y2jdmbfan

Guys,

I am leaning towards purchasing an 04/05 TL w/ NAVI, probably an automatic because I do not know how to drive stick. I live in the Southwest Suburbs of Chicago where the traffic is really realy bad. I drive the I294 Tolllway every day to and from work, about 35 miles each direction, which is bumper to bumper 15-40 MPH these days. Is it even worth trying to learn manual when I will be in this type of traffice day in and day out? I drove a TL and a G35 Coupe, both automatic, and I liked the way the G35 drove, more sporty obviously, than the TL. But the TL was better in every other caregory. I am coming from an 04 A4 GTO, which is no longer with us. So just some thoughts about how hard manual is, I'm 23 and never once have driven it, in regards to this type of daily driving.


Thanks,

Y2J

PG2G

I live in Los Angeles and I plan to learn as well. I want to learn mainly because there is a good chance that I'll want some sort of sports car eventually (can't wait to see that new GTR). Also, I think its something just good to know. I'm probably gonna head to one of the local driving schools and have them teach me. All of my friend's cars are a bit too nice (WRX, 300i).

PoochaKannInc

I learned how to drive stick on my TL. It is hard to do, esp on a new car (that you are paying for and hate to kill the clutch). My reasons for buying a stick:
1. I figured this was a car that I would own for at least six years, and if I didn't buy a stick now, I never would.
2. I love to drive, and wanted to have control over the car.

My suggestions:
1. Learn before you buy the car (a friend, a rental, a driving school, etc.)
2. If you can't then have someone teach you in your new car. If you search in this forum you will find great pointers on how to drive the TL 6MT. There are good posts by SouthernBoy, Road Rage, etc. etc. It has invaluable information. For more information, on advanced shifting go here:
http://www.318ti.org/notebook/shifting/
3. Practice, practice, practice. I have never put so much effort into learning something (except when taking my CPA exam). By far the hardest thing I have encountered is to downshift imperceptibly. But it will come together. I still have to concentrate on downshifting two gears, but I am confident I will do it smoothly.
4. Lastly, know that you cannot be a prodigy at this the first time around. Buying a new car without knowing how to operate the tranny, limits the life of your clutch (and maybe your synchros, depending on how good/bad you are).

Knowing all this, I still bought it because I love to drive, and to me learning to drive a MT car properly was essential. I bought it and I love it even in NY traffic.

Pug

It will take you 1 day to learn how to drive a MT, and a lifetime to master it (I'm still working on that myself).

As far is traffic is concerned, I spend a fair amount of time in NJ Turnpike backwash. The short-throw action of the 6MT makes it easy. I enjoy having to shift from 3 to 4 to 3, etc. You will too !

te3point5

Dude, I WISH the CPA exam was as easy as driving stick

PoochaKannInc

Tell me about it. The only good thing about it is that, once it's over, IT'S OVER. Thank God for that...

Sorry bout the thread hijack.

cM3go

i never owned a stick car before my TL, after driving both, i'm glad i got the 6mt, having control over the car is such a good feeling, i'm just like poocha, i love to drive. Traffic or no traffic

willz822

I drive not because I have to, I drive because I love the enjoyment of it all. Even if I knew I would be stuck in traffic I would still drive. Been driving a stick for over 15 years. All of my cars have been manuals. There's no better feeling then downshifting to 4th and feeling that engine wind all the way to redline. If you really want to learn, this is the time, as the TL's engine loves to be revved. If you really set your mind to it, you will get the hang of it in no time. Then you will be glad you got the MT. But like Pug mentioned, it takes a lifetime to master. Practice Practice Practice. No matter what your decision, the TL will make you very happy.

6MT Anthracite/Ebony

SONNYS99TL

I have an AT and have never owned a MT car, but I do know how to drive them. I drive my friends S4 just about everytime we go out and he gets wasted. I recommend MT's...just makes driving a lot more enjoyable.

JoganJani

Learn MT at driving swchool and then buy 6MT. You'll learn how to avoid expensive errors in couple of lessons. You do not know what you're missing. I drive 6MT in Bay Area traffic and do not feel it's bad for trafiic. If you like to drive and you can get pleasure out of driving, you aught to have a stick no matter what kind of traffic you drive in.

Salut

My suggestion would be like most here, learn first... Then buy a manual tranny if you want... (Learn wherever, however, from whomever -- but learn for sure)

They are also correct about practice practice practice...

As far as driving in traffic or not... I understand why people who know how to drive sticks and live in major (metropoli)... choose to drive an AT when a majority of their drive time involves sitting in traffic... but I for one will drive stick 'til the day I die... (not joking) well ok... maybe until I can't depress the clutch pedal anymore... hehe

As an example I mentioned in a prior post I had a 1995 Chevy Pickup (C1500 Ext Cab Short bed) and even that I special ordered with the 5.7l V8 5MT...

I have been driving manuals my entire life (I learned back in France decades ago - about 12 year old)

Here come the Flames...
To me those who do notKNOW how to drive a stick... Do not know how to drive a car... Because in an AT the tranny is telling you what gear your going to be in (put in D and it picks) therefore directly affecting how you get to where you have to go, all you do is steer...
Bear with me...
Whereas when I'm driving a MT doing 65 MPH... (ok... 95MPH) on the freeway and I decide to drop it from 5th or 6th gear into 1st... and subsequently fry my clutch, possibly blow my motor, and for sure fuck up my first gear - if not the entire tranny... I DID THAT!!!

But all kidding aside only with a MT will you have total control of your vehicle. Which IMHO makes you a better driver because you get less complacent, distracted etc... than you would in a AT... (that is not to say that some of us MT guys don't fondle our girlfriends in the passenger seat while she is shifting... - yeah you guys didn't think I read that post in the ramblings section huh)


As this gentleman mentions above...

That is a great example of why everyone should know HOW to drive a stick... My apologies for being a fatalist... but if one of your family members was dying and the only option available was you and a manual transmission car with a 30 mile drive to the closest hospital - you (rather your family member) would be fucked because you never learned how to drive a stick...

I know extreme example... but I believe you all know what I'm trying to get at...

Thank you for your time gents...
Have a good day...

Salut

DARK6mt

iTrader: (1)

Hey dude,

My TL was my first manual....it takes a little more effort to precisely drive it. I drove my friend's RSX, my brother's WRX and Accord....they all are some how a little more easier than the TL. But the smoothness then comes together when you do it right is a pure joy.

For me I find myself having fun going to groceries, going to work and all those chores you are responsible for. Remember to just go real slow at your first time....then slowly learn the clutch and you might mess up a little in the beginning, but you will get it and enjoy it.

Good luck man.

James

AlexAmescua

The question sums up to: Do you like sporty driving, having total control over your car, or do you prefer comfort.
If the answer is sporty driving, I would advise you to learn first . So you won't have to risk ruining your car (not only the clutch, I had a friend that broke the engine's support, 'cause he kept reving to much and stalling the car ).
I have dorve manual for 10 years now, the good part is that you can master your car on empty streets. But when you drive enough of bumper to bumper, you end up wishing for an automatic. I have tested many cars with the autostick (tiptronick) transmission (as equiped on the TL) and the 'manual' shifting mode does not give you as much control as a true manual. I would wish this got better as soon as possible.
Anyway, how do you like to drive???

Good Luck!

wolftag

When it comes to a $30K+ decision, my opinion is "If you have to ask, get the automatic".

The only way you're gonna find out if you prefer a stick is to spend a few weeks or months living with one.

On one hand, you know you don't mind driving an automatic. On the other hand, you could potentially hate driving the stick in traffic.

I also agree with what others have said -- it really doesn't take much to learn to drive a stick, but it takes a while to master it.

tigetech

y2jdmbfan IMO get the manual... You wont regret it. While you might at first aka(the learning curve) this car shifts soo flawlessly that you'll never want to drive auto again.. besides you have way more control and can really harness the power.

6mtV6

I learned to drive a stick on my brand new 03 Accord Coupe 6mt. Before I picked up the car from the dealer, I never drove a stick before. I went to a lot of websites and read about how to drive a stick. I don't even know how I drove the car home from the dealer. Must of stalled at every stop. Luckily the dealer was about 5min from my house. It took me a day to learn how to drive a stick. It wasn't smooth driving but at least I got the car moving. Second day I went to work and was in traffic by the GWB.
Now i'm just trying to master it.

I than traded the Accord Coupe for a 5at 04TL. My gf needed to drive also. She never drove the car and I was missing the manual so I traded the 5at for a 6mt TL. After driving a manual than going back to a automatic makes driving not fun anymore.

mobilezen

It took me about 2 hours over 2 Saturdays to learn. First time I drove stick was at night and I just wasn't feeling it so I gave up after 10 minutes. Then the following Friday night, I had this dream I was driving an IS300 5spd so Saturday comes around and I wake up my roomie and tell him that I can drive his car now and he didn't believe me. I went out to his car and backed it out, then proceeded to drive like I had been driving forever. He asked me if I practiced on someone else's car and I said nope, it was just the dream I had. Right now I'm at the deciding position for my next car and the TL is at the top of my list so we'll have to see when I go test drive and who gives me the best deal.

xlilbluux

i say it wouldnt matter if your in traffic with an auto or manual, just as long as your in traffic with a TL and not a g35 :P.

y2jdmbfan

I've always wanted to drive a stick, I hear great things, I'm 23 and plan on keeping the car for 4 years or so, which puts me at like 27-28 and maybe looking to get married, don't know if I'd have the chance to get another stick if I don't do it now. I mean if it really sucks, I suppose I could trade it in for a 5AT. I should have just gotten the GTO which got totalled 2.5 weeks ago in manual and then I would know what to get now. But hindsight is 20/20. The one other problem /question is, can you still use cruise control with a manual? It might be a dumb question, but I don't know since I've never driven it. Also, I like to mess with the stereo and stuff occassionally when I drive , would I end up blowing a tranny/clutch doing this??? LOL....Thanks for all your input guys, keep it coming, it's really helping me sort things out.

Thanks,

Y2J

flying_dutchman

Find a car rental place in LA/OC that will rent you a nice stick shift car. Then you and your friends won't feel bad about wear and tear on the clutch, pressure plate, syncro mesh's, etc. Practice on a big, flat parking lot, then find a place with a moderate hill to practice standing starts. Once you've mastered those two, you'll be better than the majority of California drivers, 20% of whom don't have a valid license and 33% who don't have car insurance. Good Luck!

SouthernBoy

A few simple thoughts.

Manual transmissions are far less expensive to own and maintain.

Manual transmissions have a significantly higher "fun factor" for the driving enthusiast.

Manual transmissions will far outlast an automatic.

If anyone tells you that your clutch will need to be replaced in 50-70K miles, they DO NOT know how to drive a manual transmission. Barring racing or towing (or some other unusual circumstance), a clutch should easily go several hundred thousand miles before replacement.

Terms to understand: rev-matching, double clutching, rev-matching (sounds redundant, eh?).


Check out my posting at this link. Hope it helps you decide.

http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showt...t=downshifting

JetJock

After visiting Chicago last month...and driving the hwy you mentioned...I'd never get a MT car...just my opinion. You really need to live in a more rural area to enjoy a MT car.

1995hoo

I grew up in (and still live in) the DC area and have always driven manuals; I drive about 15 miles each way to work in downtown DC and I don't find the manual annoying in traffic, probably because it's what I'm used to driving. I think it's more fun, and I absolutely hate the way a lot of automatics spend time hunting for the right gear. Last month I drove an automatic (1996 Volvo 850) for a week after my Accord was rear-ended and I had a real problem driving the automatic smoothly--I was always kicking the thing down.

This may open me to a flame, but I think the proliferation of automatics is one of the problems on our roads because people don't know how to accelerate. I really think you do drive differently in a manual because you have to know when you're going to shift.

With that said.....I have a thought for our original poster on learning to drive a manual. First, it is absolutely worth doing even if you decide not to buy one. The reasons the other people mentioned are valid (friend gets drunk; emergency and only car available is a manual), plus if you ever travel overseas you will find that rental cars with automatics are substantially more expensive. Two years ago my parents were headed to France and before they were due to go I had to take my mother out to the high school car park in my car for her to relearn the manual, as she had not driven one since the mid-1980s but the rental car was to have one.

Anyway, back when I was learning to drive, I insisted that my father teach me how to drive a manual, and we spent a lot of time in his 1982 Accord. Hondas are great cars to learn on because they are so easy to shift. The first thing he had me do was to have me get a sense of the clutch actuation point, and the way he did this was to take me up to the high school car park on a weekend (when it was empty), put the car in front of--but not in!--a parking space, and then have me pull the car into the space using only the clutch and the brake (i.e., I was to let off the clutch, and then, as I felt the car start to lurch forward, I was to depress the clutch to avoid a stall and put my foot on the brake). It worked pretty well, and once I was able to avoid stalling the car this way he then taught me how to work the clutch in conjunction with the gas. I've since taught a couple of other friends via this same method and it's worked very well in that when they do progress to using the accelerator, the car bucks and kicks a lot less because they know what to expect as they let off the clutch. Whether it contributes to premature clutch wear is something I don't really know.

TBone2004

Uh, I think you are making some pretty blanket statements here and not 100% accurate. Several hundred thousand miles? - you are mistaken.

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

lies!

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

lies!

criss

I have been driving a stick since I started driving (14) around the back roads of PA. Spent alot of time working on farms and everything was a manaul transmission back then (trtactors, truck, & pickups)

The clutch went out on my 97 cl @ 175K but that was because the clucth plate got stuck (??? don't understand car speak ) when I had to do an emergency manuver to avoid an accident and burnt the clutch out. I started teaching my daughter (15) how to drive a stick this summer on my old CL the same way 1995hoo spoke about . She was amazed that you could make a car move without using the gas.

Anyway get what makes you happy. I know everyday I drive my 6MT I smile and I commute 60 miles one way in DC and Northern VA traffic. No regrets

Tedanddenise

Not hard to learn, but, in stop and go traffic, I think a manual wears you out to say nothing about the increased clutch wear. You might want to consult any other driver too - if someone else has to use your car (wife, brother, sister, etc) a clutch can be ruined by someone who doesn't know how to use it.

SouthernBoy

TBone2004;

No sir, I'm not mistaken. There are three primary reasons for premature clutch failure, excessive wear, and required replacement.

1. Poor or improper design. The clutch assembly was not properly designed for the vehicle and engine. This almost never happens since a good deal of forethought and design go into this component. It is in the best interests of a manufacturer to use good equipment here in order to avoid warranty claims.

2. Improper installation. Alignment and torque come into mind here. Again you can pretty much rule this one out.

3. Improper operation. This is the one that does virtually all of the damage. The driver.


Clutch assemblies are going to wear because that is what they do and how they work. But you can significantly reduce wear by learning, using, and adhering to proper operating techniques. I would say you could probably double or triple the life of a clutch assembly by using these techniques over someone who does not.

Granted there are a whole bunch of factors that come into play such as living in San Francisco or a very congested urban environment. But even there, you can increase the life of your clutch assembly over those who do not know how to properly operate a manual transmission (this may be the source of your comment, "some pretty blanket statements").

I have known people who have managed to get well into the first 100,000 miles on the original clutch and I KNOW I can easily pass the 200,000 mile mark (assuming the first two factors are met and nothing abnormal happens).

So I stand by my statements and will continue to operate my manual tranny as I have for the past 40 years.

BTW, the clutch installed in the TL feels to me to be a decent unit.

takkar

personally, i would not get a MT just because I am actively into sports and have slight injuries on my knees. The last time, i tore a cartilage between my knee and i would have problem getting into the car...luckily I had a auto then so i didnt have any problems with the clutch...but then again i agree that the fun factor is much more as you can keep control of the car

kenny5

I never learned how to drive a stick, but after reading all these posts, my interest is piqued. Does anyone know which car rental agency in NYC (more specifically Queens) rents stick shifts? I could ask my brother in law to teach me, and hopefully I would learn the basics over a weekend.

Like me, my wife does not drive a stick, so our cars are all automatics. In light of that, I don't think I will buy a stick even after I learned how to drive one. Do you think if I don't practice, I would forget how to shift (say in 3 to 4 years)?

I wonder what percentage of U.S. drivers know how to drive a stick. My guess is less than 5%, although I think that percentage is substantially higher in foreign countries.

SpecialFX

I agree with the above posters who say to try to drive a MT for a bit before you drop $35k on a new car you may not enjoy. It’s not for everyone. My TL is AT because my wife usually drives it and she simply will not learn to drive a manual. Has no interest in doing so. This is the second AT for me in 22 years of driving. I had one other, which I hated and traded after a short while.

After driving a manual for a short time it becomes second nature. I prefer it for spirited driving but in stop and go traffic on Long Island I do appreciate the AT in my wife’s old car, which I now drive to work. I’m looking for a weekend car for myself, which will definitely be a manual. Maybe an S2000. Not sure yet.

I’ve taught a number of people to drive and they all did pretty well. Except maybe my sister. As far as durability, Southernboy is correct in his posts. An MT will USUALLY have less maintenance issues and a modern clutch will last a long time. Especially in a car like the TL, which has much better low-end torque than some others. Why, you ask? Because the low-end torque means you won’t need to slip the clutch to get the car moving smoothly from a stop like my old gutless Civic. Even though that car needed some “finesse” (read clutch slippage) to get going I put 175K on the original clutch before I sold the car. I’m not sure how long it lasted after that. Considering many ATs would have needed a full rebuild by then, at $1000+ and I spent not once cent on my clutch/tranny in that time, I’d say that’s pretty good. And that includes may hard launches with lots of wheel spin. Hey, I was 16! I’ve had similar mileage on other clutches with no problems. Only once did I replace a clutch, on a car I bought used that had been wrecked in the front end and had a bad motor mount that went undetected. And even that one went 120K Bottom line: once you are smooth with the clutch you will have no problems, unless you race it or beat on it.

In the end, get what you’re comfortable with and above all - - Enjoy it.

Good luck.

04acura tl

traffic sucks with a stick! 0 to 60 is quicker with the auto according to what I have read! the 1/4 mile is quicker with the stick! I wanted to buy a stick car but ended up getting the auto so my wife could drive it. with the traffic I drive in I am glad I got the auto! Which dealer are you dealing with??

TBone2004

SB -

Since I no longer drive a stick - too much traffic - not worth it, I honestly do not care, but wanted to point out that not all clutches are going to last 200K. Will some - sure. Will some only driving on country roads - sure. Those that are subject to bumper to bumper traffic 5 days a week - not as many. Then one must define "failure". I have never had a clutch fail - but after some time you can feel when she needs to be replaced. So maybe you drive yours until failure - because you would be a fool to suggest that the clutch stays the same for 200K. Maybe your tires are bald too, but you are getting 150k on those - who knows - who cares really. I just wanted to point out that not all clutches last 200k - in fact the majority don't. Parts wear out - they are designed to. Let me guess you get 200k on a set of brake pads too and your tires as well?
TB

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

on a non argument note I have been driving stick for about 4 years. After reading this post I actually started paying attension to what i was doing. I found that I really DONT know what I am doing. Well I do but the car jerks shifting from Neutral to first to second to third after that there is no jerk. I checked out that driving instruction page posted earlier and it says to "blip" the throttle just a bit. What does that mean? What am I doing wrong? Seems as if i have to ride the clutch (a huge no no) to get a smooth shift ... heeelp meeeee I dont want to ruin my clutch prematurely

TBone2004

sounds like you are coming off the clutch too quick or your timing is off from releasing clutch and pressing accelerator. Have you been doing this same style for 4 years? Or just with new TL - cause sometimes it takes a bit to get the feel of it.

ludachrisvt

iTrader: (2)

same style probably ... one of my friends rode with me and was like "so u still havent learned to drive stick yet huh?" How do I get the timing right? I guess since the car was moving I started getting used to the jerk ...

TBone2004

I normally would say practice, but if you say its been 4 years....I dunno.

Wait for some of these other guys that have been driving stick all their lives to reply.

I used to ride motorcycles since I was a kid, so I just kinda was used to the clutch out gas in thing...no worries - you'll get it. I actually watched my wife years ago before I took over her car to see her footwork - cause she shifted flawlessly.

Salut

Sure you were...

Looking at her "footwork"

SpecialFX

ludachrisvt:

Your timing is off. You have to press the clutch in to the point of disengagement as you come off the throttle. If you let off the throttle with the clutch still engaged you will get some engine braking as the revs drop. You will feel the car rock forward. After changing gears the clutch/throttle timing is the same. Let the clutch out all the way prior to getting on the throttle and the car will shudder. It must all be done quickly. A good driver can shift in less than .25 second or so. If you shift too slowly the revs fall and when you let the clutch back out the car jerks as the revs are pulled back up. There should be no jerking at all if it's done quickly and smoothly.

When stopped you must be sure to give the car enough revs to pull away smoothly. This is where the TL should do well since there should be ample low-end torque to not have to slip the clutch to keep the engine from bogging. This is usually where people have the most trouble. To little gas, you can buck and/or stall. Too much gas and you can slip the clutch excessively.

The "blip" you're talking about is when downshifting. When downshifting, the lower gear ratio will require higher engine speeds. The idea is to "blip" the throttle to bring the revs up so that the engine is at the proper speed for the lower gear. Also known as "rev-matching" or "double-clutching" because you press the clutch, take the transmission out of the higher gear into neutral, release the cluch all the way out, blip the throttle, press the clutch in again, put the car in the lower gear, then release the clutch. Sounds complicated but it's not and it can be done quickly. If the pedals arrangement allows this can be done while braking by doing what's called "heel and toe-ing" although that's a bit of a misnomer since you can't usually use your heel and toe. You brake with the left side of your right foot and reach over with the right side of the same foot and blip the throttle. Some cars allow this to be done. I don't know about the TL with MT.

Finally:
Remember, the only time there is wear on the clutch is when it is not fully engage or fully disengaged. Anywhere in between those two points there can be relative motion between the plates, meaning WEAR. I was at he mall a couple of weeks ago and heard a car revving wildly. I turned around to see a 350Z leaving the parking lot. The driver was slipping the clutch so bad I can't see the clutch going 5000 miles.