terse

anyone in the LA know where to buy this..I Went to like...3 or 4 dealerships and they only have the regular GM Synchromesh...no friction modified...

thanks..

I also tried GMDirect, but my credit card won't go through because my billing address is a po box...and i don't want to deal with emailing them and stuff...

SodaLuvr

I'd take Amsoil MTF over the GMSFM fluid.

It meets the specs of the GMSFM standard, but more importantly, is a direct replacement for Honda MTF.

Plus, it is less expensive and easier to obtain.

Michael

Road Rage

I say again - MW:

1) GMS FM is a product designed for a specific application, and has specific base and add pack chemistry. Unless you can demonstrate that Amsoil's product, designed to be more universal, has the same as GMS FM, I do not understand how one can say they are equivalent

2) Anecdotal experiences: Who has any for the Amsoil product in Honda trannies? I have seen none. There is plenty of support on the S2000 and TL 3G forums that demonstrate the great results obtained with GMS FM in Honda boxes.

3) There are a bunch of GM dealers near me that have GMS FM. Amsoil is harder to obtain for most people, but that will vary by area and the ability of people to do their own legwork. Having to post how to find a standard GM part is pretty lazy, IMO. There is also the ability order any GM part. I got a case of GMS FM wholesale from my local Chevy dealer in 24 hours after ordering it. What's the big deal with peeps?

I like and admire many Amsoil products, even though I generally have not much respect for their dealers.

But until I see empiric evidence (like a VOA) of Amsoil's product, and more importantly, try it and find it to perform better in my S2000, I am reserving the endorsement you have given it.

Just for reminders, here are fluids I have tried in S2000, and a few TL's:

Honda Genuine MTF
Red Line MTL
Red Line MT-90
GMS
GMS FM
Pennzoil Syncromesh
BG Products


If Amsoil or someone else wants to send me some Amsoil to analyze and use, I will: Having done a lot of wrenching and testing, I am loathe to do another drain refill unless there is some evidence it is worth my while.

Road Rage

Here is a very good article that goes into detail about how essential the compatibility of addtives, lubricity, etc play in the correct function of a manual tranny.

http://www.mosesludel.com/news/index...mid=35&catid=1

Note, the specific case mentions where an owner went to an exotic synthetic, and his shifting went down the tubes - I have even seen cases where the different trannies made by the same mfr (BMW) and its supplier performed well with Red Line in one case, poorly in another. That is why I harp on the anecdotal experiences - trannies are all about feel, not some numbers on a page. Given adequate basic numbers, it is the combination of base fluid lubricity, and the exact timing of the synchro action, which is mostly determined by the additive colloids. If one hits upon the right combo, there is magic.

My experiences verify this. On paper, Red Line's MTL looks like "the best". It has an exotic base oil, full synthetic, proper viscosity, and has a promising COF (coefficient of friction) profile. But in the S2000, its performance was no better than the Honda Genuine MTF. It probably would last longer, but since this box has about the best shifting in the world, "feel" is paramount to confidence on the track, or when speed shifting under any circumstances. RL MTL just did not cut it.

I was disappointed. One of the S2000 "gear heads" with very solid wrenching credentials, and a lot of track time, pointed me to GMS FM. I got the engineering info from GM, in my capacity as an auto (and audio) journalist (hobby). The basic engineering of the lube looked great - I have posted it - a solid GIII base stock with esters added.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the GMS FM was well digested by the S2000 box.

I have done 3 3G TL 6MT's, and no one has complained yet.

I am not saying Amsoil's product is not good - it may be the best for all we know. There just is no empiric or anecdotal evidence yet. The jury is out.

RR.

TL-Rocket

While we're on the subject of GMS-FM, I'm wondering if anyone has a report or news on the long term effect of using GMS-FM in an Acura TL 6MT tranny? I've got a case of GMS-FM fluid sitting on my garage floor and I'm just about ready to try it in my TL 6MT, but I have little concern about long term wear since it does have a lower viscosity as far as lubricity is concerned.

Would RoadRage or MW care to reply to this?

Thanx
TL-Rocket

SodaLuvr

RR,
Keep in mind that if you're 6MT fails under the GMSFM fluid you are basically done...if you are using Amsoil MTF at least you can go after Amsoil, as Amsoil recommends that fluid for Honda MTF apps.

The main reason why I'm giving this product my endorsement is because of its ease of avaliability, price, and a guarantee to work in Honda MTF applications.

If you're so concerned about a fluid being "peanut buttered" across the spectrum, then go get a fluid that is built specifically for the Honda MTF app, which is Specialty Formulations MTL-P, blended in an Amber color.

RR, no offense intended, since you're so concerned about the performance about certain fluids for the Honda MTF, go give a try in your S2000 then.

No offense intended,
Michael

SodaLuvr

It should be fine, but since you're using an unapproved fluid, I'd highly suggest draining it out after 15K and taking a sample for analysis.

Michael

terse

so nobody knows where to get some in the LA area?

JackSprat01

Michael, I think everyone on the board now knows you recommend the new juice of the day over GMSFM and frankly, it becomes tiring. This from the person who calls Lubrication Engineers "snake oil." Yes, you can read labels and make phone calls but you have no practical experience with this subject at all and this is NOT what the thread owner is soliciting. Yes, you've been helpful in the past to many of us but this doesn't give you the clout to hijack every lubrication thread with your repeated nagging recommendations of a different product other than what is trying to be discussed. Has one single person on the board taken your advice and switched to the Amsoil MTF? Your aggressively contrary input would be more appropriate in threads where people ask for help COMPARING different products. I hope you'll take this the right way and go back to helping people the way you used to rather than nagging them.

Road Rage

I could of sworn the poster (terse) asked a specific question, and that subsequent thread posters asked for my opinion on the product in question - so how do we yet again get into a "use this, not that" situation?

terse: Any Chevy or GM dealer should, or can easily source, this product. Make sure you use the GM part no, and do not accept the GMS as "the same thing". I just went to my Chevy dealer, ordered a case of 6 quarts, and they had it the next day. Los Angeles is a big car town - I am sure a few calls to GM dealers would get the job done. Look for one that sold a lot of S10's or Jimmies - they have the NV1500 tranny GMSFM was developed for.

tl-Rocket: There is plenty of real-world experience with GMS-FM, and none of it is negative. Even with the carbon fibrous coated synchronizers of the 2004+ S2000 tranny. As to MW's concern about warranty, I think it is a bit disingenuous and, as JS01 more directly states than I would, MW's points are are bit argumentative to the point of being painful. I say a bit disingenuous, because I cannot recall ever in my 40 years of owning cars having a dealer perform an analysis of a fluid that even remotely looked like the OEM fluid, and even if they did, no analysis would be a smoking gun that would indict GMS FM as the proximate cause of a tranny issue. It is amber, has no sulfur color or smell, and is close enough to the physical props of HG MTF to be all but indistinguishable.

But let's assume worst-case; my tranny fails, and Honda somehow magically identifies GMS FM, and does not honor my warranty - I can live with that. Amsoil may claim it will cover any loss, but there are claims, and there are claims paid. I have several times asked Amsoil to provide info on how many times and how much money it has paid where a mfr has not covered a warranty claim because an "unapproved fluid" has been used - but they have never provided me case one - you would think they would be proud of that info! But perhaps there is another reason.

I even asked if they could provide one case, checking with the individual first to ensure no compromise of anonymity - I got a big snore on that one.

And I was even a dealer, then a preferred customer, and an automotive journalist with eng'g credentials to boot - not some snoopy lightweight. Hmm.

It is a crap shoot either way, and irrelevant to me anyway. If I pl;ay, I will pay. The deceitful among us will say "just mix in some mateal to some HG MTF and out it int he tranny". That would certainly work, but I do not play in the fraud space - never have.

Michael, we all know you like Amsoil MTF, but you must admit you do seem to hijack every thread that specifically asks about GMS FM - this is not to me a competition, because if it has come to that, I surrender, and you win. If that will allow me to post in peace to a direct inquiry, I will happily surrender. I am and never was offended by any differing opinion - just the circumstances in this case.

And you seem to conveniently ignore several pertintent questions i have asked on this topic, besides the detailed technical analysis and anecdotal opinions I have already shared:

1) Where is the emprirical and anecdotal exoperience with Amsoil MTF in the TL or S2000? There is plenty of empirical and ancecdotal experience with GMS FM. Amsoil MTF is just as "unapproved" as GMS FM, by the way.

2) How can Amsoil simultaneously meet the specs of all the various GM and Chrysler manual tranny fluids? This is just plain counter-intuitive.

3) GM went to the trouble of identifying the needs of the various trannies it offers (The original Syncromesh for the Getrag, Dexron III for the TTC T-56, GMS FM for the New Venture 1500 in their light trucks, and so forth). I think it is to GM's credit, and of course their own warranty claim benefit, that they went to this trouble and expense - and if the fluids are not as cheap as Amsoil's in some cases, so what? Economic scales of economy benefit Amsoil's "universal" fluid approach, whether the end user benefits or not. Like All-Season tires, "one size fits all" fluids may just guarantee mediocrity in all conditions - no one knows, esp in this case. (I do admit that Amsoil's ATF comes pretty close to universal, but guess what? It performed poorly in the TTC T-56 in the Cobra - with its CF backed blocking rings, where Amsoil's high lubricity caused scoring in the tear-down I personally participated in.

4) Is anyone actually using Amsoil MTF? Where's the beef - er - the weight of public experience, let alone the weight of real-wrodl experience in thye specific trannies of our cars?

5) As to Specialty Formulations - they may make the best product in the world, and I will stay in "positive thinking mode" and completely accept that one of their products was specifically formulated to meet the HG MTF spec. But what's wrong with this picture? Right! Not everyone is happy with HG MTF's performance in the TL, and/or the S2000! These are quite different tranny designs, and again, Honda seems to have gone to an outside supplier to provide the easy solution - one fluid fits all, one fluid to stock, one less fluid for the stockmen and service techs to get right - I mean wrong? (This has many benefits, but does not a great tranny fluid make - and I have a PM from several folks who had VTM-4 fluid installed in the diffs of their S2000's, damaging them, because the techs got their diff fluids confused).

6) Shift "feel" counts a lot with me, and obviously by the users and questioners - to others as well. Shift feel allows confidence in power shifts, or high RPM downshifts, heel and toe track practices, etc. While GMS FM is fortmulated very well, even if it were to post a dreadful UOA in terms of shear, etc, I might still use it - because for my purposes, feel outweighs anything else. But I hasten to add that both a "paper analysis" (which I believe I was the 1st to post) and the UOA I had done show only good things. Like HG MTF, GMSFM is essentially a fortified light gear/engine oil. It is made of GIII base stocks, esters, and of course, its unique add pack. Nothing cheap or shabby - nor is its cost.

Again I say, I hope for the last time - GMS FM has specific chemistry, different from all other tranny fluids GM has in its catalog, having been developed by GM and its OE supplier to meet the needs of one (1) tranny - the NV1500. The fact that it seems to mate very well with certain Honda boxes is a happy coincidience - and one not predicated on "looks good on paper" (even though it does), or "claims to meet Honda MTF spec". Nearly any gear oil, like nearly any quality engine oil in engines, will get the job done. We all accept that.

What some of us will not accept is mediocre shift feel. Some of us have been on a long journey, and done lots of work, to source a better mousetrap.

SodaLuvr

Fine Jack,
I'll stay out of this.

I'm sounding like Tooslick vs. Doug Hillary on BITOG regarding the Mobil 1 0w-40 issue.

Michael

JackSprat01

Michael, thank you, I'm glad you took it the right way, I think you know where I'm coming from. It's like if I were to jump in on every lube post and said "NO NO NO, what you REALLY want to use is LE 10w-30!" Perhaps you'd find that a little annoying? lol

Anyway, for the poster, armed with the part number you should be fine in LA. I'd just call ahead to weed out the morons first. We've had folks on the east coast with similar trouble finding the stuff but eventually, you get the right person and get the right stuff.

Although RR makes many excellent points, I think the best one regards the "feel" of how this stuff works. This stuff could shear down to pig snot and I'd still use it. If it only lasted 10k miles, I'd still use it. It's so good, I'm more than willing to take the miniscule risk of voiding the warranty. It's just plain worth it.

SodaLuvr

OFFTOPIC:

Besides, Tooslick just poured some Amsoil 0w-40 in his 2002 TT Quattro and will pull a sample at 3K to "tweak" the Australian Doug Hillary.

Michael

Road Rage

Thanks, MW - appreciate your being a stand-up guy on this one.

Lest anyone misunderstand - neither I nor JS01 is trying to stifle varied opinions, or be unwilling to compete on the "field of ideas". No way - this is just a specific situation where there was one too many "methinks he doth protest too much", and that salient points were being ignored in the fight to be right. I would much rather that info of a broad nature be broadly shared, with rightnes or wrongness determined by the readers.

Props to MW, and for JS01 who acted "righteouwsly indignant" in my behalf.