jime

Alternate title: Why you should buy an Automatic TL

I consider myself very experienced in driving manual transmissions as I have had one for a daily driver for over 40 years. I did some motorcycle drag racing in the 70’s, and have driven manual transmission Acuras for over 300,000 miles with no problems until now.

It all happened in an instant when merging from southbound 101 to westbound 237 in San Jose, CA. The heavy traffic was coming up fast and I accelerated harder than normal to get up speed so that I could merge safely. Just as I was in the last stage of performing the merge, and also shifting from 3rd to 4th, a vehicle in the far left lane abruptly changed lanes and was going to hit my left front quarter panel. My reaction was to yank my steering wheel to the right to get back in the merge/exit lane, while unconsciously shifting and removing my foot off the clutch. However, when I shifted during this maneuver I got into 2nd instead of 4th. As I let out the clutch I felt the drag of the engine as it wound up and immediately depressed the clutch. I didn’t see where the RPM ended up, but didn’t see an engine light so assumed that I had gotten the clutch back in before the engine reached red-line. I drove the15 miles home and parked the car. Two hours later, I was going out to dinner and I noticed a check engine light at idle and that the engine had a rough idle. The car exhibited no other problems so I did not relate the check engine light to the accident avoidance event earlier in the day.

I took the car in for the rough idle and check engine light at idle, expecting an emissions system problem. I was shocked when the diagnosis was bent valves caused by an engine overspeed. I was even more shocked when the estimate was $2,700 to $3,800 and that it was not covered by warranty because it was customer induced. The damage was very slight with the worse value being out of spec by only 4 thousands (0.004). But even after a valve adjustment to bring the valves into specification the engine was still misfiring on several cylinders at idle. The repair included replacing 14 of the 24 valves and the final cost was approximately $3,575. I haven’t received the final settlement, but it appears my cost will be $1,280.92 and Acura “goodwill repair” will be the subject of another long post after I receive the settlement.

Bottom line is I got my car back and it runs great. But being so aware of how easy it is to damage the engine takes all the fun out of driving the stick shift, and my next car will definitely have an automatic transmission.

onsknth

chit happens... Sorry for your loss, but the car had nothing to do with it and the issue is present in probably every standard transmission vehicle, unless there is some limiting device I'm unaware of. It's a freak thing that happened and I'm fully aware of the speed at which things happen in a crisis situation, unfortunately that's when humans tend to make the most mistakes.

I do have a question though... In all my experience with a standard transmission, my hand movement tells me exactly what gear I'm in, I would have definitely felt the weirdness of the 2nd gear position and not let the clutch out. You say you have a lot of experience too, again taking the "crisis" into consideration... Didin't it feel weird before you did it?

trancemission

this isnt the first time someone has done this.

darksom1

When you say settlement, does that imply that you took Acura to arbitration/court for the incident that happened since they declined warranty repair? What exactly do you mean when you say settlement?

Sorry, but I also agree that it was your "reaction" in the given sequence of events that led to the subsequent damage. Someone else had a similar situation where they had damage caused by shifting incorrectly or out of sequence. Maybe someone reading this knows who it is and can comment further, but in your case, as well as their's, it's not Acura's fault. Also, what does doing that have to do with Acura's MT vs any other? You can do that in any car! Isn't that like saying don't buy a gas engine by Acura because if you put diesel fuel in it, it will screw up the engine? In case you missed the point, all I'm saying is that you can't use something you did wrong to justify why you shouldn't drive an Acura MT, else you might incur an unreasonable expense down the road. Under normal driving conditions, you would have a credible argument as to the ease at which they bent, but that was not a "normal" failure, it was definitely customer induced. Not agreeing with the reasoning behind this one...Just my

Glad you got your car fixed and back on the road, though!

jime

Interesting comments and I will try to clarify.

Yes, the risk is there with every manual transmission car as far as I know. I wrote the post because I thought someone trying to decide between purchasing an automatic or 6-MT would be interested.

Yes, the damage was entirely my error and neither my TL nor Acura is responsible. But the issue to me is “tiny error – huge cost”.

Everything happened so fast that I did not have time to think about anything except not hitting the car that was trying to hit me.

Settlement was probably not a good term – refund might have been better. I picked up the car last Saturday and Acura called yesterday with the news about “goodwill repair”. The issue that I will address in a post after the dust has settled is my thoughts about being a “good” Acura customer and how it relates to “goodwill” repairs. I used to think I was a “good” Acura customer, but this event changed my mind.

your_mom

Thanks, I'll go trade mine in for an automatic right now.

It does feel weird before you do it, but with 6 speeds some times it's hard to tell if your mind is on other things (like avoiding an accident).

I'd be happy Acura picked up some of the tab. I had a transmission go out on a Jeep Grand Cherokee (don't ever buy a Jeep) about 4,000 miles out of warranty and Chrysler paid exactly $0.00 in goodwill. The transmission was not my fault at all, just another example of the poor reliability of domestics.

psolk

Did this with my 03 CL-S 6MT which is why my 07 TL-S is an A/T. I made a lot of noise about it when it happened and I got a similar goodwill repair. I only paid for labor which was about $800 and I never had another issue after the repairs. All part of the reason I went back for another Acura...
Glad to hear Acura didn't stick you with the entire bill, good luck,
-Paul

S PAW 1

C'mon old man, that clutch leg doesn't move quite as fast as it used to!
I can say that as I'm ready for #54 next month.
I had a 2001 CL Type S that I wished every day that it could have a manual transmission, and an e-brake up where it belongs next to the passenger seat, and not on the floor. I ended up trading it at 144,000 miles, with a failing transmission (like thousands of others) that luckily the used car guy didn't notice.
So I bought an '05 TL 6MT with A-Spec suspension, and has it been a fun car to drive! Slot car handling, and I love the manual tranny. BUT, I have to admit I am getting closer to wanting the more serene and calm nature of the automatic.
I am lucky in that I don't have to sit in traffic much, or else my baby might be gone already.
Bad news on the valves though. The protective rev limiter works on upshifts, but not downshifts.
Good luck

'05 6MT NBP
A-Spec suspension
K&N Typhoon intake
Debadged rear
245/40/17 Michelin Pilot A/S
V1 on the lookout

DMZ

The ONLY reasons I'd consider an automatic next time around are a) NYC Traffic, b) driving on super long trips can be shared, and c) Auto TL owners are reporting better highway mileage. Over the X-Mas holiday, I drove NYC to Atlanta with passengers. I had to do all the driving since I was the only stick driver in the car.
.
.
.

Black_05_TL_6SP

This is a risk that one runs with driving a close ratio 6MT. Depending on the speed you where going when you down shifted to 2nd, really determine how much valve float you are going to get. Apparently, is was minor, but enough to effect the valves. It could have been much worse, with a valve being completely bent and broken off into the cylinder. Which my brother in law has done with a 289 Ford motor.

I myself have made that down shift from 5th to 2nd, in my old Prelude. Fortunately, the head was built and 12K RPM was not a problem. But still scared the crap out of me. I am sorry for what happened and that you have to dish out money for another drivers decision. Good luck and glad to hear you have the car back.

Jason

BTW, the ford was an automatic

jedblanks

I've only driven a TL 6MT once, but in every other (synchronized) manual tranny I have driven, when missing a shift, there is a considerable difference of feel as it goes into gear. It feels like the syncros can't speed up enough for the gears to mesh right (You'll get the same feeling if you try to shift into first when going over 10 mph). I realize this was an emergency situation, but my motto is:

'If it doesn't slide right in, back off and try again"

Kostyan

This is part driver error, because obviously everything went so fast that the driver didnt think about shifting into 2nd at 80mph.

Dont blame this on manual transmission because you lost the handle on it.

Sammy555

Sorry to hear about what happened with the MT6 and engine, but to me it sounds like a freak accident and I don't think that people should be scared off of manual transmissions because of this. As for myself, I have been driving MT's all my adult life and the worst thing I've done was to accidently try to move in 3rd gear instead of 1st after a stop. I've been very happy with the reliability of MT's and of all the cars I've owned I've never once had a manual transmission problem or even once had to replace a clutch - not even after 190K miles on my old Mazda 626. So I'm sold on MT's - and, besides, they're a lot more fun to drive.

chiawei

so you are telling me that you performed a money shift and you are complaining about the expensive damage?

onsknth

Can't find 'em, grind 'em!

handydandy

could a newbie at manual also damage his engine by lugging his engine in 1st gear at launch?
for example, when you launch from a stop in 1st gear, you dont add enough gas so your rpm drops below idle. If a begininer kept on doing this while learning, would this also hurt the engine?

ankur914

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=spec+weight

Check out post 32. RoadRage explains the effects of lugging and how its bad.

JoeyASPEC

That blows.

My next car (Audi S5) will be manual though.

Adobeman

Well, all I can say is the last guy to completely blow a shift and "float" his valves was pretty pissed off at Acura as well. As I recall he got a severe beating by other members since it's not Acura's fault or anything wrong with the engine that causes the damage. It's simply driver error. You seem to be honest about what happened so there's no reason to beat you up over it. You just had some sh&t luck. That can happen to any of us.

I'd say count your lucky stars that you are getting Acura to pick up some of the bill. You were up around red line in 3rd and "found" second. That probably pushed you over 8k. That's going to hurt lots of engines, not just Acura/Honda engines.

As for "warning" folks about the MT I disagree. There is no inherent risk to the engine with an MT.

darksom1

AND since you drive at your side job "Anthony"!!!

SouthernBoy

You should avoid lugging your engine in any gear.. first is the one least to worry about due to the very low gear ratios of 1st gear and the final drive combined. However, in first when starting from a stop, you are traveling at your lowest speeds.

Ideally, you want to start off between 1000-1200 RPM, but this is not always possible nor desirable. I try for 1200 whenever conditions allow. The idea is to add throttle as your clutch takeup increases engagement while maintaining enough engine speed to properly propel the vehicle without lugging or revving.

Black_05_TL_6SP

If he was near redline, say 6500rpm, and he dropped to 2nd, that would put him in the 9k+ range. Pretty harsh on a V6 engine. The 4cyl can handle that way better. But as you said, it was not intentional and he was not racing, he was forced to swerve while in the process of down shifting and his body weight shifted and he hit the wrong gear. It was an "accident". But as many have put it, it is not the fault of the transmission, just a by product of driving a MT car. One must be sure of there shifts even in a stressful situation.

onsknth

FWIW - I prefer a manual/standard transmission in traffic, pretty much set it in 2nd and forget it... The auto coasts too much causing a constant need to jockey between the brake and the foot-feed. I slip into S-mode and let the trans work between 1-2 as an automatic, but the 2nd gear on an auto isn't the same as a manual, so I'm still jockeying between the brake and the gas more than I care to.

IMO - while in heavy traffic, I try to never use the brakes, that's what causes traffic in the first place... When I see someone tap their brakes 27 times in 200ft, the only thing I can think of is, CLUELESS NOOB driving in front of me, it then becomes a goal to get as far away from the dip as quickly as possible.

HEK

Same thought here, personally I was worried about this ever happening to me when I installed my Comptech short shifter but you know, I'm not saying I'm a better driver than the average joe, but I started driving trailers right out of High School and all my cars since 1975 when I got my license have been stick, so on that note I feel for you jime, but maybe next time you will let someone hit you instead of shifting in a the panic ....bodywork is allways covered under your car insurance.....

DMZ

While you're fundamentaly right, the real problem is the # of CLUELESS NOOBS out there on the roads these days. Since the vast majority of cars are automatics, those brake lights tell whose behind you you're slowing down. Downshifting not using the brakes and hence, no brake lights could make the average moron behind you not realize you're slowing down until it's too late.

I see so many people holding and talking on their cell phones while driving paying little attention to what's going on around them that it's freightening.

onsknth

I hear you on the intended use of the brake lights... But, it's more a matter of keeping the moron behind you in check by not giving him the opportunity to come flying up behind you... Keep in mind I'm talking that 10-15MPH crawling type of traffic, the accelerator is all you need. He's going slow enough and you never slow down fast enough for him to hit you type of thing.

DMZ

Tings are officially wrapping up as I write dis. A nudda week aw 2.

bmaczo6

iTrader: (1)

This was not a tiny error but a HUGE error. Your failure to recognize this and the expectation that Acura should be obligated to do anything for you is hard to understand. This was 100% operator error and you should be very grateful that they repaired your car at a substantially reduced price.

This is not a reason for anyone else but you to buy an automatic.

geekybiker

This is just further proof that experience does not equal skill I guess. However everyone makes mistakes, and this was a costly one. Blaming this on the MT makes as much sense as blaming an AT for rear ending someone at a stop light because you took your foot off the brake.

In the future remember the all important saying " When in doubt, both feet in" It'll save your life and transmission if you ever get on a track, or in hairy situations.

Formula 350

Why would being a good customer or not change anything Acura should do... it was not their fault that you broke the engine...

Let's say you had not turned in time and had hit the other car... should Acura fix your wreck because you are a 'good customer'???

It they paid ANYTHING you should be thanking them and not planning on bashing them (which is what I see coming reading between the lines.....)

Formula 350

Just a question for some of the more educated people on this board...

Are there not engines that it does not matter if you 'float' like the OP did?? That the pistons would not hit the valves under those conditions???

sixsixfour

engines with low compression pistions (i.e. turbo engines that run 9.8:1 stock or lower) have flat piston tops that are less likely to strike an offending valve than high compression pistons (11:1 or higher).

I have personally helped a friend with his Evo that undergone a near-identical situation. He was merging off the freeway at a rather high speed (I was following him in my MR then at around 75) when he accidentally downshifted from 5th to 2nd. The Evo revved all the way through the tach (last number is 9000) and the car died. We were able to restart the engine but he had no drive.

we had it towed to a Mitsu dealership and I talked to my Mitsu contacts to see what they can do. My friend knew it was his fault and wasnt asking for anything, but I offered to help out what I can. Pulling some strings I got them to chage it under warranty, as I was expecting the worst. It turns out, all he had from the whole affair was a broken clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing - the clutch (stock at least) of an Evo is designed to break apart from the transmission and input/output shaft the instant its subjected to speeds faster than what the part is designed to withstand.

I was worried he would have bent valves and all but after being inspected, he had no such damage and the engine was totally fine. my friend thought he shredded his transmission (as he had no "drive" and could not find a gear) but everything was fine on that end as well. its quite possible that the design of the piston head itself may be to blame - high compression pistons normally have a bigger top than a low compression piston. so in the event the engine misses timing or over-revs, it is more likely for a valve to strike the top of a HC piston than a LC piston.

darksom1

Wow! That's cool 664!! I wish our car was like that. Breakaway parts sound good, unless they make you stop abruptly! At a high speed, that can be dangerous in it's own right.

Like someone else said, I worry that I may do that since I have the CT SS in my whip too! I consider myself a very experienced and careful driver. But mistakes do happen. I guess the crew would have been easier on jime if he had accepted his wrong in the beginning instead of implying that Acura was short-changing him. I said as much before when he mentioned the settlement issue.

sixsixfour

I have the pictures somewhere. its nothing fancy - the metal pieces just have these clips and notches that can only withstand so much force - a bit more, and they break apart.

the reason being is that the clutch/pressure plate assembly connects the transmission (and wheels/tires on the ground at speed) to the engine. if this piece separates, the engine can rev on idle and you can be at 100 mph. kinda like engaging neutral at that speed. no engine damage since the transmission and the engine are not physically revving at the *same* speed.

On an Evo (with the stock clucth assembly), if your road speed exceeds the speed that the transmission can take for a given gear (i.e. speeds of 70+ and you are accidentally in 2nd gear) the clutch assembly "breaks away" from the parts that connect it to the crankshaft (and in turn, the engine). So you may over-rev, but as soon as you do, the engine is already physically disconnected from the transmission, so even if you are in 2nd gear at 75 mph, the engine is no longer revving along at whatever engine speed that would normally equate to in 2nd gear. so no bent valves, or other internal damage.

its a simple and inexpensive solution.

subinf

^ - are you the one who posted pictures a little while back? I've seen what you are talking about posted on the forum before.

darksom1

Hey, are you saying that I can mod my car like that? Or were you just commenting on how much it costs for cars that can? That shit would make me fearless!!! LOL!