GTO 6.0 vs Competition.
03-12-2007, 03:45 PM
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GTO 6.0 vs Competition.
so i have always wondered how fast a GTO really is just wanted to get some feed back on what you guys thought of the GTO going up against its Japanese competition like the STI and the EVO or even up against a IS 350 or M3 i love Muscle cars and have always wondered how well a GTO 6.0 would do up against theese cars from a dig or a roll ive seen countless videos of GTO's beat Evos and STI's but when i read the forums STI owners usually say they beat the GTO and vise versa. what is the true outcome? thnks.
03-12-2007, 09:19 PM
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the 350hp version GTO can do 1/4mile in 14 sec. So I guess the 400hp one should cut that to 13.5? I don't know if it can do 13s at all, if not, I think the STi and EVO will beat the GTO since those two can do the 1/4mile in less than 13's. But that's partly because they are light and they have AWD traction. So from a roll, they should be pretty even and I think as the speed increases, the GTO should have the upper hand.
As for IS350, man it will be pretty close from 0-60mph but then I think the GTO will have the upperhand as speed increases since it has more hp (more than enough to compensate its 200lb disadvantage). M3, on the other hand, I don't know, but I think they will be neck-to-neck at all time. However, once ou enter the twisties, all the aforementioned cars will outhandle the GTO.
As for IS350, man it will be pretty close from 0-60mph but then I think the GTO will have the upperhand as speed increases since it has more hp (more than enough to compensate its 200lb disadvantage). M3, on the other hand, I don't know, but I think they will be neck-to-neck at all time. However, once ou enter the twisties, all the aforementioned cars will outhandle the GTO.
03-13-2007, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
the 350hp version GTO can do 1/4mile in 14 sec. So I guess the 400hp one should cut that to 13.5? I don't know if it can do 13s at all, if not, I think the STi and EVO will beat the GTO since those two can do the 1/4mile in less than 13's. But that's partly because they are light and they have AWD traction. So from a roll, they should be pretty even and I think as the speed increases, the GTO should have the upper hand.
As for IS350, man it will be pretty close from 0-60mph but then I think the GTO will have the upperhand as speed increases since it has more hp (more than enough to compensate its 200lb disadvantage). M3, on the other hand, I don't know, but I think they will be neck-to-neck at all time. However, once ou enter the twisties, all the aforementioned cars will outhandle the GTO.
As for IS350, man it will be pretty close from 0-60mph but then I think the GTO will have the upperhand as speed increases since it has more hp (more than enough to compensate its 200lb disadvantage). M3, on the other hand, I don't know, but I think they will be neck-to-neck at all time. However, once ou enter the twisties, all the aforementioned cars will outhandle the GTO.
i thought the GTO handling capabilities were really good? isnt that why they use GTO's in drifting? anyways i kno i remember seeing a Top gear episode were the GTO got the same time on the track the STI did.
03-13-2007, 04:42 AM
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03-13-2007, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
the 350hp version GTO can do 1/4mile in 14 sec. So I guess the 400hp one should cut that to 13.5? I don't know if it can do 13s at all...
03-13-2007, 08:43 PM
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I got those numbers from C&D: http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtest...gto-page4.html
It's the 350hp GTO with 6spd manual. I guess 14 sec seems slow but then the GTO is pretty heavy - 3800lbs. May be there are other factors that could make it run slower than usual. For example, that issue of C&D was in december, so I assumed they tested it in November or December, and the ground may be too cold for a good launch. But on the other hand, colder weather might help the engine run better...so..I don't know.
And that video is very nice, it gives you a good idea of what the GTO is capable of - it gets faster once it's in 2nd gear or above.
As far as handling goes, the GTO sure has a lot of grip. But compared with the STi, it loses in terms of agility, response, balance, and steering feel. What that means is, the GTO might do well on a track, but it will get nervous once you drive it on bumpier roads. So what I think is, it's obvious that the Corvette has better handling than the GTO, and I think no one would argue that the STi handles as well, if not better than the Corvette. So I would rate the handling of the STi above GTO's.
PS. Just found out that the 400hp GTO should do 0-60 in 4.8 sec.
It's the 350hp GTO with 6spd manual. I guess 14 sec seems slow but then the GTO is pretty heavy - 3800lbs. May be there are other factors that could make it run slower than usual. For example, that issue of C&D was in december, so I assumed they tested it in November or December, and the ground may be too cold for a good launch. But on the other hand, colder weather might help the engine run better...so..I don't know.
And that video is very nice, it gives you a good idea of what the GTO is capable of - it gets faster once it's in 2nd gear or above.
As far as handling goes, the GTO sure has a lot of grip. But compared with the STi, it loses in terms of agility, response, balance, and steering feel. What that means is, the GTO might do well on a track, but it will get nervous once you drive it on bumpier roads. So what I think is, it's obvious that the Corvette has better handling than the GTO, and I think no one would argue that the STi handles as well, if not better than the Corvette. So I would rate the handling of the STi above GTO's.
PS. Just found out that the 400hp GTO should do 0-60 in 4.8 sec.
03-13-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
I got those numbers from C&D: http://www.caranddriver.com/roadtest...gto-page4.html
It's the 350hp GTO with 6spd manual. I guess 14 sec seems slow but then the GTO is pretty heavy - 3800lbs. May be there are other factors that could make it run slower than usual. For example, that issue of C&D was in december, so I assumed they tested it in November or December, and the ground may be too cold for a good launch. But on the other hand, colder weather might help the engine run better...so..I don't know.
And that video is very nice, it gives you a good idea of what the GTO is capable of - it gets faster once it's in 2nd gear or above.
As far as handling goes, the GTO sure has a lot of grip. But compared with the STi, it loses in terms of agility, response, balance, and steering feel. What that means is, the GTO might do well on a track, but it will get nervous once you drive it on bumpier roads. So what I think is, it's obvious that the Corvette has better handling than the GTO, and I think no one would argue that the STi handles as well, if not better than the Corvette. So I would rate the handling of the STi above GTO's.
PS. Just found out that the 400hp GTO should do 0-60 in 4.8 sec.
It's the 350hp GTO with 6spd manual. I guess 14 sec seems slow but then the GTO is pretty heavy - 3800lbs. May be there are other factors that could make it run slower than usual. For example, that issue of C&D was in december, so I assumed they tested it in November or December, and the ground may be too cold for a good launch. But on the other hand, colder weather might help the engine run better...so..I don't know.
And that video is very nice, it gives you a good idea of what the GTO is capable of - it gets faster once it's in 2nd gear or above.
As far as handling goes, the GTO sure has a lot of grip. But compared with the STi, it loses in terms of agility, response, balance, and steering feel. What that means is, the GTO might do well on a track, but it will get nervous once you drive it on bumpier roads. So what I think is, it's obvious that the Corvette has better handling than the GTO, and I think no one would argue that the STi handles as well, if not better than the Corvette. So I would rate the handling of the STi above GTO's.
PS. Just found out that the 400hp GTO should do 0-60 in 4.8 sec.
Great Info. Thanks a BUNCH!
03-13-2007, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Sprtan-117
Great Info. Thanks a BUNCH!
03-14-2007, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by type-s09
my buddy with a CL 6 speed busted a 6.0 GTO 6 speed's ass one night from a dig...
03-15-2007, 01:16 PM
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It's pretty easy to find the real answers you are looking for if you look...
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106613
LS2 Stock Classes:
1) NYTIGER 12.920 @ 109.40 MPH
2) Boilermaker GTO 12.9299 @ 106.89 MPH
3) 05torridred60 12.971 @ 108 MPH - SAP mufflers
4) jumbojet 12.974 @ 108.08 MPH
5) BlackSheep 12.98 @ 108 MPH
6) GTOboss 13.007 @ 108.52mph
7) KYGTO 13.035 @ 108.96 MPH
8) Judgethis05 13.036 @ 108.72
9) hookmechanic 13.074 @ 106.76 MPH
10) SloNlo 13.086 @ 108.75 MPH
11) TheCamel 13.112 @ 108.49 MPH
12) BadGTO 13.14 @ 104.99 MPH
13) Lord Vador 13.132 @ 108.85 MPH
14) Helicoprion 13.20@106.9
15) Joey D 13.236 @ 104.79 MPH
LS1 Stock classes:
1) H82BSLOGTO 13.09 @ 105.00
2) ls1gto 13.10 @ 107.3 MPH
3) TRU GTO 13.136 @ 105.76 MPH
4) GTwhoa 13.15 @ 105.35 MPH
5) nutiger 13.245 @ 104.86 MPH
6) GTONEWB 13.248 105.99 MPH
7) slammin86 13.27 @ 105.46 MPH
8) nikivee 13.3 @ 104.00 MPH
9) 1meangoat 13.307 @ 104.61 MPH
10) Nmbr1GMfan 13.390 @ 104.54 MPH
11) win98nogood 13.393 @ 105.10 MPH
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106613
LS2 Stock Classes:
1) NYTIGER 12.920 @ 109.40 MPH
2) Boilermaker GTO 12.9299 @ 106.89 MPH
3) 05torridred60 12.971 @ 108 MPH - SAP mufflers
4) jumbojet 12.974 @ 108.08 MPH
5) BlackSheep 12.98 @ 108 MPH
6) GTOboss 13.007 @ 108.52mph
7) KYGTO 13.035 @ 108.96 MPH
8) Judgethis05 13.036 @ 108.72
9) hookmechanic 13.074 @ 106.76 MPH
10) SloNlo 13.086 @ 108.75 MPH
11) TheCamel 13.112 @ 108.49 MPH
12) BadGTO 13.14 @ 104.99 MPH
13) Lord Vador 13.132 @ 108.85 MPH
14) Helicoprion 13.20@106.9
15) Joey D 13.236 @ 104.79 MPH
LS1 Stock classes:
1) H82BSLOGTO 13.09 @ 105.00
2) ls1gto 13.10 @ 107.3 MPH
3) TRU GTO 13.136 @ 105.76 MPH
4) GTwhoa 13.15 @ 105.35 MPH
5) nutiger 13.245 @ 104.86 MPH
6) GTONEWB 13.248 105.99 MPH
7) slammin86 13.27 @ 105.46 MPH
8) nikivee 13.3 @ 104.00 MPH
9) 1meangoat 13.307 @ 104.61 MPH
10) Nmbr1GMfan 13.390 @ 104.54 MPH
11) win98nogood 13.393 @ 105.10 MPH
03-15-2007, 08:57 PM
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03-16-2007, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
I can't believe the LS2 GTO isn't that much faster than the LS1 GTO! I thought on average, the difference should be more than 0.3 second at least.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
1. LS2 computer is significantly more intrusive than LS1.
2. Torque management exists on both 6-speed and Auto LS2 cars. Only Ls1 automatics have torque management in the computer.
3. Tire width never changed between the LS1's and LS2's. Traction is quite bad from the beginning trying to get 375 lb/ft of torque (LS1) and 400 lb/ft of torque (LS2) through 245mm tires.
Basically, both LS1 and LS2 Goats are strong runners and very similar performance wise. They are difficult to drive correctly though.
03-16-2007, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Roadmaster
The two are very close in terms of performance in a bone stock OEM application.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
1. LS2 computer is significantly more intrusive than LS1.
2. Torque management exists on both 6-speed and Auto LS2 cars. Only Ls1 automatics have torque management in the computer.
3. Tire width never changed between the LS1's and LS2's. Traction is quite bad from the beginning trying to get 375 lb/ft of torque (LS1) and 400 lb/ft of torque (LS2) through 245mm tires.
Basically, both LS1 and LS2 Goats are strong runners and very similar performance wise. They are difficult to drive correctly though.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
1. LS2 computer is significantly more intrusive than LS1.
2. Torque management exists on both 6-speed and Auto LS2 cars. Only Ls1 automatics have torque management in the computer.
3. Tire width never changed between the LS1's and LS2's. Traction is quite bad from the beginning trying to get 375 lb/ft of torque (LS1) and 400 lb/ft of torque (LS2) through 245mm tires.
Basically, both LS1 and LS2 Goats are strong runners and very similar performance wise. They are difficult to drive correctly though.
03-17-2007, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
Now that explains everything, thanks roadmaster! So in other words, from a roll, the LS2 GTO should be quite a bit faster than the LS1 GTO? Also, what's the purpose of the torque management system? To prevent transmission damage? Or prevent too much wheelspin? Anyways, accorinding to those numbers, a 1/4 mile race between a STi and a Japanese EVO must be very close.
Basically, there is data within the PCM for reduced performance (timing, throttle blade angle, etc) during certain driving conditions. Stomp on an OEM Stock GM V8 automatic car and you will basically feel the car bog off the line and right around 3,000rpm will come to life. Then, about 100rpm before the shift, the PCM and Transmission Control Module will pull timming and throttle in order to execute the shift.
In 2005 this function found its way into the 6-speed cars as well. To put it bluntly, it sucks. Launch off idle and even with 400 lb/ft going through 245mm tires, you will bog. Around 3,400 you'll noticed things start to change and you've got full power. The verdict is still out on whether or not TM (Torque Management) exists between shifts for 6-speed cars.
Yes, it is a way to save the transmission. Remember, until recently, GM has used a very standard 4L60, 4L65 and 4L70 transmission that can't handle the power on a day in day out basis. They are strong, but beat on them a lot and you will nuke certain components very fast (especially in the very large applications like trucks).
The new GM 6-speed is showing promise as being able to hold much more torque, but the program still exists. Only time and the aftermarket will unlock the computer in the transmission.
03-17-2007, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Roadmaster
Torque management started to show up in the PCM around 1996 for GM Automatics. It really came on strong in early 2000 especially with the introduction of electronic throttle control.
Basically, there is data within the PCM for reduced performance (timing, throttle blade angle, etc) during certain driving conditions. Stomp on an OEM Stock GM V8 automatic car and you will basically feel the car bog off the line and right around 3,000rpm will come to life. Then, about 100rpm before the shift, the PCM and Transmission Control Module will pull timming and throttle in order to execute the shift.
In 2005 this function found its way into the 6-speed cars as well. To put it bluntly, it sucks. Launch off idle and even with 400 lb/ft going through 245mm tires, you will bog. Around 3,400 you'll noticed things start to change and you've got full power. The verdict is still out on whether or not TM (Torque Management) exists between shifts for 6-speed cars.
Yes, it is a way to save the transmission. Remember, until recently, GM has used a very standard 4L60, 4L65 and 4L70 transmission that can't handle the power on a day in day out basis. They are strong, but beat on them a lot and you will nuke certain components very fast (especially in the very large applications like trucks).
The new GM 6-speed is showing promise as being able to hold much more torque, but the program still exists. Only time and the aftermarket will unlock the computer in the transmission.
Basically, there is data within the PCM for reduced performance (timing, throttle blade angle, etc) during certain driving conditions. Stomp on an OEM Stock GM V8 automatic car and you will basically feel the car bog off the line and right around 3,000rpm will come to life. Then, about 100rpm before the shift, the PCM and Transmission Control Module will pull timming and throttle in order to execute the shift.
In 2005 this function found its way into the 6-speed cars as well. To put it bluntly, it sucks. Launch off idle and even with 400 lb/ft going through 245mm tires, you will bog. Around 3,400 you'll noticed things start to change and you've got full power. The verdict is still out on whether or not TM (Torque Management) exists between shifts for 6-speed cars.
Yes, it is a way to save the transmission. Remember, until recently, GM has used a very standard 4L60, 4L65 and 4L70 transmission that can't handle the power on a day in day out basis. They are strong, but beat on them a lot and you will nuke certain components very fast (especially in the very large applications like trucks).
The new GM 6-speed is showing promise as being able to hold much more torque, but the program still exists. Only time and the aftermarket will unlock the computer in the transmission.
03-19-2007, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
I agree, that sucks, it takes away the fun of having that much low end torque I think. But then, I would rather to have that program, then to damage the transmission. Afterall, it's easier to make a program to limit output than to design and produce a much stronger transmission.
The transmissions themselves can handle the power --- just not up to the now 100k mile warranty mark with constant beating.
Remove all of the parameters and you end up with one hell of a strong car. A basic tuned, automatic with a stall and radials will run 12.50's reletively easily for about $1,000 in actual parts.
The new GM 6L80 is quite the interesting transmission and is proving to be very strong. Once the aftermarket takes hold I'm certain we will start seeing swaps that can handle 800 lb/ft reletively easily.
03-19-2007, 11:08 AM
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LS2's are absolute beasts with basic bolt-on's and with a charger will destroy even a well modded evo. there is absolutely no replacement for displacement the sky's the limit with these muscle cars. I've seen vids of some 2000hp big blocks, nuts!
03-19-2007, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Roadmaster
I'm almost certain most automotive builders are using this type of function on their automatic vehicles. With GM, it is just easier to dig into the computer and remove (or basically zero out) all of the data.
The transmissions themselves can handle the power --- just not up to the now 100k mile warranty mark with constant beating.
Remove all of the parameters and you end up with one hell of a strong car. A basic tuned, automatic with a stall and radials will run 12.50's reletively easily for about $1,000 in actual parts.
The new GM 6L80 is quite the interesting transmission and is proving to be very strong. Once the aftermarket takes hold I'm certain we will start seeing swaps that can handle 800 lb/ft reletively easily.
The transmissions themselves can handle the power --- just not up to the now 100k mile warranty mark with constant beating.
Remove all of the parameters and you end up with one hell of a strong car. A basic tuned, automatic with a stall and radials will run 12.50's reletively easily for about $1,000 in actual parts.
The new GM 6L80 is quite the interesting transmission and is proving to be very strong. Once the aftermarket takes hold I'm certain we will start seeing swaps that can handle 800 lb/ft reletively easily.
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