young_p0

as i said ive been lookin for a new car. plus im in iraq and i dont get to use a comp often. but i saw the new passat and thought it was pretty nice as well. the acura tl is still one of my top two pics, but im liking the passat a lot...

what do you guys think?

HiTEC

Having owned 5 Audi's.... and only being interested in the 3.6L Passat. I would never pay $40 for a VW. The current A4 that I have was $44K, and I'd take my A4 over the Passat any day.

VW Didn't learn with the last Passat W8 that nobody was interested in paying that much for a VW car. They didn't learn with the Phaeton (which was a total flop), and now they bring back a $40 Passat again????

People in the US will not pay that much money for a VW sedan. People will pay that much for an SUV, but not a sedan.

Sorry... I'd skip

young_p0

the passat i was looking at is only 26 k for an 06

bothfly

Dude,
I really really like the 3.6L Passat. I almost went for it over a New TL. It really drove nice (that's my last really, really). But I wanted the 4Motion, which no one knows when it will be out. So FWD 3.6 vs FWD TL = TL. The Nav on the Passat is a joke. But I did like the styling. Much more famly and sporty. I actually drove a 06 Passat over to the Acura dealer and put them side by side. It helped. The TL is smaller, but the overall cost value is way on the TL side. I pick my TL up tomorrow!

fsttyms1

I wouldnt touch a vw. ive known too many with horrible reliabaility. Not to mention the price for a decently equiped Passat is a joke

FrmrMaxOwnr

You ain't gonna get a comparably equipped Passat for anywhere near that price. Figure on spending about $6-7000 more than a TL.

2K2SilverTL-S

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Cyph3r

I currently own a 2000 Passat and recently bought a 2006 TL. I'm in the process of selling the Passat and I can't be more glad when it's sold!

I would not buy another VW again. Especially one that costs about 40k or so. The cars reliability, like any other manufacturer, is hit or miss. But I would consider their dealer networks to be a lot worse to deal with.

I think the TL is a much better bet.

Regards

kennyc

Excellent point!

People often forget to factor in things like dealership, after-sale support and service, and maintenance/repair cost. I used to own an A4 and I can tell you repair/maintenance cost will be a lot more than the Acura.

Another thing to worry about is the resale value. Go to cars.com and check out how much a 2-3 years old passat costs - most VW's and Audi's just bleed away resale values - I know b/c I'm still in pain from trading in my A4...

xavier25

I agree the reliability is hit or miss, but seems to miss quite more often... I had a 01 VW Golf which was good while under warranty, but once warranty was up, the MAF went out which VW took forever and a day to recall and power relay failed on the highway at 70mph (was lucky to be able to pull over with no acceleration or power steering) The extremely horrible dealership decided the brake controller was bad, so they replaced that, charged me 2k and then said it was a relay. Got no where arguing with that one, so basically I would never buy VW again.

I had an 04 Volvo S40 T5, which was no better, therefore I traded in for the TL.

I researched quite a bit and could not find anything better than the TL for the price paid and everything you get...So far I'm extremely pleased.

Brettg

My 2003 passat was the worst car I ever owned, new or used.
Some people have luck with the cars, but the first year of a car, with the first year of a new motor from a brand rated 35 out of 37 brands for reliability does not seem like a smart buy to me.

Reliability aside, the VW cars are great, good steel, loads of nice options, nice riding cars, and while some VW owners say the new passat seems a bit cheaper feeling inside, and some dont like the new style, the cars are better than the old ones, better handling, stronger motors, 6 speed auto transmissions, more room inside....
If you want a manual transmission, it only comes in a striped down 2.0t version.

Maintanance costs are high, many dealers really suck for service.
Look at the 1.8t.org web site for dealer ratings.

Brett

gainful

Th New Passat and Jetta are so freaking ugly! Their previous generation were industrial styling leaders and overybody copied them. But now their designers are out of their mind.

Yea, their reliability are horrible also. I have seen a Passat with 3 out of the 4 power windows failed.

I have been bashing 3rd Gen here, yea its true that the Acura tries to intrigue customers with fancy look and tech gimmicks, and not refining their mechanical design as they do before. But Acura still has a hell better reliability than VWs, which pretend to be "exotic" and "european flavor".

Brettg

Well, the long term reliability ratings for VW are worse than the initial quality ratings.
Jaguar was second in initial quality, but none of their cars have a good record for reliability long term, and are always listed in the used cars to avoid.
My GLX had ONE initial quality problem, the fan sensor, and was good for a bit over a year, then fell apart.

As the government mandates more electronics, and people expect lots of gizmo's, its getting very hard to build a reliable car.

The auto makers who do electronics best seem to do the best in reliability.

Modern cars now have:

ABS,
Traction control,
Stability control,
OBD2,
Evap testing (pump that tests for gas tank leaks),
Anti pinch power windows,
Safety interlocks,
Electronic parking brakes,
Hid headlights that turn,
Drive by wire throttles and steering,
Electronic auto transmissions,
Navi systems,
Climatronic,
Remote entry/alarm/anti theft,
Memory seats/mirrors/steering wheel,
Parking sensors,
Tire pressure monitors,

And other stuff I forgot....

That is a LOT of gizmo's!
One bad connection, and half that stuff wont work!

All the problems I had on my passat were in electric/electronic parts.
Coolant temp sensor,
Fuel pump,
evap solenoid,
evap test pump,
TIP transmission electronics,
Climatronic flap motors.

I did not have one mechanical failure on my passat.

So it makes sense that the people who do best with electronics will do best in automotive reliability.

Brett

F23A4

While a loaded Passat does cost more than the TL, it's not quite THAT much more. According to VW's website, a loaded 3.6L Passat (non 4Motion) costs $38k (Sport Pkg #2, Navi and Splash guards). Add $2k more for 4Motion.

IMHO, there's just NO WAY I'd consider it over a TL or G35X at this price point.

ttliang

feel sorry already for whoever's gonna but the VW.

young_p0

lol. so i take it passats just suck. thnks for the info...

kfk256

Looking at my crystal ball here. Yes,yes! i'm getting something. It's you in a passat looking at the Tl that just zoomed past you on the freeway, and you said "Men, i should have picked that car instead". It gets worse, but i'll save you the details and recommend the Tl.

Brettg

The Passat does not suck, both the old ones and the new ones are great cars to drive, they just are not reliable.
If its running at the time, you may not zip past a 3.6 passat so quickly, 280 hp and loads of tourqe at a much lower RPM.

If you buy a passat, you may love it more than any other car you ever had, untill
the problems start. Many people love them so much they just keep going back and buying VW's, despite the problems.

Brett

SouthernBoy

This past June, the wife and I went to a family member's wedding in Alexandria. Because of the location, there was no way either of us wanted to take her or my TL into that place. So I rented a car; a 2005 Pissant.. er Passat with only 1500 miles on it. Since it was a rental, it was endowed with a 4-cylinder engine and an automatic transmission.

Let me just say that I was not at all impressed. In late 2001, the Passat was one of the cars I was considering, but I got a 2002 Altima SE instead. While it was hard to get past the lack of power in this new 2005 Passat rental, the handling was what surprised me the most. I had expect more but it was nowhere in the same league as my '04 TL manual. Lack of turn-in, rather dead steering, and a general feeling of looseness or better to say, non-rigidity. And then the interior amenities. The radio was seriously lacking.. not just in sound quality, but station reception. And the A/C really sucked. I had to run the thing on MAX cold with recirculate most of the time in traffic. My TL and my wife's TL' A/C systems are WAY ahead of the one in the Passat.

So bottom line in my opinion. The Passat would be better placed as a comparison to the 2005 Hyundai Sonata. Nice looking car (I've liked the looks of the Passat for several years), but dead steering and handling. Nope, I'll take my TL any day.

ttliang

i dunno...sounded to me like it sucks. people who keep buying the same sucky things are stubborn in my book.

mio

I don't know why u guys keep blaming VW...

coz 4 of my friends own VW, they got 2 2003 jetta, 1 2002 beetle, and 1 2003 Touareg.

none of them got any problems so far...

So, is it really unreliable????

joed40

I owned a Passat. It was fun to drive, had sports suspension with descent rubber on it. Handled much better than stock TL. Had minimal problems with it. The major downfall was the VW dealership which was not setup to deal with selling a big bucks car. Poor parking, no loaners, or crap ones when you lucked out. Acura sells a high end car and has the dealerships that will treat you like you just plunked down 40K. That's what it is all about!

cpurick

The TL is not as nice to own or drive as it is to covet. I sold mine in four months, after I realized how much more there is to a car than styling. I'm pretty much resolved to only buying German cars from now on. There is a difference.

Acura's service and reliability are better than Volkswagen's, though no modern automobile is likely to leave you stranded. But I wouldn't put Acura on a pedestal: compared to Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, Audi and Mercedes, I would say Acura's widely regarded as the "least premium" premium brand.

TLVR

As the former owner of a 2002 V6 Passat-I must say that I do not care for the newly creased styling of the new Passats. Also the 3.6 VR6 is a big unknown as far as reliability goes. My 2.8 V6 was super reliable since they had that engine a long time and then I was lucky I picked a stripper-no sunroof,special climate control etc because all these electronics often went bad. Ofcourse the worst feature, IMHO, is that gaping grill snout from the Audi design team-and then there is the adjusted price pushing- $33K+?? No, in comparison the TL wins hands down in every category except that Neurenberg tuned ride quality.

afici0nad0

true... it is a hit or miss with reliability...

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2344132

afici0nad0

i would have to agree.

i see them as an entry-level luxury brand.

kennyc

What does "least premium" mean? Less standard equipment? low quality material? poor quality control? reliability issues? poor dealer service? low MSRP?

or just the lack of "brand recognition"?

As far as I can tell my TL has none of the attributes above, well, except the lower MSRP.

It's true that Acura cost the least compared to the brands you mentioned, but it does not mean it's cheap.

From someone who just went from a A4 to TL last month. You simply cannot beat the value of the TL. I really enjoyed my A4, it handles well and looks great inside and out. But the maintenance, repair, reliability and dealership experiences really turned me away from ever buying another German car. That and poor resale value. (BMW is the exception b/c of the desirablity factor)

It all boils down to what you're looking for in a car. If you would like to buy cars because it's a "premium brand" Acura might not be the ideal car for you.

But if you want make your money to go a long way. It's hard to beat an Acura.

SouthernBoy

I'm certainly not going to take you to task, as it's your decision to buy and own what you believe best satisfies your wants and needs. But I must say, after having owned a '96 BMW 328i automatic (with my wife - her primary car), if that car was any kind of example of BMW, or more widely, German engineering, I'd say they're seriously lacking in that department. I mean, not quality of manufacture (though there was that question, too), but design. That BMW left a lot to be desired and my 2000 SVT Contour was far better in most departments.

As for handling, my '04 TL manual handles considerably better than my wife's '96 BMW. We got rid of her BMW last March and got her an '05 TL automatic.

Personally, I'd rather go for the Cadillac CTS-V or the new Z06 Corvette. Now those cars drip performance.

crm_codder

Agree, just traded my old 2002 Passat (my son own for two years after I get TL). What a crapy car...
Lot’s of issues and cost a lot for service since it is German car. I get him new Mazda 3 2.4L and forget about famous German engineering forever....

No comparison to my 2004 TL. No more VW!!!!

joed40

I wouldn't put German auto's ahead of Acura. Who is putting the title "least premium" to the Acura?? Car and Driver ? Road and Track? None do any extensive, scientific testing as Consumer Report. When I think premium, I think about fit, finish, fun and reliability, (heavy on fun & reliability). One can not have fun if ones' car is not reliable. Before you plunk down big bucks read the reliability scores for Audi, BMW and Benz in Consumer Report, not impressive at all, some even mediocre. Even with the pseudo extended service plan for brakes, oil changes etc. (aside from oil you should not expect to replace any of the covered items within the four years anyway!!). Let's face it the quality in most German autos has diminished. I shopped, read all that I could, and realized a German name was not worth an extra $5-10K to compromise my fun and reliability. Not knocking the German owners' choice, merely explaining, with all the present testing, why I chose Acura. Not looking to start a large debate, but you can't refute objective and scientific testing.

Greg-ster

Least premium - People won't pay $50k for a RL. But they would be willing to pay $50k for a lexus...

cpurick

Flaming won't make a difference. All I see here are complaints about German reliability. But if you look at my original post, I already acknowledged Acura would be more reliable than the Passat. To me, that's not the selling point.

I found the interior of the TL wore very quickly. It spent several nights in the shop. I found that my dealer did pretty shoddy body work (a quarter panel and door that had been keyed before I bought the car). The headliner had problems. There were rattles. The doors actually flexed when the windows rolled up and down. There was visible rust at three months. While the doors fit well and closed effortlessly, if you closed one with the windows open the sound was reminiscent of an old Camaro. Same thing if you managed to bottom out the suspension -- on a railroad crossing, for example. The car would shake and flex like a city bus.

But the thing that moved me back to German cars was the handling. The TL just doesn't have that nice positive feeling at the wheel. It's numb.

I'm glad I went back to Audi. My TL was the biggest car-buying mistake I ever made.

German cars are more pleasant to drive, but only because that's the highest priority when they build them. At best, the TL is built to please the passenger sitting in the driver's seat.

kennyc

how about a $30k VW vs. a $30k TL?

kennyc

No one is flaming anyone. It is a legitimate discussion.

Have fun with the Audi, it will spend a lot more time in the shop and will be a lot more expensive. I do have to give you credit for the interior wearing issue - my TL's driver seat looks worn after 900mi. I blaming my fat ass for that.

Again, have fun with the Audi. Audi dealers are notoriously bad when it comes to workmanship and customer service. There are issues with Audi's headliner as well, and do not even mention rattles - ALL AUDI rattles!! I had the A4, my brother's TT, my friend's A8, another friend's S4 - they all rattle. I had so much rattle in my Audi that I striped my interior out and applied foam/tape where every piece of plastic meets metal. If your audi does not rattle now just wait until you put some miles on it.

I acutally like the sound TL makes when I close the door. The A4 took considerably higher effort to open/close. I agree the TL does not close with as much low-frequency thump as the A4, but comparing it to an old camero is just too much.

Can't argue with you there. A4 handles WAY better than the TL.


Sorry to hear the TL is such a disappointment to you. You're right, some German cars are more pleasant to drive. But let's break this down, please let me know if I miss anything

Audi's advantages
Handling
Styling
Door closes with authority
Does not rust (which is arguable)

TL's advantages
Reliability
Price
Resale Value
Performance (when the MSRP is silimiar)
Styling (I think TL looks hot!)
Customer service
Maintenance Cost

Again, I am not here to flame. I am happy that you prefer the Audi over the Acura, everybody has his/her own preference. I say if you can afford buying/leasing a new Audi once every 4 years then go for it! But if one wants a keeper, the TL is way better than ANY AUDI.

joed40

Agreed, not trying to flame anyone. As I said in previous post. My Passat handled much better than my TL. But here's hoping after new rubber and a-spec suspension I can remedy that. So I can then have best of both worlds, great handling and reliability. Was just sharing my shopping experience and my rationalization for purchasing the TL.

Gregg-ster! People do plunk down close to $50K for the RL. But with that same rationale you can also say people will be willing to slap down $600K for an Enzo, but they wouldn't do the same for a BMW! Lexus has a wider range of models and costs than Acura.

cpurick

Sorry, I had an Audi before my TL, and it was a pleasant ownership experience. For all the trouble I had with the TL, I only owned it four months.

Nope, the skinny folks have that problem too. (The seat problem, not the ass problem).

I'm on my second Audi. Between the two I've had exactly one rattle fixed, and the dealer fixed it on the first try. Other than that, it's built like a vault.

Try it with the window down.

Vault-like.

So what makes you so sure that a person wouldn't prefer handling over reliability???

Congratulations. You just tied with the Honda Civic. Maybe you should trade in your TL.

Why do you assume everyone wants a keeper?

adamsinger

i just sold my 99 a4 and got a 06 TL...

a WORLD of difference, id never look back---my audi had a christmas tree of lights lit up on the dash since i owned it, even when nothing was wrong. just tiny electrical problems all the time...

acura is way ahead of audi, except the a4 handled better, but i had coilovers on it...my acura stock versus the audi stock is no comparision

kennyc

Sigh... here we go...

Glad you have a good experience!

Just a joke.

Happy for ya! Do a search on the rattle on Audiworld.com or Audizine.com and see how many posts comes up. (You will find some of my posts there)

I will

You said your Audi handles better that the TL and I agree, what are you arguing about??

Now see, no need to be nasty! You do have a good point though.. TL is essentially a larger, more comfortable, faster, more luxureous, better looking, handling civic with the same build quality, reliability, and resale value. What's not to like? Just drive your Audi for 3-4 years and see how much you can get for trade in.

Not to mention the customer service at the Acura dealership!

Read my post again, I said "if one wants a keeper"

kennyc

I had H&R coilovers on mine! I loved it!

cpurick

How long have you had your TL again?

I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be a little premature for you to be deciding your TL's "a keeper?"