Extremely long 1200 mile review..
06-12-2004, 10:55 AM
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Extremely long 1200 mile review..
So it's been exactly a month since I took delivery of my DGP/Camel/6MT/Navi TL. I've now got 1200 miles on the odometer, and think it's time to share a few of my initial impressions with ya'all.
So here goes...
Context:
My other car is a BMW 330ci, which is my benchmark for entry-level luxury sport cars out there, and which has been my daily driver for the past 1.5 years. I have also owned the current model Audi A4 1.8T prior to the TL, an Audi A6 2.7T, and a 1995 Nissan 300zx within the past 5 years (yes...I shuffle my cars quite often ;-o), and most of this review is a conscious comparison to these vehicles. I realize that the right comparison for the TL would be a 5 series/A6, but the price range for the TL, and it's usage for me puts it in the same league as the 3-series and A4.
General Comments:
Right off the bat, I'd like to say that Acura seems to have completely outdone itself with the 04 TL. Everything about the car screams high-quality luxury sport, and the value package is simply unbeatable in its market segment. I couldn't have been happier about my decision. This car truly delivers on almost every count that matters to an above-average driving enthusiast, and more. The car does suffer from its inherent FWD limitations, but that apart, it is a match and a half for every other offering in this segment. The TL can give even the quintessential Bimmer a run for its money when it comes to the price-value equation for both cars. That being said, the car is no Bimmer in terms of fun-factor and pure driving enjoyment (not that it was meant to be!). It's almost there, but not quite!
Quality, Interior/Exterior Design:
Overall, Acura's design team has done an exemplary job with the car's design. It's almost unbelievable, how different the new model is from its predecessor. The exterior is crisp, definitive, and aggressive, all at the same time, and enjoys the benefit of all the passionate elements that were missing from the previous design, imho. It's got a little something to appeal to all tastes. Has a lot of character, but not overdone; isn't drop-dead gorgeous, but isn't forgettable either; doesn't overwhelm, but does stir a lot of sporty emotions… Just what I expect good enduring car design to be like…. kinda like the Audi philosophy. Some of the modern car designs are so aggressive, that they get old and boring just as quickly as the wax on a new car!
The real home run that Acura has hit however is with the interior of the car. I have long criticized the low-quality materials used in Japanese cars, irrespective of the price, and Acura finally seems to have addressed the cries of us complainers. Audis are my benchmark for interior car design, fit and finish, and quality of materials...and I have to say that the Acura comes very close to the best. It also beats BMW hands-down, whose interiors while beautiful, are minimalist at best.
The ergonomics of the cabin are simply superb (except for the hand-brake placement). The switches and controls are all well placed and always within reach. Touch and feel of all switches and buttons is high quality. The ambient lighting is soothing and soulful, and the leather buttery smooth.
There are a few little design/material snafus here and there, when compared to the class-leader in interior design- Audi- but no potential deal-breakers. For instance, some of the switches/parts could have been better weighted/damped (e.g. windshield wiper switch, sun-visors), and some of the plastics used in the car are still questionable (like the dome-light surround plastic). The trunk lid could also have been better damped, and less prone to slamming each time it’s closed shut. And then of course, there are the occasional buzzes and creaks that I keep hearing from various parts of the cabin. Nothing compared to the Bimmer's interior noises though, which can put the Harmon-Kardon system to shame in the range of frequencies it can produce, but annoying nonetheless.
Finally, I must mention is that I still get upset every time I see the "Honda" name etched on my Acura windows. I certainly didn't pay the extra 5K in cash for getting a dressed-up Honda (even though the TL is not). My firm belief is that Acura must invest in creating a distinct brand for Acura to prevent cross shopping, and to create a truly desirable luxury car marquee in the marketplace.
A little extra attention overall, will make these interiors best in the business, imho.
Engine/Drive Train/Handling:
The Acura's engine and drive train characteristics are truly top-notch. One complaint I always had with the Audi was the clearly perceptible slack in its drivetrain (in both the 4-cyl. 1.8T and 6-cyl 2.7T engine forms). The car always seemed underpowered, sluggish off the line, and just a wee-bit slow to respond. The Bimmer on the other hand has the smoothest engine in the business, imho, and the drivetrain has no give whatsoever. Every bit of power generated by the engine seems to go directly to the wheels.
The Acura seems to be closest to the Bimmer in its engine and drivetrain characteristics. I have felt some vibrations idling at 1000-1500 rpm just like a lot of members on this forum, but once you cross that threshold, it’s pure bliss. Smooth power delivery throughout the rpm curve. There is a slight lack of low-end torque for the aggressive drivers amongst us, but for me, the power is good enough for everyday driving, and the occasional aggressive maneuvers. The extra 50 horses on the TL are more than adequate to overcome the ~400 lb weight advantage the Bimmer has over the TL. The torque band is smooth and flat enough for me. I still haven’t experienced the feel of the VTec kicking-in yet, but I’ve just crossed break-in, and will punch the RPMs higher soon…I’m being conservative!
My favorite drivetrain feature on the TL is the 6th gear. This is where the TL makes the clean-sweep in this category over the Bimmer. Sounds rudimentary and weird, right? However, my Bimmer is a 2001 model, and BMW did not offer a 6-sp manual on the330 coupe at that time. BMW engineers have since fixed that, but I am still stuck with a paltry 5-speed, and the downside is an extremely loud engine at anything over 70mph. The Bimmer gets incredibly whiny and coarse-sounding at high speeds, and you can clearly feel the drivetrain straining from the lack of an overdrive gear. The engine is not meant to be high-revving like the TL’s, and things get quite uncomfortable in the cabin at those speeds. A big-miss by the BMW engineers, IMHO.
And now to the topic of handling…I have now had several opportunities to drive the TL back-to-back with the Bimmer, and I must say that the TL never ceases to wonder. The car is bigger, heavier, and on a FWD platform compared to the Bimmer’s smaller, lighter and RWD architecture. However, what’s amazing is how close the TL comes to the Bimmer’s handling characteristics under normal driving conditions. Acura’s engineers have done an outstanding job with wiping-out dive, squat, and float from the TL’s suspension. The chassis has very little left-right flex, and helps the driver maintain an upright driving position through corners and aggressive maneuvers. Braking does not cause the front-end to dive, and acceleration does not cause lunging. The suspension is supple and composed, and achieves a great compromise between ride quality and sporty handling. All in all, an excellent setup for the 70% everyday sedate city driving, and the 30% aggressive/sporty times behind the wheel. I sometimes forget I’m driving the TL and not the Bimmer!
The biggest limitation of the TL’s suspension is however inherent to all high-power FWD cars à Torque Steer. I have fortunately never suffered from this evil on launches (I believe in preserving the clutch and staying away from drag-racing on streets). However, I have definitely felt the steering twitch and dart nervously when the car goes over bumps while accelerating, especially on corners. The suspension and steering seem to fight with each other when this happens, and it takes a couple of seconds for the car to gain back it’s composure and stabilize from the drama. I haven’t experienced anything even close to life threatening so far, but I can envision how it could be under extreme conditions (1 per million). Also, I haven’t yet figured out how the LSD plays into the interactions between the car’s drivetrain and suspension, but maybe one of you can enlighten me on its role.
The only complaint I do have against the Acura engineers is that they did not dial enough emotion into the overall package for the more enthusiastic car buyer. The visceral and aural feel, which the Bimmer offers to its drivers, is simply unmatched in this car segment. The sweet, deep-throated sounds of the inline 6 conveyed to the driver’s audio receptors via the muffler and directly from the engine compartment, are almost non-existent on the TL. This is where The TL seems to be a bit more attuned to the tastes of luxury buyers than those with more sporty aspirations. There’s almost a contradiction in the car’s mannerisms and sporty driving characteristics, vs. the near-absolute isolation from the road-happenings around you.
And what’s with the loose and over-boosted steering feel of the TL, especially at low speeds? This, in my opinion, is the biggest miss by Acura’s engineers. The steering sometimes feels so light and disconnected, that it makes me nervous on corners and bumps where having a tighter steering would undoubtedly have helped with recovering from torque steer and nervous twitching/darting. My Audi A6 2.7T also suffered from the evil an over-boosted steering. However, on that car, I discovered after some digging around, a relay that enabled the speed-sensitive boost mechanism. So I yanked the relay, and from then on, the steering was pure bliss à tight, responsive, and communicative. Does anyone know if there’s such a relay in the TL as well?
Finally, enough’s been said already about the shortcomings of the EL42s, and the limitations it induces into a driver’s ability to throw this car around corners. The tires lack enough dry-pavement grip, hydroplane like crazy, and flat spot to no end. Acura must do something about this. It’s just not fair to create a car so perfect, and compromise on such an essential element. It’s the kind of stuff that separates the good cars from the great ones, for no real fault of the car itself. I haven’t changed my tires because I’ve leased my TL, but am increasingly hoping that they wear out soon, so that I don’t have an excuse anymore.
In my opinion, the compromise tires, over-boosted steering, and inherent torque steer form a combination lethal-enough to relegate the TL into the list of "also-rans" vs. the Bimmers, Infinitis, and Audis of the world. :shit:
Feature/Functionality:
And finally, a word on what does make this car such a GREAT car to own as a daily driver. Acura simply kills the competition in the value package that it offers on the TL. DVD-Audio, Navigation, 6-CD changer in-dash+Cassette, auto-dimming mirrors, homelink etc etc. The list is endless, and all this for such a great price too!! Unbeatable! My Bimmer cost me $7K more, and I even paid for the single-disc CD player! BMW does not even offer an alarm on its $42k car!! A similarly equipped BMW would have cost me at least $10K more than the TL. The Audi IMO, comes closest to the value equation offered by the TL, but even the Audi costs at-least 5K more for a similarly equipped A4. So the TL does not have one-touch up-down rear windows, and split rear seats. Big deal! 90% of the time I don’t have anyone on the back seats, and in the past 5 years there must have been 2-3 occasions when I dropped the back-seat of my car for hauling luggage. If I wanted more cargo space (btw, the TL’s trunk is massive) I would have bought an SUV or a pickup.
A special word for the ELS DVD-A system of the TL. The sound is impeccably clean and balanced. Some people on this forum have complained that the system’s not loud enough. However, I don’t share that emotion, and feel that the loudness of the sound is often a function of the CD being played. Some CDs always sound low no matter what you set the volume at. Others are quite the opposite. My Audis have all had Bose systems in them, and I have experienced the same with each system. However, what’s different about the ELS system is how balanced and clean it sounds at all volumes, unlike the Bose, which tended to boom at high volumes, and sounded tinny at low-volumes. The only complaint I have against the TL’s system is the lack of a speed-sensitive volume control function. All my previous cars have had this feature, and I have found it extremely useful. Wonder why ELS decided to leave it out?
Enough has already been said about the superior qualities of the Acura’s Navigation system, and I would like to concur with every comment. Don’t want to waste any space reiterating the obvious, but this system is by far the best in the market period!
A quick word for XM radio, which I don't really consider a feature of the car, but a great add-on function. I have been the biggest skeptic of satellite radio since it's mainstreaming due to its subscription requirements. Why pay for radio when you can have it for free. Hoever, the TL had converted me. XM is fabulous. THe sound quality, range of programming and selections...everything is top-notch. I am undoubtedly going to renew my subscription at the end of the trial period. It's a must have!
As for everything else, I love the ambient and gauge lighting in the TL, the memory function, the adjustability, bolstering and supportiveness of the seats, and the plush carp
Summary:
After one month of ownership of my TL, I can confidently say that this is one of my wisest and best car purchase decisions I ever made. I must say that the more I look at the WDP and SSM color TL, the more I grow in my admiration for how cool the car looks in them. However, I always choose exclusivity over everything else, and the DGP color satisfies some of my deepest passions. So no regrets there. The camel interior is something I have always wanted on my cars. Glad to finally have it.
I am blessed to be a TL owner, and proud to be a contributing member of this forum! Let’s hope this car heralds Acura’s much-delayed acceptance into the annals of luxury marquees, and makes it a serious contender along with the BMWs and Mercedes’ of this world.
PEACE
So here goes...
Context:
My other car is a BMW 330ci, which is my benchmark for entry-level luxury sport cars out there, and which has been my daily driver for the past 1.5 years. I have also owned the current model Audi A4 1.8T prior to the TL, an Audi A6 2.7T, and a 1995 Nissan 300zx within the past 5 years (yes...I shuffle my cars quite often ;-o), and most of this review is a conscious comparison to these vehicles. I realize that the right comparison for the TL would be a 5 series/A6, but the price range for the TL, and it's usage for me puts it in the same league as the 3-series and A4.
General Comments:
Right off the bat, I'd like to say that Acura seems to have completely outdone itself with the 04 TL. Everything about the car screams high-quality luxury sport, and the value package is simply unbeatable in its market segment. I couldn't have been happier about my decision. This car truly delivers on almost every count that matters to an above-average driving enthusiast, and more. The car does suffer from its inherent FWD limitations, but that apart, it is a match and a half for every other offering in this segment. The TL can give even the quintessential Bimmer a run for its money when it comes to the price-value equation for both cars. That being said, the car is no Bimmer in terms of fun-factor and pure driving enjoyment (not that it was meant to be!). It's almost there, but not quite!
Quality, Interior/Exterior Design:
Overall, Acura's design team has done an exemplary job with the car's design. It's almost unbelievable, how different the new model is from its predecessor. The exterior is crisp, definitive, and aggressive, all at the same time, and enjoys the benefit of all the passionate elements that were missing from the previous design, imho. It's got a little something to appeal to all tastes. Has a lot of character, but not overdone; isn't drop-dead gorgeous, but isn't forgettable either; doesn't overwhelm, but does stir a lot of sporty emotions… Just what I expect good enduring car design to be like…. kinda like the Audi philosophy. Some of the modern car designs are so aggressive, that they get old and boring just as quickly as the wax on a new car!
The real home run that Acura has hit however is with the interior of the car. I have long criticized the low-quality materials used in Japanese cars, irrespective of the price, and Acura finally seems to have addressed the cries of us complainers. Audis are my benchmark for interior car design, fit and finish, and quality of materials...and I have to say that the Acura comes very close to the best. It also beats BMW hands-down, whose interiors while beautiful, are minimalist at best.
The ergonomics of the cabin are simply superb (except for the hand-brake placement). The switches and controls are all well placed and always within reach. Touch and feel of all switches and buttons is high quality. The ambient lighting is soothing and soulful, and the leather buttery smooth.
There are a few little design/material snafus here and there, when compared to the class-leader in interior design- Audi- but no potential deal-breakers. For instance, some of the switches/parts could have been better weighted/damped (e.g. windshield wiper switch, sun-visors), and some of the plastics used in the car are still questionable (like the dome-light surround plastic). The trunk lid could also have been better damped, and less prone to slamming each time it’s closed shut. And then of course, there are the occasional buzzes and creaks that I keep hearing from various parts of the cabin. Nothing compared to the Bimmer's interior noises though, which can put the Harmon-Kardon system to shame in the range of frequencies it can produce, but annoying nonetheless.
Finally, I must mention is that I still get upset every time I see the "Honda" name etched on my Acura windows. I certainly didn't pay the extra 5K in cash for getting a dressed-up Honda (even though the TL is not). My firm belief is that Acura must invest in creating a distinct brand for Acura to prevent cross shopping, and to create a truly desirable luxury car marquee in the marketplace.
A little extra attention overall, will make these interiors best in the business, imho.
Engine/Drive Train/Handling:
The Acura's engine and drive train characteristics are truly top-notch. One complaint I always had with the Audi was the clearly perceptible slack in its drivetrain (in both the 4-cyl. 1.8T and 6-cyl 2.7T engine forms). The car always seemed underpowered, sluggish off the line, and just a wee-bit slow to respond. The Bimmer on the other hand has the smoothest engine in the business, imho, and the drivetrain has no give whatsoever. Every bit of power generated by the engine seems to go directly to the wheels.
The Acura seems to be closest to the Bimmer in its engine and drivetrain characteristics. I have felt some vibrations idling at 1000-1500 rpm just like a lot of members on this forum, but once you cross that threshold, it’s pure bliss. Smooth power delivery throughout the rpm curve. There is a slight lack of low-end torque for the aggressive drivers amongst us, but for me, the power is good enough for everyday driving, and the occasional aggressive maneuvers. The extra 50 horses on the TL are more than adequate to overcome the ~400 lb weight advantage the Bimmer has over the TL. The torque band is smooth and flat enough for me. I still haven’t experienced the feel of the VTec kicking-in yet, but I’ve just crossed break-in, and will punch the RPMs higher soon…I’m being conservative!
My favorite drivetrain feature on the TL is the 6th gear. This is where the TL makes the clean-sweep in this category over the Bimmer. Sounds rudimentary and weird, right? However, my Bimmer is a 2001 model, and BMW did not offer a 6-sp manual on the330 coupe at that time. BMW engineers have since fixed that, but I am still stuck with a paltry 5-speed, and the downside is an extremely loud engine at anything over 70mph. The Bimmer gets incredibly whiny and coarse-sounding at high speeds, and you can clearly feel the drivetrain straining from the lack of an overdrive gear. The engine is not meant to be high-revving like the TL’s, and things get quite uncomfortable in the cabin at those speeds. A big-miss by the BMW engineers, IMHO.
And now to the topic of handling…I have now had several opportunities to drive the TL back-to-back with the Bimmer, and I must say that the TL never ceases to wonder. The car is bigger, heavier, and on a FWD platform compared to the Bimmer’s smaller, lighter and RWD architecture. However, what’s amazing is how close the TL comes to the Bimmer’s handling characteristics under normal driving conditions. Acura’s engineers have done an outstanding job with wiping-out dive, squat, and float from the TL’s suspension. The chassis has very little left-right flex, and helps the driver maintain an upright driving position through corners and aggressive maneuvers. Braking does not cause the front-end to dive, and acceleration does not cause lunging. The suspension is supple and composed, and achieves a great compromise between ride quality and sporty handling. All in all, an excellent setup for the 70% everyday sedate city driving, and the 30% aggressive/sporty times behind the wheel. I sometimes forget I’m driving the TL and not the Bimmer!
The biggest limitation of the TL’s suspension is however inherent to all high-power FWD cars à Torque Steer. I have fortunately never suffered from this evil on launches (I believe in preserving the clutch and staying away from drag-racing on streets). However, I have definitely felt the steering twitch and dart nervously when the car goes over bumps while accelerating, especially on corners. The suspension and steering seem to fight with each other when this happens, and it takes a couple of seconds for the car to gain back it’s composure and stabilize from the drama. I haven’t experienced anything even close to life threatening so far, but I can envision how it could be under extreme conditions (1 per million). Also, I haven’t yet figured out how the LSD plays into the interactions between the car’s drivetrain and suspension, but maybe one of you can enlighten me on its role.
The only complaint I do have against the Acura engineers is that they did not dial enough emotion into the overall package for the more enthusiastic car buyer. The visceral and aural feel, which the Bimmer offers to its drivers, is simply unmatched in this car segment. The sweet, deep-throated sounds of the inline 6 conveyed to the driver’s audio receptors via the muffler and directly from the engine compartment, are almost non-existent on the TL. This is where The TL seems to be a bit more attuned to the tastes of luxury buyers than those with more sporty aspirations. There’s almost a contradiction in the car’s mannerisms and sporty driving characteristics, vs. the near-absolute isolation from the road-happenings around you.
And what’s with the loose and over-boosted steering feel of the TL, especially at low speeds? This, in my opinion, is the biggest miss by Acura’s engineers. The steering sometimes feels so light and disconnected, that it makes me nervous on corners and bumps where having a tighter steering would undoubtedly have helped with recovering from torque steer and nervous twitching/darting. My Audi A6 2.7T also suffered from the evil an over-boosted steering. However, on that car, I discovered after some digging around, a relay that enabled the speed-sensitive boost mechanism. So I yanked the relay, and from then on, the steering was pure bliss à tight, responsive, and communicative. Does anyone know if there’s such a relay in the TL as well?
Finally, enough’s been said already about the shortcomings of the EL42s, and the limitations it induces into a driver’s ability to throw this car around corners. The tires lack enough dry-pavement grip, hydroplane like crazy, and flat spot to no end. Acura must do something about this. It’s just not fair to create a car so perfect, and compromise on such an essential element. It’s the kind of stuff that separates the good cars from the great ones, for no real fault of the car itself. I haven’t changed my tires because I’ve leased my TL, but am increasingly hoping that they wear out soon, so that I don’t have an excuse anymore.
In my opinion, the compromise tires, over-boosted steering, and inherent torque steer form a combination lethal-enough to relegate the TL into the list of "also-rans" vs. the Bimmers, Infinitis, and Audis of the world. :shit:
Feature/Functionality:
And finally, a word on what does make this car such a GREAT car to own as a daily driver. Acura simply kills the competition in the value package that it offers on the TL. DVD-Audio, Navigation, 6-CD changer in-dash+Cassette, auto-dimming mirrors, homelink etc etc. The list is endless, and all this for such a great price too!! Unbeatable! My Bimmer cost me $7K more, and I even paid for the single-disc CD player! BMW does not even offer an alarm on its $42k car!! A similarly equipped BMW would have cost me at least $10K more than the TL. The Audi IMO, comes closest to the value equation offered by the TL, but even the Audi costs at-least 5K more for a similarly equipped A4. So the TL does not have one-touch up-down rear windows, and split rear seats. Big deal! 90% of the time I don’t have anyone on the back seats, and in the past 5 years there must have been 2-3 occasions when I dropped the back-seat of my car for hauling luggage. If I wanted more cargo space (btw, the TL’s trunk is massive) I would have bought an SUV or a pickup.
A special word for the ELS DVD-A system of the TL. The sound is impeccably clean and balanced. Some people on this forum have complained that the system’s not loud enough. However, I don’t share that emotion, and feel that the loudness of the sound is often a function of the CD being played. Some CDs always sound low no matter what you set the volume at. Others are quite the opposite. My Audis have all had Bose systems in them, and I have experienced the same with each system. However, what’s different about the ELS system is how balanced and clean it sounds at all volumes, unlike the Bose, which tended to boom at high volumes, and sounded tinny at low-volumes. The only complaint I have against the TL’s system is the lack of a speed-sensitive volume control function. All my previous cars have had this feature, and I have found it extremely useful. Wonder why ELS decided to leave it out?
Enough has already been said about the superior qualities of the Acura’s Navigation system, and I would like to concur with every comment. Don’t want to waste any space reiterating the obvious, but this system is by far the best in the market period!
A quick word for XM radio, which I don't really consider a feature of the car, but a great add-on function. I have been the biggest skeptic of satellite radio since it's mainstreaming due to its subscription requirements. Why pay for radio when you can have it for free. Hoever, the TL had converted me. XM is fabulous. THe sound quality, range of programming and selections...everything is top-notch. I am undoubtedly going to renew my subscription at the end of the trial period. It's a must have!
As for everything else, I love the ambient and gauge lighting in the TL, the memory function, the adjustability, bolstering and supportiveness of the seats, and the plush carp
Summary:
After one month of ownership of my TL, I can confidently say that this is one of my wisest and best car purchase decisions I ever made. I must say that the more I look at the WDP and SSM color TL, the more I grow in my admiration for how cool the car looks in them. However, I always choose exclusivity over everything else, and the DGP color satisfies some of my deepest passions. So no regrets there. The camel interior is something I have always wanted on my cars. Glad to finally have it.
I am blessed to be a TL owner, and proud to be a contributing member of this forum! Let’s hope this car heralds Acura’s much-delayed acceptance into the annals of luxury marquees, and makes it a serious contender along with the BMWs and Mercedes’ of this world.
PEACE
06-12-2004, 11:10 AM
#2
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Well Said!!!! Glad you like the car cant wait to get mine. gonna wait and see what the 05 offers and if nothing that I just got to have. I should be able to get a nice deal on an 04.
06-12-2004, 11:46 AM
#3
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"A quick word for XM radio, which I don't really consider a feature of the car, but a great add-on function. I have been the biggest skeptic of satellite radio since it's mainstreaming due to its subscription requirements. Why pay for radio when you can have it for free. Hoever, the TL had converted me. XM is fabulous. THe sound quality, range of programming and selections...everything is top-notch. I am undoubtedly going to renew my subscription at the end of the trial period. It's a must have!"
My feelings exactly. I could never understand the subscription business model. I was going to invest in XM when they first went public, but couldn't get past the subscription requirement....until:
My wife took delivery of a new TL last month (her 3rd TL) with the 90 day free XM offer. Within a few days, I became hooked on it. The ROI on $9.95 p/month is well worth it.
BTW...anyone have recommendations for an aftermarket XM for my 2002 TL Type S
?
My feelings exactly. I could never understand the subscription business model. I was going to invest in XM when they first went public, but couldn't get past the subscription requirement....until:
My wife took delivery of a new TL last month (her 3rd TL) with the 90 day free XM offer. Within a few days, I became hooked on it. The ROI on $9.95 p/month is well worth it.
BTW...anyone have recommendations for an aftermarket XM for my 2002 TL Type S
?
06-12-2004, 12:08 PM
#4
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Nice review. Thanks.
I agree its not the same as the 330, but at at least $10k less (and God knows how many fewer repair dollars over the life of the car) I feel like its a great deal.
I agree its not the same as the 330, but at at least $10k less (and God knows how many fewer repair dollars over the life of the car) I feel like its a great deal.
06-12-2004, 03:41 PM
#6
Senior Moderator
That was a great review. I wish I had a TL AND a 330 like you do. :'(
I completely agree that the steering effort and resultant lack of road feel rob the car of some of its potential fun. I am hoping that the A-Spec suspension changes that. You should switch out your tires to something better. Simply doing that changes the driving dynamics greatly--my new tires have given me more confidence in turns and in the rain.
Enjoy your car! Especially since it's no longer in break-in....
I completely agree that the steering effort and resultant lack of road feel rob the car of some of its potential fun. I am hoping that the A-Spec suspension changes that. You should switch out your tires to something better. Simply doing that changes the driving dynamics greatly--my new tires have given me more confidence in turns and in the rain.
Enjoy your car! Especially since it's no longer in break-in....
06-12-2004, 07:18 PM
#7
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Great review in all respects. I considered a 325 vs. the TL, and while I think driving the BMW is exhilirating, nothing matches the TL for overall value.
My favorite thing so far is flooring it when hitting the onramp onto the freeway...I feel like I'm about to launch into space.
Oh, and nice color combo by the way.
My favorite thing so far is flooring it when hitting the onramp onto the freeway...I feel like I'm about to launch into space.
Oh, and nice color combo by the way.
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06-12-2004, 07:20 PM
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excellent review.......I mean excellent! especially since you have driven the b's and A's. thats impressive.
I concur with your views on the wdp colour.....I never considered it but bought one because the wife loved the white with parchment (I want to make sure she never regrets the purchase) but now I love the wdp and am happy that I didn''t go with my choices...which seem to hide the car....it has such beautifull lines!
I concur with your views on the wdp colour.....I never considered it but bought one because the wife loved the white with parchment (I want to make sure she never regrets the purchase) but now I love the wdp and am happy that I didn''t go with my choices...which seem to hide the car....it has such beautifull lines!
06-13-2004, 09:29 AM
#12
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Relay for over boosted steering???
WannaTL:
Interesting how there was a relay for the speed sensitive steering on your A6. I wonder if the TL has one. Looking through the manual there are several fuses/relays that have initials only with no description of their purpose.
Does anyone know of an information source that may help us find out how to eliminate the speed sensitive steering?
Interesting how there was a relay for the speed sensitive steering on your A6. I wonder if the TL has one. Looking through the manual there are several fuses/relays that have initials only with no description of their purpose.
Does anyone know of an information source that may help us find out how to eliminate the speed sensitive steering?
06-13-2004, 02:42 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by wannaTL
Finally, enough’s been said already about the shortcomings of the EL42s, and the limitations it induces into a driver’s ability to throw this car around corners. The tires lack enough dry-pavement grip, hydroplane like crazy, and flat spot to no end. Acura must do something about this. It’s just not fair to create a car so perfect, and compromise on such an essential element. It’s the kind of stuff that separates the good cars from the great ones, for no real fault of the car itself. I haven’t changed my tires because I’ve leased my TL, but am increasingly hoping that they wear out soon, so that I don’t have an excuse anymore.
Superb review!
But take it from one DGP/Camel/6MT/Navi owner to another:
Why wait for the Bullshitstones to wear out man? Enjoy Driving Now!
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82131
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80631
.
What brand of gas are you using? If you're not using BP/Amoco Ultimate 93, TRY IT!
.
The real home run that Acura has hit however is with the interior of the car.
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80508
.
.
06-14-2004, 08:26 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by DMZ
Hey Wanna!
Superb review!
But take it from one DGP/Camel/6MT/Navi owner to another:
Why wait for the Bullshitstones to wear out man? Enjoy Driving Now!
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82131
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80631
.
What brand of gas are you using? If you're not using BP/Amoco Ultimate 93, TRY IT!
.
Now Make Your Camel Interior a Grand Slam:
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80508
.
.
Superb review!
But take it from one DGP/Camel/6MT/Navi owner to another:
Why wait for the Bullshitstones to wear out man? Enjoy Driving Now!
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82131
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80631
.
What brand of gas are you using? If you're not using BP/Amoco Ultimate 93, TRY IT!
.
Now Make Your Camel Interior a Grand Slam:
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80508
.
.
Thanks, DMZ. Will consider your advice on swapping the tires. I absolutely love Amoco 93 gas. However, have trouble finding it in my path to work everyday. Sunoco 93 is my compromise, when I can't find a BP/Amoco gas sation.
Cheers!
06-29-2004, 10:36 AM
#16
loves his TL!
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also on my first 1200 miles ...
... and what a blast of a 1200 miles it has been 
. never in my 13 years of driving (im 29) have i owned a car with so much technology, fun to drive, and value. here is a list of cars that ive been priviledged to drive.
1993 Nissan Sentra SE-R
1994 Honda Civic EX Coupe
1995 Mitsubishi 3000-GT (bought it used)
1998 Acura Integra GS-R (intake, headers, exhaust, suspension, cams, cam gears, fuel)
2002 BMW 323i
2004 Acura TL (Nighthawk Black Pearl / Ebony, 6MT, Navi)
Nothing even comes close to how balanced the 04 TL is in terms of performance, value, and "grin-factor"
. the Bimmer was nice but was a little underpowered (175hp), shouldve gotten the 330i but couldnt afford it at the time. my next car will probably be the RL -- after i fall out of love on my TL -- which is probably going to be a looooong time.
. never in my 13 years of driving (im 29) have i owned a car with so much technology, fun to drive, and value. here is a list of cars that ive been priviledged to drive.1993 Nissan Sentra SE-R
1994 Honda Civic EX Coupe
1995 Mitsubishi 3000-GT (bought it used)
1998 Acura Integra GS-R (intake, headers, exhaust, suspension, cams, cam gears, fuel)
2002 BMW 323i
2004 Acura TL (Nighthawk Black Pearl / Ebony, 6MT, Navi)
Nothing even comes close to how balanced the 04 TL is in terms of performance, value, and "grin-factor"
. the Bimmer was nice but was a little underpowered (175hp), shouldve gotten the 330i but couldnt afford it at the time. my next car will probably be the RL -- after i fall out of love on my TL -- which is probably going to be a looooong time.
06-29-2004, 10:56 AM
#17
My dog thinks I'm Elvis!
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Originally Posted by wannaTL
Engine/Drive Train/Handling:
And now to the topic of handling…I have now had several opportunities to drive the TL back-to-back with the Bimmer, and I must say that the TL never ceases to wonder. The car is bigger, heavier, and on a FWD platform compared to the Bimmer’s smaller, lighter and RWD architecture. However, what’s amazing is how close the TL comes to the Bimmer’s handling characteristics under normal driving conditions. Acura’s engineers have done an outstanding job with wiping-out dive, squat, and float from the TL’s suspension. The chassis has very little left-right flex, and helps the driver maintain an upright driving position through corners and aggressive maneuvers. Braking does not cause the front-end to dive, and acceleration does not cause lunging. The suspension is supple and composed, and achieves a great compromise between ride quality and sporty handling. All in all, an excellent setup for the 70% everyday sedate city driving, and the 30% aggressive/sporty times behind the wheel. I sometimes forget I’m driving the TL and not the Bimmer!
The biggest limitation of the TL’s suspension is however inherent to all high-power FWD cars à Torque Steer. I have fortunately never suffered from this evil on launches (I believe in preserving the clutch and staying away from drag-racing on streets). However, I have definitely felt the steering twitch and dart nervously when the car goes over bumps while accelerating, especially on corners. The suspension and steering seem to fight with each other when this happens, and it takes a couple of seconds for the car to gain back it’s composure and stabilize from the drama. I haven’t experienced anything even close to life threatening so far, but I can envision how it could be under extreme conditions (1 per million). Also, I haven’t yet figured out how the LSD plays into the interactions between the car’s drivetrain and suspension, but maybe one of you can enlighten me on its role.
And now to the topic of handling…I have now had several opportunities to drive the TL back-to-back with the Bimmer, and I must say that the TL never ceases to wonder. The car is bigger, heavier, and on a FWD platform compared to the Bimmer’s smaller, lighter and RWD architecture. However, what’s amazing is how close the TL comes to the Bimmer’s handling characteristics under normal driving conditions. Acura’s engineers have done an outstanding job with wiping-out dive, squat, and float from the TL’s suspension. The chassis has very little left-right flex, and helps the driver maintain an upright driving position through corners and aggressive maneuvers. Braking does not cause the front-end to dive, and acceleration does not cause lunging. The suspension is supple and composed, and achieves a great compromise between ride quality and sporty handling. All in all, an excellent setup for the 70% everyday sedate city driving, and the 30% aggressive/sporty times behind the wheel. I sometimes forget I’m driving the TL and not the Bimmer!
The biggest limitation of the TL’s suspension is however inherent to all high-power FWD cars à Torque Steer. I have fortunately never suffered from this evil on launches (I believe in preserving the clutch and staying away from drag-racing on streets). However, I have definitely felt the steering twitch and dart nervously when the car goes over bumps while accelerating, especially on corners. The suspension and steering seem to fight with each other when this happens, and it takes a couple of seconds for the car to gain back it’s composure and stabilize from the drama. I haven’t experienced anything even close to life threatening so far, but I can envision how it could be under extreme conditions (1 per million). Also, I haven’t yet figured out how the LSD plays into the interactions between the car’s drivetrain and suspension, but maybe one of you can enlighten me on its role.
Do you write for a living?
A-SPEC cures most of the above and measurably enhances the driving experience and "road feel". Get it and you'll never drive your Bimmer again!
06-29-2004, 07:20 PM
#18
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Good writeup on the TL. Agree on the few shortcomings of the TL, although I would still place it ahead of the G35 on quality and ahead of 330i based on price. Audis have always scared me because of quality issues. I have a 540i and while the performance is awsome the repair costs for BMW's are not fun. The problem I have is going from one car to the other. The 540 steering almost seems too heavy once you get used to the too light steering of the TL. The emotional content of TL is not there, I agree. I never had the same feeling as when I purchased my first vette. I practically slept with that car. Even with BMW, they are sort of cold. The G35 was the hot consumer choice last year and the TL this year. Wonder what the hot car will be for next year, maybe the new Mustang or new Vette.
08-16-2004, 02:36 AM
#20
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Thanks for the nice, articulate and detailed review. I agree with most of your comments.
I'm only 1 1/2 days into the experience, but have posted an initial review:
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/show...9799#post909799
Enjoy your TL !!!
Lory
I'm only 1 1/2 days into the experience, but have posted an initial review:
http://www.acura-tl.com/forums/show...9799#post909799
Enjoy your TL !!!
Lory
08-16-2004, 05:12 PM
#21
Registered Member
To wannaTL;
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
08-17-2004, 08:19 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
To wannaTL;
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
08-17-2004, 08:19 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
To wannaTL;
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
Perhaps the most lucid, succinct, and discriminating review I've yet read on this of just about any other site. Congratulations!
I agree with just about all you said with the exception of the steering and the torque steer. But then again, I'm coming from a 2002 Altima SE not a BMW.. though my wife has a 328i automatic. So in comparing the steering of my TL (which is anything but loose or over-boosted) to my former Altima SE, I have nothing bur praise for it. The only front drive car I have ever driven which exceeds it was my 2000 SVT Contour. As for torque steer, you should try the Altima SE. Mine was modded and was putting out around 265 HP and the same number for torque. With no LSD, if one tire was even thinking about a little less traction on the asphalt (or coming out of a turn) when going WOT, hold on.
Now as for the engine being allowed to resonate a bit more sound to the driver, absolutely. I view this as both a safety thing and a "better driver" thing. When you can hear the engine, your shifts are better timed and you are more aware of what's going on.
In closing, a car has to keep me entertained in order for it to maintain my interest levels. And I don't mean the sound system here. It must be a driver's car capable of offering a measure of performance to me. A dash of refinement is nice and appreciated as well. My TL accomplishes both of these tasks with aplomb. That and as far as I'm concerned, it's one drop dead gorgeous machine.. outside and in.
Once again, wannaTL. Thanks for a superbly written review. Keep up the good work and submit another one here down the road.
08-17-2004, 08:24 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by Indecision
Great write-up!
I'm sure a little bit of Honda history will ease up your dislike for the Honda sticker There's no shame in owing a Honda.
I'm sure a little bit of Honda history will ease up your dislike for the Honda sticker
There's no shame in owing a Honda.Look out for my 5000 mile update of the review!
05-29-2007, 04:33 PM
#28
Originally Posted by Saving4aTL
Hey everyone. Should I get a 2000 tl? or wait 1-2 months and buy the 04' tl? I heard the 99-03's had problematic trannies. thanks!
the 3rd generation model is definitely worth it, if you can afford it, but the 2G models arent bad at all
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