quantum13

One more thing - I wanted to clear up something that might be taken the wrong way. On a post I made earlier while I was fresh from picking the car up that still pulled to the right (#35), I mentioned that the service adviser, Bob Johnson, told me that he was kind of bothered by a comment on the thread I'd printed out for him on the HFL system - that someone had called 'the people up at Acura' a-holes. He's a nice guy and I definitely could understand how he would be bothered by that - b/c he is definitely not an asshole. In my post I may have come across that I suggested that he was, in fact, an a-hole, and I wanted to be sure that the memebers of this forum do not read it that way. I said what I did because I was pretty pissed at the time and I wanted to basically explain to him why someone in a frustrated state would make a blanket statement about their experiences in a dealership like that. In short - that he's not an asshole but there are others who work in the industry that very likely are and frankly, don't give a rat's behind about anybody. At no time at all was I frustrated w/ him directly - it was more with the warranty policies at Acura and the idiot that drove my car (it wasn't Bob) that decided it didn't pull anymore. That is where the frustration came from. I want to apologize to anyone who might have interpreted my statements as being derogatory to him because he absolutely doesn't deserve to be smeared on the forum.

I want to point out that I would reccomend anyone that has a problem with an Acura to go see Bob Johnson or Brian Day at David McDavid. They both care about getting it taken care of and they both went through excessive troubles for me to try to get things taken care of for me above and beyond what I expected (and got) from other service advisers.

quantum13

First and foremost - the HFL ROCKS now. It is faster and hasn't misinterpreted my commands at all, so i'm very pleased with that repair. Sadly I still have rattles in the center stack, and my steering wheel cover is still scored but I have no hope of ever getting that handled due to Acura's policies on the matter...I'm glad that Bob was able to convince them to handle the HFL, however.

Anyway, I picked up the car on Saturday evening and went to drive it with Brian. The car doesn't pull to the right anymore! So of course I wanted the details. Brian is cool as shit and I quickly develeped enough trust in him, so to speak, to where I was able to listen to what he said and believe that what I was being told.

Okay - so credit goes to Smitty who earlier pointed this out:

It was the damn tires! Brian had them really look into this (why the technicians in the back didn't do this on Friday I don't know). They put it back on the alignment rack and it was still dead on. Apparently, on Friday they HAD already shifted the subframe and verified that all was correct on it. So they had to mess with the tires to try to figure out what was going on as that was the only option left. They ended up cross-rotating the tires where they actually take the tire off the rim, flip it, put it back on, then put the rims back on the car on the opposite side. What this resulted in is the inside of the right tire becoming the outside of the left tire and the inside of the left tire becoming the outside of the right. Apparently, the bias in the tires (this is a REAL problem! I thought it was more dealer BS) was causing the problem and moving them around in this way caused the imperfection in the tire to not show itself as much. The car still drifts to the right a LITTLE but this apparently is a normal thing and it is WAY better - plus, now that it has been proven to me that the car is OK i'm not worried about and i'm thinking that the next time around I buy tires i'll just get good ones. So on to the advice that Brian gave me:

He told me that for tires that are this aggressive, the construction and integrity of the tires is much more important than the type of tire that you might put on an accord (I use Yoko YK420's there). He basically told me that, for my car, I need to put really good tires on it. Michelin, Continental, Dunlop. He said no more Korean tires for me. The Kumhos I have apparently are cheap tires and they aren't constructed as well. He told me he didn't believe it either until he once cut one open and actually saw the poor construction. He also told me that Discount Tire makes the most margin on Kumhos and that those are the ones that they push first. They were the only ones I could get the next day anyway and I had to have them to pass inspection. He didn't reccomend the Turanzas (surprise surprise) or even the Yokohamas that come on the 18s because they are too soft. I have personal experience in this (and so does he) - the Yokohamas blister and scallop like crazy, causing road noise - and they wear quickly. Also, he mentioned that narrower channels on the tires trap less air as they turn and causes less road noise - apparently those deep, wide grooves that look so cool on tires (like the ones on the Yokohamas I had on the car stock) are the cause of the road noise and are generally found on a lesser tire - the Michelins apparently have narrower more frequent grooves that supposedly are better. So the next time around I'll be getting better tires - he told me that he is confident that the car is in perfect condition - he said he loved my car (6 Spd + A-Spec) and that if I stick w/ the better tires I shouldn't ever have to worry about this again.

Will Y.

Glad you kept at it and got your pull issue was resolved.

Many people don't seem to realize that tires can be defective or develop defects, even expensive high performance tires. Every pull or suspension miscue I've experienced in the past except one was from a tire problem, as opposed to an alignment problem (but I used to autocross in street stock, so my tire life was less than 10K!).

From what I've seen here, too many owners are willing to listen to some incompetent/lazy service advisors and blame the car/manufacturer instead of pressing to get a correctable issue resolved. Hope you get at the rattles at some point, too!

KJSmitty

Funny you mentioned Discount Tires and Kumhos Quantum13... They offered me every deal in the book to try a set.. Even to swap them with tire of choice if I didn't like them after install... I stuck with my research and demanded the Michelin PS2's (and they sold them to me for the same price as "Tirerack.com"..).. They have been a great tire for the TL.

Good luck with your TL..

PS - Plano - D/McDavid is also my service dept/dealer of purchase.. Hopefully I can have them swap out my 04 HFL module this fall!!

Cheers

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i am glad that your issue got resolved...

quantum13

Yeah, Brian told me that's the first tire they push. I won't make that mistake again. I'll be getting Michelins or Continentals the next time. I know about Continentals but not really about Michelins. What's a good tire to use for my car? I know they have several different types as all the other companies do. I probably need an all season tire but GOD I love the way the car handled with those Yokohama summer tires.... Anyway, I have the 18's - any advice would be appreciated.

MilanoR

This either is your first car or you just starting driving. EVERY, I MEAN EVERY car has to have a built in drift to the right. My friends Ruf GT2 has a slight drift to the right even. Everyone just needs to quit bashing this subject, because it is what it is, a drift to the right. Nothing will change this unless you have severly lowered your car and pulled your toe setting out of adjustment and/or your tires have a natural bias in the ply. BTW, this is Brian Day (A.K.A. MilanoR) and I would suggest that TL owners look at what rubber their driving on and quit blaming the dealer when the car alignment settings are in spec. DMD, McCurchill, Goodson or whoever can't tell big brother (American Honda or the Department of Trans.) what to do.

KJSmitty

WOW....

Most cars drift to the right due to the roads in the US being "crowned"... I've never owned a car that "drifted to the right" (or left) on a flat, even concrete freeway! And if and when it did, a simple alignment, BACK TO FACTORY SPECS fixed it (except for the three tire issues I mentioned previously).
On another note, big difference between a slight drift and a "pull" If an alignment specialist ever told me it was an "engineered-in pull to the right" I would laugh at his face and head to the next shop.. And for blaming the Dealer vs the tires.... One would hope the dealership would be smart enough to rule out the tires prior to checking alignment specs and telling the customer some BS like above..


I would love to see your "official/definitive" proof that the DMV/DOT or whomever mandates this "drift theory".... Then I would like to know how a manufacturer engineers this magic to a constant drift throughout the vehicles speed capability..? Because anyone who knows jack (A.K.A - $hit) would understand that a small amount of "built in right drift" at 25mph will turn into a strong enough "pull" to the right at 80mph or above to force the car into the ditch..... Then again, maybe it's only applied to cars with younger drivers due to the elderly not being able to overcome the "right drift" at highway speeds..

Boy, the things that make you go hmmmmmm.

Hopefully you're only joking or most of us will automatically assume you are close to "service advisor school" graduation..


PS - If I am totally out to the "right" here folks, I will be the first to start a thread titled:
My car drives perfectly straight and my dealership service department wont fix it!! What should I do!!!


It's all in fun

quantum13

The great debate rages on....all I can say here is that there is a big difference between 'pull' and 'drift'. I have to say that I've never noticed a drift to the right before in my accord. However, In MilanoR's (Brian's) defense, I talked to him at length about the topic and he does seem to know what he's talking about...

I look forward to more of this discussion!

KJSmitty

Honestly, my comments are not to prolong any debate or discussion. :-)

I just felt compelled to respond given my 40+ years of driving, a life-long mechanic, and having numerous vehicles aligned over the years etc.. Not once have I ever had a mechanic/alignment shop use the above statements. Nor in the 8+ years working at a very large dealership that sold and serviced 6 different car manufacturers vehicles both foreign and domestic did this tidbit of knowledge ever surface.. And we probably performed on average 10 alignment jobs a day using some of the most current and sophisticated alignment equipment. I truly don't remember any of our mechanics coming back from manufacturer cert training and remotely having this as a right drift/pull excuse.

I'm just stating what I know..


As for tire choices for your TL, definitely look at the Michelin Pilot Sport 2's and the Pilot Sport All Season.. They cost a little more, twice as much as several brands - but they don't flat spot like others nor have the balancing/tracking problems many cheaper brands do. Sure, their is always the bad luck of getting a poor set, but I have had absolute luck with Michelin were others have been bad on near all occasions..

Good luck

Cheers

MilanoR

Of course......an idiot should know that.

A pull is when you have to hold on to your steering wheel because your car is heading into the right or left lane. There is a difference, but what do I know, I do believe I took care of Han's problems ruling out an alignment issue and found his bias in his front tires......but I'm getting to sleep, got a big graduation tomorrow!

I hope I past my final.

Oh just for the record, In my 10 years of racing NASA and IDRC.....let's just say I've owned a few fun cars......here's a list......I think I've done pretty well.

03 Tarmac Black EVO VIII
4G63 @ 28psi 346whp.....NASA set up with Ohlins.....ran some high high 11's in 1/4 mile

98 Championship White Integra Type R #449
B20/B16 - sleeved, built, T60-1 .63 A/R trim Turbo......627fwhp @ 38psi for IDRC ran it's best on a Quaife, Pro Drives and street tires 10.01 1/4
B18C5R - sleeved, built, JUN valvetrain, 13.0:1 JUN Pistons, Ohlins Coils..etc.....247fwp for NASA

00 Formula Red S2000
Comptech Novi 1000 SC, Comptech Aftercooler, I, H, E, Ohlins Coils...etc........346rwhp @ 12psi

92 Black NSX
Just Work Meister 18x9/19x10 wheels, Comptech CBE...etc......never dynoed, who cared

1997 SSBP Supra T66 Single, BPU+++...etc......745rwhp @ 28psi another fun one

Not trying to brag here, but I've raced or raced in just about anything and everything under the sun. From Ruf GT2's, 350 Stradale Modena's, Gallardo's, Evo's. I've done just about every Camber, and/or toe set-up to beat my own times.

Will Y.

No, the TL is one of several cars I've owned and one of many I've driven. I've been driving since about 1980 and began autocrossing with the SCCA in NoCal in 1981. However, I have not had or heard of a properly aligned street stock car or modified sports car with proper alignment and good tires that will pull or drift on a flat road. This excludes circle and oval track cars of course.

Are you are talking about "drift" being incredibly subtle and occurring if a driver releases the steering wheel for a thousand yards or more?? If that's the case, I won't argue. However, I have yet to notice a properly aligned car with good tires drifting in less than a couple of hundred yards, which is the most distance we in urban California would have to let go of the wheel before traffic intrudes.

Does that "drift" for safety mean that the right-hand drive British and Jaapanese cars should drift to the left??

MilanoR

Yes, so just in case someone were to fall asleep at the wheel.....that was the original purpose. My friend Alex Yoshi has a Skyline R32 and R33 in Northern Tokyo and both drift slightly and yes I mean slightly in about 1000 yards to the left. Well his did on his R33 until he added the Zeal Coils and Volks. He mainly into 4 wheel drift events with this car. That's what I'm in the process of at this moment. I'm heading to the auction Aug. 30th-31st. I'm about to start another build project, but I just moved into my newly built home (thank GOD) and I get married on Saturday. I'm thinking 240sx with an RB25 or 26 swap, an RX7 with a built and ported 13B, a built IS300, b/c my fiance won't let me touch hers now......or another Type R? Hmmm....any help anyone?

MilanoR

By the way eveyone........I walked the stage today. I got a little emotional.

Sorry, I had to re-hash it a little. (Just having a little fun here)

MilanoR

Yes, so just in case someone were to fall asleep at the wheel.....that was the original purpose. My friend Alex Yoshi has a Skyline R32 and R33 in Northern Tokyo and both drift slightly and yes I mean slightly in about 1000 yards to the left. Well his did on his R33 until he added the Zeal Coils and Volks. He's mainly into 4 wheel drift events with this car. That's what I'm in the process of at this moment. I'm heading to the auction Aug. 30th-31st. I'm about to start another build project, but I just moved into my newly built home (thank GOD) and I get married on Saturday so the banks are loving me right now. I'm thinking 240sx with an RB25 or 26 swap, an RX7 with a built and ported 13B, a built IS300, b/c my fiance won't let me touch hers now......or another Type R? Hmmm....any help anyone?

quantum13

Holy crap Brian - you are graduating, you are getting married, and you just bought a house! I don't even know how you are handling the stress, man. Major life changes like that are freaking killer.... Hell, I graduated while I was having a house built - then after I finished school my life ended up in the crapper for about a month... it's real weird finally finishing a goal and then not really knowing what to do next. You've got alot going on but it sounds like all is well. Good luck man!

Also, my TL is doing fine. I love it again. The car actually pulls the way it is supposed to depending on road crown and tracks very nicely down the street on a flat road. Before, the car NEVER pulled left even if I was damn sure it should be. I tell you what - with these damn 8.5" 18s - you feel EVERYTHING. Basically any uneveneness is pretty clearly felt. Let's just say it's hard to find a road that's flat enough for my car to not go somewhere. I don't have to yank on the wheel to keep it in my lane going 80 mph though so all is well. Thanks for working with me to figure it out - i appreciate that you were willing to do what it took and 'prove' the issue to me. Next time around it'll be Michelin Pilots or Continental ContiSport (or something along those lines).

MilanoR

Anytime.....

MilanoR

Not really, I was just being sarcastic to Will Y...? You know, the whole service advisor school and all.....It's all funny to me.

quantum13

Haha I'm a dumbass. That makes SOOO much more sense. Thank you for making me feel stuipd...

No, seriously though, I know what he's talking about tho. Sometimes you feel like the canned responses you get from service shops in general are such BS. When I walk into a service shop, esp. one attached to a dealership, I keep my guard up - I'm sure that's the sort of thing he was talking about. I mean, honestly, thats how I felt about the whole tire bias thing...until someone explained it to me and actually proved it.

Anyway, i think what you mentioned when I was at the dealership sorta stuck with me - the service department is totally separate from the sales floor. Honestly, sales is a dirty dirty business and I think that many times it's hard for people to separate that culture on the sales floor from the attached service center. And that's not to mention the completely terrible ethic at some service centers anyway. Sadly, as a service adviser, i'd say that you probably have an uphill battle to convince folks that you actually aren't trying to shaft them...

KJSmitty

I'm glad you found humor in it. I actually had no idea how "close to home" my "service advisor" comments were..... However, this safety feature/right drift theory doesn't float with me. Way to many variables result in it being ineffective and irrelevant as a "required safety measure".


Now, I will admit I am quite anti-service department given my vehicular knowledge/mechanic level and the slew of "poor" (OK, absurd) comments/explanations received from dealership service representatives over the years.. Working at a dealership in the past and understanding the arena quite well only makes those moments that much more frustrating. I also fully understand that the "approach" by many costumers tends to bring out the best (being sarcastic here) in service advisers.. It would be a tough job at times.

Bottom line though - if you can't fix it, aren't allowed to fix it, won't fix it, CND, need another shot at it, or plumb screwed it up etc.,,,, tell the truth.. I know our customers always responded to that the best.

An area where there is no debate though - best of luck with your weekend "agenda" and future.

PS -- See you at DMD. A good friend of mine swore by your service dept and that is why I chose to purchase my TL there. I've only had to utilize your services once thus far. I dropped my car off and returned planning for the worst.. I was pleasantly proved wrong and it was a positive experience resulting in a near perfect assessment score.


Cheers

MilanoR

I would have to agree with you in most cases. I just sold my EVO VIII and the dealer whom which will remain nameless, but they rhyme with Ron Daring Mitsubishi....he he had me screaming at the owners daughter in the service department for calling me a liar! Trust me, I told myself that I would never be a Service Advisor a while back, but never say never.