millerrh

Like many of you with 6MT, I have the problem where I fight it to go into 3rd gear from time to time. Everyone on this board swears by the GM Syncromesh fluid, but I verified with Acura that it would indeed void your transmission warranty.

So my question to you guys -- is it worth it? Should I switch fluids anyway, running this risk? I REALLY want my car to shift right...this third gear thing irritates the hell out of me.

Maybe the answer is switch it and if I need to take the car back for warranty work, change out the fluid with Honda MTF.

scrb09

someone recently posted a thread which had the same dilemma as yours. They change out the fluid with Honda MTF and were claiming that the fight to go into 3rd gear was resolved...I guess since you know that it will void the warranty ....you should just try doing a drain/refill with Honda MTF....if it does not solve your issue then risk it with GM sync....

KilroyR1

I don't know if new Honda MTF makes a difference; however, I know GMSM-FM makes a big difference. My cars shifts much better now.

millerrh

KilroyR1, are you not worried about the warranty issue? It would be a no brainer if it weren't for that.

I guess if this shifting thing really gets fixed by new fluid, there's a good chance that nothing will happen to my transmission that would require it to be fixed under warranty anyway. I've had 1 Honda and 2 Acuras over the last 10 years and I've never had a warranty issue that happened after 10,000 miles. Seems like once you get the kinks worked out, these cars are tough as nails.

cM3go

They are BSing you, changing the fluid does not void the warranty.

Thats like saying if I don't put in the oil that Honda/Acura puts in my car it will void the warranty, or brake fluid or any fluid for that matter.

ImaTLguy

I've got 600 miles on the Amsoil MTF, which happens to be the same color as the Honda MTF - which is to say the
color of motor oil - and has fixed the shifting problem.

They claim its a direct replacement for Honda, and only $7/quart. The GM stuff is quite a bit more. Personally, the
GM stuff is only partial synthetic. I'd rather go with the full 100% synthetic product.

Not in the least bit worried about any warranty issues.


https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx

millerrh

It's not entirely BS. For instance -- If I were to replace it with motor oil and something were to break down in my transmission, they would probably say that the improper fluid was used and caused the problem. Obviously the GMSM-FM is better than motor oil, but the same thing could be said for it if a problem were to occur.

ImaTLguy

Was only stating the color of motor oil, Amsoil, and Honda MTF are all the same. Not sure what color the GM stuff is.

Also, the Amsoil stuff is a direct replacement spec for the GM part# on the fluid.

Brettg

I just replaced the gm stuff in my car.

The car went about 5000 miles on the honda fluid, and at about 3000
miles the slight problem with 3rd gear started.
The GM stuff totaly eliminated the problem.

I was wondering if there was any additional wear on things from the GM
stuff, so after about 800 miles, I just changed it again.

I can say the stuff that came out looked exactly like the new stuff that
went in, new stuff looks like slightly used motor oil.

Careful inspection of the clean drain pan had NO sort of sediment or chunks
in the trans fluid.

So I have not got any sort of wear metal in the trans after running the gm
stuff for 800 miles or more, some of it was hard driving, lots of hiway
miles, many up and down hills on twisty roads.

The S2000 guys run, and have been running the GM stuff in their
honda transmissions without problems, and the total lack
of any sort of wear indication in my fluid gives me confidence the
GM stuff is fine.

Brett

djskyy

I don't think there's anything wrong with using GM Syncro....I've been using it in almost every car I own.....from NSX to G35 Coupe 6MT to EVO MR....shifts wonderfuly....

NBP04TL4ME

I don't have the owners manual in front of me so I don't know what (if?) the recommended service interval is for changing the MTF - but does it need to be changed. I have about 13.8K miles on my 04 and haven't noticed any shifting issues/problems. Prior to my TL I owned an Accord 5 speed for 10 years and never changed the tranny fluid. I'm a little confused/concerned.

Any help or thoughts are appreciated.

Rob

scrb09

One thing to think about is that they will have prove it to you that it was improper fluid that cause it...and if they do then you can go to GM or Amsoil whoever (if they are advertising their fluid as replacement for TL tranny) and ask them to cover the costs...

KilroyR1

To be honest, I think warranties would be more valuable as toilet paper. If I have a gearbox failure with Honda MTF, I'm sure Honda or the dealer will say it's abuse no matter how the car is driven. I doubt I will ever have a problem.

Another issue, just because a gearbox fails with GMSM-FM; that does not mean the GM fluid CAUSED the failure. Honda would have to prove that to deny the warranty claim.

The GM fluid is better than the Honda MTF, hands down. I want the best fluid in my gearbox.

Brettg

I think there is a replacement schedule, I dont know offhand what it is.
Many people dont change the transmission fluid (auto or manaul), the
differential gear lube, or the brake fluid, and dont have problems.
They may not drive a car till 200,000 miles though.

I changed the manual transmission lube to improve the transmission operation.

That and I like to tinker with cars, and on my TL, there is nothing to do,
its new, its clean, and it has no problems.

I wont say my transmission had a problem, I think all transmissions have their
querks at times, I wont even say mine is broken in yet, but the GM stuff
makes it shift much nicer.

Brett

Black_05_TL_6SP

I just changed to the GM MTF fluid, and I had the dealer do it for me!! The Acura service manager had no problem doing it and told me it would not void the warranty! If they are telling that it does, they are lying to you. They just don't want to deal with the problem. Changing the MTF made all the difference in the world, no more fighting it to go into 3rd. If you are having problems with your local Acura dealer, take it to a local Honda dealer. It will save a little bit of money at that.

Hybrid

[QUOTE=KilroyR1]
Another issue, just because a gearbox fails with GMSM-FM; that does not mean the GM fluid CAUSED the failure. Honda would have to prove that to deny the warranty claim.
QUOTE]

That's what some law says, but, in reality, neither Honda nor the customer is going to be able to "prove" anything. (Is either one going to set up lab experiments? Hire experts to do studies? No...) What happens in reality is that the service dept. says the customer is not covered. He appeals to the regional service rep, and the rep. upholds that decision, just because the customer used a fluid that Honda didn't want you to use. Then it's the customer's problem to either get a lawyer or pay for the repair. If the customer takes the lawyer route, arbitration or a judge will likely side with the company, just because Honda clearly recommends it OWN fluid.

Alternatively, it's probably even more likely that the service dept. would never know the fluid wasn't Honda's, or possibly even if they did, they woudn't really care, as they get paid for warranty work by Honda/Acura, and they generally like to keep customers happy.

Given all that, the GM fluid is probably a good choice. The transmission may very well last longer with it, if there's less clashing/grinding.

samkws

honda MTL sucks, period

other than regular MTL, u can replace with 5W-30 motor oil as well, but as for the V6 hondas i am not sure, but this works on the civics and accords

since our TL is a high power V6, it should need sth heavier oil than that

some infiniti G35 6MT owners switched to Motul Gear 300 75W-90 and see excellent improvement from OEM too, but not sure if it's good for honda tranny

HEK

I have no problems with shifting into 3rd ( watch me jinx myself) but have been reading about this topic for a while, I ask for those who made the change to the GM stuff, does this MTF last as long as the OEM and is the viscosity better?, long term I mean what if it breaks down sooner then OEM and causes you to force shift into gears all of a sudden?, will Honda void the warranty as someone mentioned above?.
Has anyone switched to a synthetic fluid approved by Honda??....(I'm calling my dealer later to see which brands they would recommed and post it here).

mbwmn

i'm using Redline synthetic, and noticed a marked improvement in shifting. i suspect any fluid change from what's in the gearbox after 15-20k milees would be an improvement.

regarding warranty:
Acura would need to prove that your choice of fluid (changed at less than 20k miles instead of the 60k as required) contributed to an internal trans failure. how would/could they prove this w/out:
a) sampling and testing the trans fluid from the failed trans and
b) making a call on whether their fluid would/could have prevented the failure had it been left in the trans

this would be the equivelent of Acura proving that an engine bearing failure was the result of using something other than Acura/Honda oil, when the oil was changed at 2500mi intervals...

there are very few Acura techs qualified to make a call as to transmission failure regarding:
-lubricant failure
-component failure
-owner shifting technique/abuse

my guess is that the dealer would just repair the trans under warranty, provided there was no evidence of abuse (scored/damaged clutch plate?).

kosh2258

Shortly after getting my TL I swapped out the tranny factory fill with Redline MTL, based on postings here and other places.

I did it because the shifting quality with the factory fill was stiff and getting into second was difficult at times.

The Redline improved things greatly, the tranny shifted like silk, at first. However, 18 months later and the shifting quality, especially when cold, is pretty much back to where it was with the factory fill.

This tells me a few things.
One is that the tranny fluid does wear and breakdown over time, even a synthetic like Redline. So being a synthetic is no guarantee of anything (that's NOT a slam at AMSOIL, I'll get to that).

I'll be changing my tranny oil to GM-SFM in the spring, two years since the last change. Again, based on commentents I've read on this board and others. And I'll see what the performance of that product is over time in the TL. Based on what I'm experiencing the two year mark is going to be about right for replacement.

Any transmission will shift better with fresh oil assuming that oil's formulation is close to the optimum blend for the design - having a friction coefficient close to the design requirements. So short term experiences aren't of much value.
The issue is how does the oil hold up over time. Does the shift quality remain consistent as time passes? Comments I've read about GM-SFM at other places, when used in Honda transmissions, indicate that it does.
That consistency gives some indication as to how well the oil is holding up in extended use.

My only reservation about AMSOIL as a substitute for Honda MTL is that there's no long term field experience with it in a Honda application.
Sorry, 800 miles doesn't cut it, nor does the experience of one person.
AMSOIL claiming that their MTL is a "replacement" for Honda MTL is a vague statement at best. It might be a perfectly good alternative, but I'm not taking AMSOIL's word for it (just like I don't take ANY companies similar claims on their word any more). It's going to take some field time to convince me. The kind of field time GM-SFM has built up.

Would Honda void the warranty? While the dealership may not know what kind of oil was in the tranny, Honda would.
Unless there was some sort of known problem that was the cause, Honda likely would want the failed parts, or the whole transmission, back for analysis. At that point they'd find out the oil wasn't theirs.
I think if the oil in use was as good, or better, than theirs they probably wouldn't deny the warranty on that basis.
The question is really a monetary one. Is it cheaper for Honda to honor the warranty than risk litigation, not to mention bad publicity and an irrate customer, over the issue of the quality of oil the owner used. I think they'd just pay it and be done, especially if the failure was not due to abuse.

On the other hand, if they had documentation that showed they've had 20 or 30 failures and every one of them had a specific oil in use, and a simliar failure pattern, then they'd be in a position to deny warranty and make it stick.
My point is that they'd probably pay warranty on the first 5 or 10 failures using a particular oil, but after that they'd have enough history built up pointing to the oil as the cause and then they could start denying claims.

This is primarily why I'm not worried about GM-SFM. Nobody using it has, so far anyway, complained about their tranny going boom from using it. And the general consensus is that it works well. So it appears to be a low/no risk alternative with some benefits.

Just my and, as always, take it for what it's worth.

millerrh

Two questions for those that changed the fluid:

1. Did you have to lift the car and keep it level? Or can you do it without lifting? I only have two jackstands. Will that work?

2. Did you replace the washers as the instructions say or just use the old washers?

Brettg

First off, the gm fluid is semi synthetic, and is supposed to last longer than the honda stuff.

What I do is jack the car up on one side, slide under, remove the drain plug,
then lower the car so all the fluid runs out, jack the car back up, replace
drain plug using the old washer, then fill with 2.5 quarts.

I use a hose to get the new stuff in, and do it without removing
anything other than the shield under the car.


Yes, I use jackstands, I dont go under cars without at least 2 supports.
It would be a nasty way to die, getting slowly crushed by your car.....

Brett

klkitts

Hi All,
I've had the 3rd gear MT problem so many have mentioned on my '05 TL with 9000 miles. When I mentioned it to my local Acura dealer they immediately acknowledged that they had heard this before - although they said there was not yet an official Honda/Acura service bulletin about it. They recommended something called "BG Syncromesh" - they replaced the transmission fluid with it - and it seems to be working perfectly now. I have no idea if this is really a permanent fix - but it must surely be better than hearing the gears grind. And since it was Acura dealer recommended/installed - I'm going to assume that they will stand behind their work if something should happen later.

I'd suggest alerting your Acura dealer and giving them the opportunity to correctly address the problem.

Kevin

millerrh

I alerted my Acura dealer and they wouldn't do anything about it because they claimed they couldn't reproduce the problem.

millerrh

Alright, I got some of the Synchromesh FM today. I want to make sure I have all the right tools/equipment to do this.

Here's what I think I need based on some of the other instructions on this board. For those of you who have done it, can you verify or correct if I'm wrong?

1. Jack
2. Funnel (extra long one) or pump
3. Socket set

Am I missing anything else? Don't want to get into the change and realize half way through I don't have everything I need.

Also, is the washer on the drain plug a crush washer or just a normal washer?

Brettg

The job is easy if you have a long 3/8 drive extention, I have one that is about
2 feet long. I put a swivel joint at the end that goes into the fill plug, you push
it in till the little ball catches, like it would on a socket.
I used a pipe on the end of the ratchet handle because the plugs are tight.


A funnel and about 2 foot of hose that fits on the end of the funnel, to get the new stuff in, have 3 quarts of the GM mtf and a drain pan.

To get the pan under the car off, you need a 10mm socket and a 6 inch
extention to get the 2 mounting bolts off.
The pan has some push pin type holders you remove, you can loosen the rear
bolt, remove the front one, and swing the pan out of the way of the drain
plug.

The drain plug is on the front of the trans, and like the fill plug uses the 3/8 drive
directly, no socket needed.

Warm the car up and drive it a bit before draining the fluid to get the dirt in suspension.

You can jack up the front of the car from any handy side, just lower it while
the fluid drains so all the old fluid comes out.

The washers on the drain and fill plugs are alluminum, and I just reused
mine without problems.
If the fill plug washer comes off the trans, you can use a bit of sticky sealant
to hold it on the plug as you refit it on the end of the long extention and swivel
joint.

Make sure you have both washers in place when you fit the drain and fill
plugs, the washers (one each plug) can stick to the trans, or the plug, or
come loose.

If it sticks to the trans, it looks like part of the trans since its alluminum, so
make sure you have a washer in place on each plug when fitting the plugs
back in.

You will like the results of the GM stuff.

Brett

millerrh

Wow Brett! Those were some well documented instructions! I appreciate it. Looks like I'll need to get a 3/8 drive extension, swivel joint, and hose for my funnel. What is the shortest length drive extention that will work? Does it need to be 2 feet long? Thanks again for your help here.

Ryan

Brettg

Just buy a 2 foot long one or so, they are not expensive.
They come in standard sizes and you can snap them together, so I suppose
you could use three 6 inch ones, but that would be sloppy.

If you open the hood and look at the fill plug, you can guess the length
you need.

I got my 2 foot one someplace for about $2.00!
Its not made in China because I used it a few times
and its still in good shape.

Never buy tools made in China.

Brett

dooky211

iTrader: (1)

Took my car in today, tech said that he's going to change the MTF not with GM stuff but regular Honda stuff... Told me that if that doesnt work... Just bring in some GM stuff and he'll change it again for me... =D

SodaLuvr

Let me lay out the facts on this "warranty business" from the way I understand it.

1) Honda cannot deny a warranty claim solely because of a different fluid used. The must prove that the fluid was the cause of the failure. Doing this requires analysis of the parts (there are 3rd party labs that specialize in this, determining what caused the failure to a certain part) and analysis of the fluid. BTW, even though using a different fluid cannot be the sole basis for denying a warranty, it isn't that difficult for them to figure out if Honda is secretly putting an easily detectable tagnant in the Honda MTF.

2) There is no such thing as "void" the warranty. Honda may deny a repair claiim (worse case senario) for the transmission, but they cannot deny a claim for a broken radio two days later; clearly, a radio failure would be unrelated to a transmission failure.

Then again, you may ultimately be right. Is it worth the trouble to fight with them? As they say, its better to avoid a fight in the first place than win one later. After all, would it be that difficult to pour in some Honda MTF before taking the car to the dealer.


IF it was really the fluid that caused the failure, it can be proven. A 3rd party lab can examine the parts and determine that the fluid was the cause of failure (or even the engineers can) along with fluid analysis.


First of all that would never happen, in terms of Acura/Honda oil. Second, frequent oil changes may cover you to a degree, but not completely. What if you had a leak in your intake system somewhere, and the dirt was eating up the bearings? Out of luck bro. Third, if a lube caused the failure, a lab that specializes in checking the cause of failure in those situations can determine what really caused the failure.

Sorry for going slightly OT.

Mike

JetJock

Just DO IT! I changed my fluid a few months ago and all I can say is WOW! The tranny shifts great now. I'm not concerned about the warranty issue. If I start having tranny problems, I'll just drain the GM-FM fluid, replace it with Honda MTF, then have the car repaired. Honda MT's are bullet proof and rarely fail. Certainly, if it's about to fail, you will have other symptoms and enough time to change the fluid. The dealership isn't going to analyze the fluid, they will just repair the tranny and get you going. They will send the old tranny, or bad parts back to Acura and it will just get rebuilt. I think you guys are making a big deal out of nothing. Acura is used to repairing or replacing trannys by now, they've had a lot of AT failures and your car will just be another repair to them. They won't make a big deal out of it IMHO. Now...if you come in with a supercharger, extensive engine mods and have the car looking like it's been raced, they might become suspicious and check out the tranny before they repair it, otherwise they'll just get you on your way.

millerrh

I just changed the fluid today and took it out on a test drive. So far, I have had no problems going into 3rd gear and it does feel a bit smoother. Let's hope it stays that way!

One strange thing that I noticed during my test drive was that my clutch pedal is clicking whenever I push it in. I'm not 100% sure it wasn't there before, but I just really noticed it now. Could it have something to do with changing the fluid? Any ideas what that is? It's an audible click inside the car (almost right at the pedal).

JERU

Just curious, everyone seems to talk about particulates coming out when they drain the fluid. Did anyone just change out the Honda Fluid with fresh Honda fluid? Its pretty obvious that removing a bunch of shavings, etc and putting in new fluid is going to make the tranny shift better, regardless of whose fluid it is. The idea of putting in the GM fluid is tempting, but if all the tranny needs is a drain and refill (Honda stuff) to get the smooth shifting back, than that seems easier than all the possible headaches with non recommended fluid. Does Acura just need to change the timing of the first drain and refill in
the manual? Any comments welcome.

Brettg

What bother?
Its no trouble at al lto change the transmission fluid with the GM stuff,
its just as easy as using the honda fluid.

The GM stuff is better fluid, semi synthetic...

Brett

HEK

Well I just reached 12k and I'm doing this, called a Chevy dealer and they ahve it at $12.5/ QT so hopefully I'll have it done in the next few weeks or Sunday if the weather permits it...

millerrh

Do it. Almost a week later and I haven't had one problem going into 3rd gear. This stuff is awesome. It makes me like my car more somehow. It's just more of a pleasure to drive. No more frustrations, runs like you'd expect.

HEK

did your click on the clutch go away or was it not related to the change, I noticed no one responded to your question...

Hector

millerrh

No, it's still there, but I don't really notice it that much cause the music is usually on fairly loud. I think it might have always been there, but I was just paying attention to the sounds right after the change. It seems to me to be one of these two things: A) Some sort of switch or B) Some sort of plunger action. I was reading other posts saying that some WD40 would most likely clear it up. But it's something inside the cabin, so I'm sure it's unrelated to the change.

KilroyR1

My car has always "clicked" when I depress the clutch. I can only hear it when the radio is off and the windows are up. I probably should lube something. To me, it almost sounds like a noisy clutch interlock switch (prevents the car from starting if the clutch is not pressed in).

Don

Brettg

I have not heard my clutch click, but if it does, its likely the interlock switch.
The trans fluid has nothing to do with the clutch.

As far as the wear metal in the fluid, I dont know if its a problem,
since most of it would be from bushings and so on, and brass/bronze
which is soft.
I dont think steel parts (hardened gears) would wear enough
to see much in the lube.

Can it effect the syncro operation? I suppose it can.

Its never a bad idea to get the initial break in wear metal out, and if you go
to the trouble to do so, its a good idea to use the best fluids avalable for
the job.
I suspect the GM stuff is better fluid since its semi synthetic.

Brett