ngg19

I have read your shifting tips and find them helpful. I need your thoughts on the following:
I tend to ride the clutch while in reverse more than in any other gear due to its torque. Is that proper?
And, I tend to be a bit lazy at stop signs. Near my house I rarely come to a complete stop--the car is traveling approx 5mph while in 2nd gear. Do think I am doing unnecessary damage by not shifting into first?

jennarocks

Yo Sboy, what do you mean by start the shifter into a higher gear? In stop and go traffic, i start off in first when starting off and when i stop or am coming to a stop, i shift to neutral and im off the clutch.

SouthernBoy

Downshifting is downshifting regardless of the situation at hand. When you downshift by just releasing your foot from the throttle, shifting the the chosen lower gear, the slowly release the clutch.. what you are doing is causing the drive wheels to pull the engine back up from a lower RPM to the speed at which it must be when the clutch is fully engaged in the lower gear. As you move down through the gears, this becomes harder and harder on the clutch (ever notice that you need to "slip" the clutch more in lower gears than in higher gears when doing this?).

Point is, you should always rev-match both the engine speed and the speed of the transmission gears before completing the shift.

SouthernBoy

No, it isn't. A minute is 60 seconds and that's a long time to hold your clutch pedal in. This puts additional wear on your release bearing. What I do is wait until the other light turns yellow before I engage the transmission and sometimes on a long delayed green, I even wait until the other light turns red. Of course. you should start to shift to a higher gear first and THEN go into first gear.

If I come up to a light the is changing, I just shift into the gear I need to be in and go on the green.

SouthernBoy

Riding the clutch in any gear is not a good thing with one exception. Drag racing. When launching a manual car in a drag race, certain amount of clutch slipping is almost mandatory.

With that said, as for riding the clutch in reverse, here is why you do this. We seldom drive in revserse for obvious reasons, so it is not "natural" to use to launch the car in reverse. After all, we are not doing this in preparation for a shift to higher reverse gear. So if feels more natural to ride the clutch some in reverse and I know this is a hard thing to control. Try to keep it to a minimum, but a certain amount is inevitible.

Oh no.. rolling stops. Please do NOT do this. But since you ask. If you are down to, say 5 MPH or less, I would suggest using first gear to get back up to speed. If you rev-match (blip the throttle, release the clutch a bit as you pass through the neutral gate, then back in with the clutch to complete the shift), it will go right in to first quite nicely. You'll know if you are stressing the car if you feel the engine lugging (laboring) in first second gear at low speeds.

SouthernBoy

What I mean here is this. Let's say you're in stop and go traffic and you're going from first with clutch engaged to stop with neutral and clutch disengaged and back again. This is a very common stop and go situation, right. When you see the vehicle in front of the one in front of you start to move, depress the clutch and start to shift into, say, third gear. You can complete the third gear shift or just start it. The point is do this, then move the shifter into first gear and start to move.

This action will help to match the speed of the drive and driven gears. While not absolutely necessary, it's just a little thing to help prolong the life of your synchronizers. Try this. With your car parked and your engine idling, depress the clutch then immediately shift to first gear. Don't cram the thing in there.. just apply a few pounds of pressure to the shifter for the shift. Then do the same thing while shifting into third gear. You will notice that the shifter goes into third gear with less force and effort than into first gear. This is due to the synchronizers matching the speed of the drive and driven gears for the dog teeth to mesh during the shift. So if you start (or even complete) your shift into third gear before going into first, you will reduce the amount of work the synchros must to to match gear speeds.

jennarocks

NICE! SBoy, i think your sole purpose on AZ is to be our resident 'Manual Transmission Evangelist'. Good stuff man.

SouthernBoy

Well, now, I've been called a lot of things, but that's a first. This would surprise my wife since she works part time for a church.

But seriously.. we're all here on this site to learn from each other and share our experiences and love of the automobile.

Thanks for the kind words and do have an enjoyable holiday weekend.

jennarocks

Up here in Microsoft country, we use terms like that, especially some tech trainers i know.... they're are called tech evangelists... so ergo, you are a manual transmission evangelist.

haha, only meant in the best way.

SouthernBoy

Oh, I didn't take it in any sort of a negative manner. I tend to think of people of the cloth in only good ways.. they give up a lot to do the work they do (most anyway).

Here in the "tech" center of Virginia (which also means the entire east coast), we call our techie "experts", gurus. My former boss (former as of last fall due to a little switching around on the project) is amazing. Not a good manager at all, in terms of management ability, but one heck of a guru in the technical arena. It's been my experience in the software world that techies tend to make poor managers because they lack patience and the "human" skills necessary to manage a variety of people.

And what the heck does this have to do with transmissions, eh?

Here's one for you. Did you know that when you are shifting gears that you are NOT actually shifting gears at all? All of the gears in a manual transmission are in a constant mesh state. In fact, years ago, the term constant mesh was common to describe a then new concept of manual transmission.

"Well", you ask. "If you're not shifting gears, then what exactly are you shifting?"

You're causing a collar, or hub, to slide into matching components of gears in order to couple them to other gears of different ratios (sizes). It is through this coupling (this is where the dog teeth mesh to slots in the receiving gear's hub) that we get the different ratios of the different "speeds" of our manual transmissions.

So the next time someone talks about shifting gears, remind them that they are not really shifting gears at all but rather sliding collars into hubs to mesh dog teeth. Most likely they won't know what you're talking about so save this little message for the clown who likes to pretend his knows it all about cars at some party or conversational gathering.

sdaeb02

Yes, I am an experienced MT driver, however I've noticed that my 1st gear catches in a much different place than the rest of the gears in my TL. Has anyone else noticed this with theirs?

SouthernBoy

Can you elaborate a bit on this? Not really sure what you are referring to when you say "my 1st gear catches in a much different place than the rest of the gears".

jennarocks

I think he means the fact that the catch point on the TL seems so low (low to the floor)... so it seems more sensitive and awkward to drive in 1st and 2nd gear. the clutch seems to be less sensitive when shifting thru the rest of the gears.

My catch point seemed to come up a little so it feels much more natural now. If this is not the what he means, then forget what i just said. haha

jennarocks

oops.. i believe the he is a she.

SouthernBoy

Oh yeah.. I see that. I was using English language rules that whent he sex of the subject is unknow, you use the masculine gender (here is the proper use of the word "gender" which has nothing to do with human sex in traditional English).

SouthernBoy

Assuming you're right and this is what the lady means, then the reason is simply gear ratios.

The cluch pedal in the TL has a relatively short travel and an even shortern takeup (takeup is the distance from the point of initial engagement to that of fll engagement). Add to this the fact that the distance from initial engagement to the point where the pressure plate and flywheel are exerting enough pressure on the clutch disk to move the car is really short. Now you pu this in a car with a light throttle pedal (because of drive by wire) and a fairly low first gear, and you can get surging and bucking and stalling and just a very sensitive first gear launch. All of the manual TLs I've driven have been like this so it takes a little getting used to if you have not experience this before.

ragin

This is a great thread. Since it has veered off topic a bit, I wont feel too bad about posting my question. I'm posting here mainly because I know SouthernBoy is reading it :-)

This is going to be hard to explain. I hope it makes sense.

My 5th gear has a flutter feel to it when in gear and I push the stick up and to the right. When I let it rest in the normal 5th gear position I feel nothing, but when I put a little pressure on it (like resting my arm on it pushing upward and out) I can feel this strange flutter. It doesn't grind, but feels like the stick is touching another gear or something. I've never felt this before in any MT. Is something amiss?

My MT is an 06 with 650 miles. Break in period over; it's great to feel VTEC again.

SouthernBoy

I believe I may have detected something similar to what you are describing in my 3rd gear when I apply a slight amount of pressure to the shifter in the manner you have mentioned. I'll have to go out and try this in both 3rd and 5th to see.

SouthernBoy

ok, I just got back from a 6-mile run down the road to see if I could detect what you are describing and what I thought I may have experienced myself.

I felt nothing unusual or strange. I tried applying light pressure to the shifting in both an upward movement and an upward-and-angled movement away from the driver. I did this in both 3rd and 5th gears at several different speeds and felt nothing out of the ordinary.

Let's see. You are pushing the shifter up and away from you in 5th gear. This would put some pressure on the shifting forks against the collars and synchronizers of the driven gears which have already done their job by successfully making the shift. So you might be feeling some vibration from the forks contacting the collars, but unless there is some unusual wear there, I wouldn't think this would produce anything more than some sense of friction or vibration.

Have you done this when the transmission is in cold, warm, and hot states and still received the same results? What about your transmission fluid level? is it normal? Does it need to be changed (too many miles on it)?

jennarocks

haha.. i was looking at sdaeb02's caption... 'P/T contract hitwoman'

i assumed that the user was female...

ragin

Thanks for the reply. I've noticed that the 3rd gen warms up faster than my 2nd gen Type-S. I'll try and see if I can get it in 5th while it is still cold.

I only have 650 miles so I wouldn't think it is the fluid. I first noticed this with about 300 miles on the car. I can easily reproduce it.

I plan to switch to the Synchromesh, I'm just not certain that I should do it so early in the car's life. I'm thinking at ~5k I'll make the switch.

I'll keep you posted on my findings. I may have a tech take a look at it next time I'm in for maintenance. Thanks again for the insight.

realfresh

hello all, this is a very informative thread, thanks everybody (esp. southernboy). My 06TL is my first manny as well, I was just wondering if you guys could help me with 2 concerns
1.) when i'm starting from a stop in 1st, my rpms usually go up to around 1800, is that too high? (too much clutch riding?)

2.) and also, especially when i'm not thinking about it, my 1st to 2nd shift is a bit unsmooth. When I'm in between 1st and 2nd and shifting, sometimes I/my passengers lunge (a bit of an exaggeration) forward. Any advice? I don't do that in any other gears. Btw, for example, when I'm driving at night, I notice sometimes my headlights' line will dip a little bit when i'm going 1-2.


Yeah...sorry for the long and probably confusing explanation. But any help is appreciated, thanks a lot guys!

realfresh

Btw ragin, i guess acura has a new mtf, so you might want to wait and see what some of these guys think before you use synchromesh. Just a heads-up.

SouthernBoy

Go back and read through the pages of this thread and you'll find some information about reasons why you're having some problems with your 1-2 shift. Basically, it has to do with the rather wide ratio difference between first and second gears and the very short takeup of our clutches. I'm sure I posted some reasons for this Also, go back and find the thread called, "Shift points for 6MT". It's on page two and there is some info there as well.

As for starting off in first at 1800 RPM, yes that is a bit high. I try to keep my first gear starts around 1200 to 1300 RPM. Of course, there are many variables involved such as being on an incline, needing to get moving quickly, load conditions, ect. But generally, that is the RPM range I try to stay in when I start off in first.

Since you are new to the world of manual transmissions, you might want to read this posting. Use this link and go to post #23. If you have questions, please ask.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143261

realfresh

thanks southernboy for the help, i'll re-read that guide. And i'll try taking 1st to 3000-3500rpms before shifting. I didn't even realize but I think I have been shifting much sooner than that.

SouthernBoy

Again, it's really difficult to attach a finite RPM range at which one should launch a vehicle and then shift through the gears as they build up speed. Just too many variables involved to make anything cast in stone like this.

I do generally make my 1-2 shift in the range of 3000 to 3500 RPM, but I am still cognizant of traffic and road conditions where this could change at any moment.

Another thing that's rather curious. Acura markets our manual transmissions as being "close ratio" units and most on this site believe this to be the case. But that's just not so. Here are the gear ratios or our transmissions;

1st - 3.933
2nd - 2.478
3rd - 1.700
4th - 1.250
5th - 0.975
6th - 0.770
final drive ratio = 3.285

Notice the really wide ratio spread between first and second gears. This completely removes the label of close ratio. And even the spreads between 2nd and 3rd and 3rd and 4th are not all that close (though not fair enough to be called wide ratio). Plus we have a pretty high "rear end" (or final drive since we have front wheel drive). A 3.285 final drive is no where near a low gear.

All this means in the end is that you should be aware of these things since it is you who is controlling the shift points and timing and not some ECU via an automatic transmission. Don't worry.. you'll get there because you obviously want to do it right.