their license agreement, the additive package manufacturer or other additive pack manufacturers may produce a similar additive pack that will work in the application but of course, it cannot be certified or tested by the OEM to verify performance, as they will not license their product. This is how Amsoil, Valvoline, and Pennzoil obtain their additive packages for these various “proprietary” OEM specifications.
Now, Honda Power steering fluid is a bit different that the generic power steering fluid due to its higher level of anti-wear additives and the slightly higher viscosity.
03-13-2006, 07:29 PM
#36
One on the right for me
Originally Posted by ImaTLguy
Got over 5,000 miles on the Amsoil fluid, and ALL the problems associated with the OE fill are corrected (mainly the shift into 3rd).
At only $7/qt., not sure why anyone would spend twice that on the semi-synthethic GM stuff. "But to each his own", I guess.
At only $7/qt., not sure why anyone would spend twice that on the semi-synthethic GM stuff. "But to each his own", I guess.
GM fluid is 10 bucks qt. not too much of a difference in price
09-22-2006, 06:51 AM
#37
Intermediate
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Age: 79
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone else tried AMSOIL MTF fluid ? I don't have a warranty concern and am debating between this and the new Acura MTF fluid..which would you do?
09-22-2006, 06:07 PM
#39
Advanced
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bergen County, NJ
Age: 70
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jbx35
Having Amsoil MTF installed tomorrow. Will let you know.
09-22-2006, 07:48 PM
#40
2005TL(6MT)
Originally Posted by royco
I've plans to install Amsoil tomorrow too but the interesting thing is that I have an 06 MT about 3 months old but I'm not having NO problems with the shifting at all. I'm only changing the oil from the discussions and also because of the approaching cold weather. We'll compare notes.
You may be one of the lucky ones! The change won't hurt though.