Road Rage

As a longtime proponent of GMS-FM, and having posted in detail on its componentry and performance, you know where I stand on this.

GMS-FM is amber. But it is possible that chemical agents, called tracers, might be added by Honda to identify their MTF.

However, as I have posted many times, I think the likelihood of their doing an analysis is so slight, as to be of no concern, certainly to me. I have a 5AT, but I use the GMS-FM in the S2000, and will continue to do so, even if it were to mean the tranny warranty were "voided". Missing a shift or having a crunch can do damage to the tranny and/or the engine, and when I am driving hard, the improvement in shift quality and precision is worth any risk.

BTW, I repeat again: a warranty can only be voided in writing - they may deny the repair, but cannot void the general new car warranty. I would just sue them in small claims court, and have myself declared as an "expert", since I have done so on behalf of others in oil-related lawsuits. BTW, we have never lost.

Amsoil's MTF claims to be equivalent to both Honda MTF AND GMS-FM, which I question since how can one fluid be equivalent to specifically formulated products like GMS-FM, which was designed for the NV 1500 transmission used in GM's light trucks? But I am sure it is a good product, but I want GREAT, not Good, or I would never have bothered with seeking an alternative to Honda MTF in the first place. Plus, with the Amsoil, the issue of tracers remains.

I could not find one case where someone on the S2000 board at S2KI.COM had any warranty trouble with using GMS-FM - and several of the techs at a Honda dealer uses and recommends it for his car.

Look, if you are a fraidy-cat, stick with the Honda junk, but replace it annually - it really loses its grade stability fast - often at <15k. Endless posts of "should or shouldn't I?" always end up in the same place: owner choice.

If you have to agonize over the decision, do not do it. If you are a true gearhead, show some balls. What seems inarguable is that GMS-FM offers a noticeable improvement in shift quality in both the 6MT and the Honda S2000.

Decide, act, and live with the consequences. And while I do not believe in defrauding, Honda's clearly selfish attitude (or is it the dealer's?) leads me to consider that if their precious tranny starts to fail within the 4Y/50K warranty period, I would likely want to flush out any wear metals in the case with a cheap fluid like, well....Honda MTF....before going to the dealer for an analysis.

dooky211

iTrader: (1)

Its also been a week since i changed my fluid and my 3rd gear problem is gone... Used regular Honda MTF..

SouthernBoy

Hey there Road Rage. I agree with all of your points and your stance on this discussion, especially your comments about when the owner is not too sure of going this route. After all, it's their car.

You know, there is very little to go wrong in a manual transmission.. you almost have to try to destroy them. There are no pumps or vanes or torque converters or wet disk clutch packs. They are really rather simple devices. Which is why they tend to last so long and work so well.

A high quality product is not going to hurt them. It would not be in Honda's best interests to have installed synchronizer cones or bearings or gears of such soft or weak metal that their sole hope for longevity lies with the fluid installed in the gearbox. At least, I would hope as much.

mickey3c

I find it amusing the people need a GM product to make the superior acura product perform better.

Brettg

Who said its superior?
Its a tarted up honda accord.

The TL is not an expensive car.
I dont know what the s2000 costs, but many owners of those cars use the GM
stuff also.

I dont think there are any other full size luxury sedans with manual transmissions
other than maybe the bmw 5 series (do they come in a manual?) and I would bet
they use the GM stuff if they have a manual transmission.

OK, name a GM product for around the same price that has 270 hp, handles well,
has the features the TL has, has 4 doors, seats 4/5 in comfort, is not filled with cheap feeling/looking plastic parts, gets 32 mpg on the hiway or better and
has a quiet ride.

What GM product do you like better than the TL???
Does it have a manual transmission?

GM seems to have come up with a lube that does very well with the syncros, so
why not use it?

I bet ANY car with a manual trans works better with the GM mtffm.

Brett

Hybrid

You may have missed the point of my post slightly. I agree that things CAN be proven if necessary, and I agree that the law says what you say, but the reality of it is that if the service dept. thinks there is something wrong (such as the wrong fluid), and they want to deny a warranty claim because of it, all they have to do in REALITY is tell the customer that the claim is denied and give them their car keys back. Maybe they just violated the law, but so what? It's now the customer's problem. The customer would then have to get a lawyer or go to small claims court. There, Honda just might win easily, if everyone agrees the "wrong" fluid was used, for example. Hey, the manual says to use the Honda stuff, and anything else just might cause damage. (The manual seems to imply that for most fluids). The car owner would really have to push things to win. I have never heard of a dealer having a lab do any sort of analysis or "proof" where they deny a warranty claim. Generally, it could be more expensive than the repair. (Of course, the mfgr. might have lots of analysis work done in cases where their are failures of parts in lots of cars, but this is a different issue).

And, again, given all that, I wouldn't have any problem putting in a different transmission oil. The chance of a problem during the warranty period is small. Plus, even if there is a problem, the dealer will probably cover it under warranty anyway.

mlpnya

i have an 05 TL with 6MT (23k miles) and have had some trouble with third as well.

what has happened to me on an ever increasing basis is this...
i get about half way into third gear and it seems like i could force it in but i usually back out and then it will usually drop right in. it probably happens maybe 1 out of 10 times.

is this similar to problems anyone else has had? is it more of a consistent problem?

I do not think my problem is syncro related, seems mechanical in the linkage.

went to the dealer today, of course they acted as if they never heard of the problem and of course it did not do it when we went for a ride.

thanks!
mlpnya

soopa

1900 miles on my 6MT and with the cold weather, it's nearly impossible to shift into 2nd or 3rd until it warms up. Noticable grinding into 2nd even with the pedal fully depressed.

Ordered a 6-pack of GMSFM today - Thanks Road Rage!

Xpditor

Soopa.... one reason I ended up with a 5AT is that the 6MT I drove on a demo had a slight grind going into 2nd- even slow shifting.

The salesman was embarrassed and put the car right in the shop saying that it shouldn't do that.

I'm thinking it might be an adjustment or something. Have you brought it to their attention?

Of course, if you're like me, you probably hate to take your car into the service dept and turn it over to those clowns. I've had mine a year and a half and it has NEVER been back to the dealer since I took delivery. I service it myself.

Then, in your case, it's a long drive to the dealer where you got it.

soopa

Bring my car to Northeast Acura? Yeah right. This GMSFM shit better fix it or I'm just gonna drive it into the ground

kosh2258

This is precisely why I've always been skeptical of AMSOIL claims to having a "universal" anything in their product line outside of the motor oil.

That one size fits all claim just doesn't wash with reality. Sure, their product may hit the centerline of specs for some applications, but it will also definitely end up at the fringe, either high or low, of being in spec for others.

I'm solidly with RR on this. I want the best fit for the application, not a close one.

millerrh

This is exactly the same problem I had and so far the GM stuff has fixed it entirely.

Road Rage

In all fairness and to be consistent with my policy of full disclosure, note that while Mobil's "Universal" ATF was a dismal failure in my 3rd gen Accord, their current "universal" ATF has worked very well in my 5AT in the 3G TL. I have posted in detail on that, and over a year later, my original comments hold true.

That said, I have to agree with your interpretation and understanding of my commnents about the "universal gearbox" fluid issue. Michael Wan and i have been around the block on this onew several times, so i would refer readers to those threads and the ideas exchanged, rather than an endless rehashing here. But note that GM has gone to the trouble of spec'ing very unique manual tranny fluids for very specific applications (GMS-FM for the NV1500, "Syncromesh" for the Getrags, Dex III for the TTC T-56's, and so forth). Logic suggests this was not done just to keep busy - after all, they are busy now trying to stay ahead of some sort of stock implosion, and a bankruptcy procedure.

MW keeps asking me to drain the GMS-FM out of "Khan"'s tranny (my S2000's name since its S/N is 1701), and while I am willing to accept that the Amsoil is a good product, I do not believe in the logic of change for change's sake, taking leaps of faith, and being the guinea pig for something that might compromise the great results I am getting with GMS-FM. Is that faulty reasoning, or am I getting fat and lazy in my dotage?

Why accept ground beef, when there are corn-fed T-Bones to be had?

Road Rage

Very good points - I have often stated that waving the Magnuson-Moss Act at a dealer may make one feel good, but it will not get one's car repaired. Far better to use a good fluid that is not lime-colored, don't do holeshots, and enjoy what the General has brought to the battlefield. Let's not make this one another example of 3G Forum folks mentally masturbating an issue into the outhouse. I mean, we do not want this one to degrade into a "How about them thar Tornado's?" or "I use premium fuel and get 50 MPG!" threads, do we?

RR.

klkitts

This problem sounds identical to what happened on my '05 MT TL - though it has been happening since I drove the car off the lot. Since it only happened infrequently - like you said - maybe 1 in 10 - I wasn't sure what was going on. I told the dealer and they said they'd had 7 other customers report exactly the same thing. The installed something called BG Syncromesh - not sure - I guess this is similar to the GM Synromesh people talk about - and since then it has just worked flawlessly. I am not one that believes in a "Fix in a bottle" - but I swear that it has made a 100% improvement. Will it last forever? I don't know. But it is working perfectly for now.

BTW, in my case it was an Acura dealer that suggested replacing the transmission fluid with this BG Sycromesh - so I am assuming that it will be covered under the warrenty - after all - the Acura autorized dealer where I bought the car installed it - and they were the ones that suggested it and did the work.

I'd strongly suggest letting the dealer know about it and giving them the opportunity to do the right thing.

Good Luck,

Kevin

Road Rage

Your logic is fine, it just so happens that the small wear metals have nothing to do with shift quality in this or any other manual tranny. If it were that simple, thousands of us would have figured this out over the years, and posted to it. Note that I did do a fluid change at 1k miles (I always do), and went initially with Red Line MTL, which proved to offer no better shift quality than the HG MTF, although it no doubt would have provided longer service life. Trannies are like women in some ways - what applies to one seldom applies to another, and when you find one that feels right with the right lubrication, do not screw things up by seeking a solution elsewhere.

klkitts

mlpnya,
Just read the last sentence of your post - that is very disapointing behavior from the dealer. The dealer I used was Chevy Chase Acura in Chevy Chase, MD - maybe you could give them a call and try to get a little background on the problem - and maybe you could use that information in dealing with your dealer.

I hate it when car dealers/mechanics try to you feel like it is you and not the car that has a problem.

Kevin

Road Rage

I am going to respond to several other questions in this post:

1) Regarding the "click" someone experienced after switching to GMS-FM. This has nothing to do with the tranny fluid, and was there before and after you swapped out the fluid. The 6MT has a hydraulic clutch, and the fluid is completely different, and separate, from the tranny fluid. It is actually DOT3 brake fluid.

2) Regarding the BG Syncromesh - it is another aftermarket tranny fluid of the "light gear oil" variety, but is not formulated like GMS-FM. It is closer to GM "Syncromesh", whicxh was designed for the Getrag trannies GM sourced for a while in cars like the Beretta. It may or not work well with the TL, but my reports from the field in the S2000 is that it was no better than HG MTF. Some of BG's claims and products are a bit "over the top" for me, and when i "debated" a local BG distributor on a local radio show about some of their claims, it was embarassing how little he knew about oil-related technology and cars in general, other than top say "throw in a bottle of 44K and see what happens" to every call. It was like Dr. Morbius talking to a conifer seedling.

3) Kevin raises an excellent point about the hypocrisy of some Acura dealers - they warn against using GMS-FM, yet they often hawk BG Products to build profits during a 30k "service". One such product is their MOA (Motor Oil Additive). This is, by my analysis, nthing more than a large amount of many components of oil additives packages already in engine oil, but in MOA it is in massive quantities - nearly 30% by volume!!! Their "expert" I debated on the radio show rambled on that "MOA replenishes (my word - not his - he stumbled about looking for the word until the moderator and I helped him) the additives 'lost' in the engine oil". Well. lost is not quite right, but depleted is. Like all good service pitches, their pitch is based in fact, but then taken to an area where I say they have not proven anything. Yes, MOA replenishes, but so does --- drum roll - an oil change!!!! There is no evidence to support, and much evidence to question, that if a little add pack is good, adding a lot more is better.* In the case of things like detergents, or the polymers which make up VI improvers, or the chemistry of pour point depressants, MORE can be detrimental. And 44K in the formula I analyzed several years ago was a very strong solvent - not one I would slap into any car, with any injector seal.

Anyway, whether they are great products, OK products, or good profit generators aside, you have Honda dealers pitching them, even though the Onwer's Manual warns that they are not needed, and may be detrimental (see section on oil additives). And of course, GMS-FM is so dangerous that it will void your tranny warranty if the bottle is even waved at the car as it drives by. What a crock!!!


*On the other hand, if you want an oil/fuel additive combo with proven safety and efficacy, look at the Lube Control products that our esteemed moderator, MW, has recommended. They work, but having a clear Missionm statement, sound engineering and formulation, and a positive track record on BITOG. But of course, they likely endanger trhe warranty as well.

3PUTT

DO IT!! DO IT!!

I did it as soon as RR recommended it. it made such a big difference. i am thinking of doing the same thing for my S4.

millerrh

"Trannies are like women in some ways - what applies to one seldom applies to another, and when you find one that feels right with the right lubrication, do not screw things up by seeking a solution elsewhere."

Now this is classic.... freakin awesome.

HEK

Today's forecast for MA is 50's..ohhahh, so oil change and tranny fluid change are on schedule, one comment I have to make about the day I picked up the 3 Qts from a local Chevy dealer, these were covered with so much dust that made me think that this product is not of much demand .... , I hope there is no shelf life on these cans ...lol j/k....

SouthernBoy

[QUOTE=Trannies are like women in some ways - what applies to one seldom applies to another, and when you find one that feels right with the right lubrication, do not screw things up by seeking a solution elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Boy the femi-nazis on this site, if there are any, are gonna love you for that one. Be prepared to get slammed.

HEK

getting back the subject on hand, this stuff is the s..hit...wow, I did the oil change both transmission and engine and the car feels better than when I bought it new ...thanks to all that made this possible....GM I wouldn't buy a car from you but keep this miracle oil coming...I'm calling my kid maybe I'll do the change on his Civic....

Road Rage

I had a similar experience, except it was driving the Accord V6 MT. Same basic setup as the 6MT TL. I did not at like the clutch engagement, nor the shift quality. It balked and felt imprecise.

Now, the S2000 will spoil a guy, but nevertheless, all things considered, and for my purposes using the TL as a commuter/family ride with some spunk, I too went with the 5AT. But even if I were to compromise with just one car, I doubt I would go with the 6MT TL, unless i did what i did with my 2002 TL-S: CompTech mods on header, exhaust, springs, roll bars, etc.

The GMS-FM will help with shift quality, but has no effect on the clutch take-up. One cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, so they say.

Off-topic:
BTW, I did a complete change out of the S2000's brake and clutch fluids with Ate "Super Blue" brake fluid. Very good for track temps at VIR, but I still think the best brake/clutch fluid for most folks is Ford's DOT3 - it is just an amazing "conventional" DOT3 fluid, and does not have to be replaced as often as the Ate (every year is best, 2 years at the max). It is also cheap and easy to source. I recall posting in detail on it a while back.

The Ate comes in blue tinted and regular amber color. The hot setup is to alternate, so one knows shen the old fluid has been flushed by the color change. The blue can leave a slight residual stain on the plastic reservoirs according to my buds at S2KI.com.

deandorsey

link
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ight=Ford+DOT3

-----------------

after 2 changes w/ Syncromesh, i tried the amsoil mtf this last change... the only diff i notice is an occasional notchiness going into 2nd when the tranny is cold... only lasts for about 3 min--

Tripnbeats

GM ALL THE WAY THE CAR IS BETTER THAN NEW!!!! by the way Id like to know who figured out that the gm syncro mesh is the best one to use.... i know that the integra hooker uppers use a different synchromesh fluid....... y not use that one?? when i went to gm i realized the guy pulled out the one he uses on his integra and I said eehhh wrong one and he was about to argue with me I was like dude i know this is the wrong one and he looked it up on the forum and was confused.

avs007

Except the MMA is very explicit about tie-ins. It says it is prohibited to require parts/services branded by the manufacturer to maintain warranty. (ie, you must use Honda Brand oil to maintain your warranty) I'm sure any unbiased arbitor that knows anything at all wouldn't overlook these two things and allow Honda to "easily" win.

In order for Honda to get away with requiring Honda Brand Oil, I'm pretty sure they are going to have to prove there is something in their oil that is needed, and prove that a lack of this is detrimental to the engine/tranny. Otherwise, they could just say you need to use Honda brand gasoline too.