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Engine Swap or Rebuild
I have a 2008 TL-S 6MT with 170K miles. The engine has at least two deeply scored cylinders. Probably from metal shavings from stripped oil pan bolt by first and only oil change at a quick lube shop out of town.
Body and interior are in excellent condition. Just installed new oil pan and new brake pads and rotors. Has some modifications, J-pipe, CAI, Crank Pulley, Hondata Flash Pro tune. Also have two sets of wheels with summer tires and winter tires (great snow traction). Enjoy driving this car and would prefer to try to fix it rather than buy another car. Plan A: Rebuild existing engine. New sleeves? While apart, port and polish heads, IM, other... Plan B: Swap in used TL-S engine with 75K-125K miles. Plan C: Bore out existing engine to 3.7L and commit to adding all necessary 3.7 parts to maximize its potential. Plan D: Swap in used 2014 3.7L engine with only 19K miles. Is this possible? 3.7 is from an auto and I have MT. Thank you. |
A few comments:
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I like your first 2 options because they don’t require too many mods/cost versus return. Option b requires type s electronics as well as the engine as I recall. I like option b and you could easily clean up the used engine, replace any leaky gaskets, clean intake manifold, etc. Let us know what you do. Have you considered a build thread? I would subscribe.
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Cheapest option would be to swap engines. It'll be a straight forward swap.. uninstall old motor, install new motor. Easy peasy! No need for anything electrical, just swap in an auto or manual engine.
if using auto, Mechanic will need to plug some extra coolant lines |
3.7 swap if your able to.
Swap over your oil pump (or new one) to retain your lower timing gear, any sensors that don't match up & your engine harness. Trans will bolt right up as well. |
Also, the pre cats are a different design so those would be needed as well.
Torque tho... |
I would swap it with another TL-S engine.
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Originally Posted by truonghthe
(Post 16170036)
I would swap it with another TL-S engine.
Easiest Option: Direct SwapMost Fun but costly option: 3.7 SwapWorst option: boring existing engine |
For a swap I have found multiple mid to high mileage TL-s engines and the one very low mileage 3.7 engine for not that much more money. Looking in to all fitment issues.
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Another frustrating factor in this issue, is that this is my second engine in this car. I already did a TL-S swap several years. The swapped in engine had 90K miles on it and it ran great for 75K miles until this" scoring/oil contamination in cylinders 2 and 3".
I was assuming metal fragments came in from the bottom but if the oil filter is going to prevent that I do not have enough engine knowledge yet, but I guess that means it was contaminated from the top not the bottom? |
What happened to the first engine? Killing one engine at low mileage is rare in these...killing two...pretty much unheard of.
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Originally Posted by MTyler
(Post 16170312)
Another frustrating factor in this issue, is that this is my second engine in this car. I already did a TL-S swap several years. The swapped in engine had 90K miles on it and it ran great for 75K miles until this" scoring/oil contamination in cylinders 2 and 3".
I was assuming metal fragments came in from the bottom but if the oil filter is going to prevent that I do not have enough engine knowledge yet, but I guess that means it was contaminated from the top not the bottom? |
I have pictures from borescope of scoring of at least two cylinders. Will see if I can upload them.
Also two oil fouled spark plugs, which I suppose could be caused by other factors? I really do not know that much about engines and learning as I go here, but I try to do as much as possible myself to save money. I do really trust my mechanic, he is really diligent and fair. We have an MDX with a similar 3.5 engine and it has 302K miles on it. Whenever it has an issue he has been great and affordable keeping it running well. |
Borescope is pretty definitive. Given how generally robust the J35 engine is, I'd love to know how those cylinder walls got scored; unfortunately that is something we'll probably never figure out.
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I also Iike the Honda 3.5 engine for its longeviy. The one in our MDX still runs great with over 300k miles. Both engines in TL-S were powerful and responsive, but two have died or I have killed them. I am weekly checking oil level, doing scheduled maintenance. I drive alot of miles, mainly highway.
First engine had 156K miles and 7 years when "blew rear center plug out of head" and maybe was some other damage, there was an awful shriek, think it was timing belt? If I recall correctly we were going to replace cylinder head but then found lower mileage engine assembly for not that much more so swapped. |
Originally Posted by MTyler
(Post 16170365)
I also Iike the Honda 3.5 engine for its longeviy. The one in our MDX still runs great with over 300k miles. Both engines in TL-S were powerful and responsive, but two have died or I have killed them. I am weekly checking oil level, doing scheduled maintenance. I drive alot of miles, mainly highway.
First engine had 156K miles and 7 years when "blew rear center plug out of head" and maybe was some other damage, there was an awful shriek, think it was timing belt? If I recall correctly we were going to replace cylinder head but then found lower mileage engine assembly for not that much more so swapped. I'm still at a loss on the whole cylinder wall issue. :( Edit: given your luck with the engine in your Type-S, I would suggest avoiding the J37 swap; if I am not mistaken, most (all?) J37s use a different type of cylinder sleeve which is nowhere near as robust as the sleeves used in the other J-Series engines. |
The 3.5L is pretty stalwart but I had problems too. Bad oil control ring on cylinder 5. I was consuming a quart of oil every 300 miles. But then there's the 3.5L in my Honda Pilot. 230K miles and still going strong. Doesn't burn any oil.
The engine swap will be the easiest and cheapest. I'm not terribly familiar with what all would be involved with the other options. I'd imagine swapping in a different gen 3.7L would involve a far bit of retrofitting (as already stated). If you plan on keeping the car for a very long time and want the additional performance then by all means, fork out the cash and do it. But you'll likely pay 50%+ more than the swap alone. |
Originally Posted by horseshoez
(Post 16169955)
A few comments:
I was thinking boring out 3.5L to 3.7L might be possible because of reading the article below. "...Compared to the RL's new V6, the 2009 TL version is up 5hp and 2lb-ft, for a total of 305hp and 273lb-ft. This engine is essentially a bored and stroked version of the 3.5L, but there are some key differences, starting with the cylinder liners. The 3.5L engine features an aluminum block with cast-in iron cylinder liners, but due to the relatively close bore spacing of the J-series V6 design, the 3.7L version uses high-silicon aluminum cylinder liners for improved cooling. During the block machining process, a mechanical etching process exposes silicon particles embedded within the aluminum sleeves, creating a hard piston ring sealing surface. A side benefit of the aluminum cylinder liners is that the overall engine weight of the J37 is actually less than the J35." |
If you try and bore out those cast-iron cylinder liners the odds of an catastrophic engine failure loom large; not a good idea. As for the 3.7 with the aluminum liners, check around, the failure rate (measured in oil consumption) is very high.
Long story short, I recommend you stick with the 3.5. |
I will probably concede and go with swapping in another 3.5L. Starting to more fully appreciate all the other modifications required to obtain a 3.7L. Just aggravated that if going to have to repeat this whole process would rather at least get some increased torque solace.
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Originally Posted by candrews
(Post 16169958)
I like your first 2 options because they don’t require too many mods/cost versus return. Option b requires type s electronics as well as the engine as I recall. I like option b and you could easily clean up the used engine, replace any leaky gaskets, clean intake manifold, etc. Let us know what you do. Have you considered a build thread? I would subscribe.
I called some machine shops today. One quoted $2K to resleeve the block. More evidence to swap than rebuild. Regarding a build I am still contemplating buying an engine stand, but I am probably the wrong person for producing a build thread. The only car I have worked on is a 25yo Jeep and I did not really touch the engine other than some headers and it took me a month to take apart and 9 months to reassemble. I will have to commit to public transportation for a while if I delude myself in to hoisting this motor out and learning how to work on it in my garage in the evenings. |
Go for torque... :whistle:
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Looking again at this super low mileage 3.7L in junkyard. Motor mounts, 6MT, etc appear to mate right up. No transmission/bellhousing adapter required? Have you seen the videos of Fred in Montreal with his 2004 TSX, 08 6MT and TL 3.7L?
My 3.5L J-pipe will not work with 3.7 precats? Retain 3.5L oil pump to retain lower timing gear? If 3.7 with dual stage VTEC has higher oil pressure do we need to modify oil pump to bump up pressure? Does the lower timing gear have to be replaced because of the tone wheel for the crank sensor? |
Originally Posted by horseshoez
(Post 16170568)
If you try and bore out those cast-iron cylinder liners the odds of an catastrophic engine failure loom large; not a good idea. As for the 3.7 with the aluminum liners, check around, the failure rate (measured in oil consumption) is very high.
Long story short, I recommend you stick with the 3.5. Regarding the 3.7 aluminum liners I have started researching, apparently there is a TSB from 2009-10, if my prospective 3.7L is a 2013, more likely that liner issue addressed? Will look more in to it. Thx. |
Good luck, keep us posted on your project. :)
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Justinspace
Are there TSBs somewhere in one place on Acurazine? Specifically on the oil consumption/aluminum liners of the J37? When I search I find mention of it but not the actual TSB. Thx. |
Originally Posted by justnspace
(Post 16169971)
Cheapest option would be to swap engines. It'll be a straight forward swap.. uninstall old motor, install new motor. Easy peasy! No need for anything electrical, just swap in an auto or manual engine.
if using auto, Mechanic will need to plug some extra coolant lines Are there TSBs somewhere in one place on Acurazine? Specifically on the oil consumption/aluminum liners of the J37? When I search I find mention of it but not the actual TSB. Thx. |
Unsure if you can post youtube links on here, but this TSX has a J37A4 mated to same 08 6MT and supported by TL-S sub frame as already on my car.
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this is long video but at 14:00 minute mark is the TSX/TL-S/3.7L build.
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Originally Posted by MTyler
(Post 16171398)
Looking again at this super low mileage 3.7L in junkyard. Motor mounts, 6MT, etc appear to mate right up. No transmission/bellhousing adapter required? Have you seen the videos of Fred in Montreal with his 2004 TSX, 08 6MT and TL 3.7L?
My 3.5L J-pipe will not work with 3.7 precats? Retain 3.5L oil pump to retain lower timing gear? If 3.7 with dual stage VTEC has higher oil pressure do we need to modify oil pump to bump up pressure? Does the lower timing gear have to be replaced because of the tone wheel for the crank sensor? The lower timing gear/sensor communicates with your stock ECU & keeps everything happy. The j pipe should bolt up without issue, the mounting points are the same. I've seen those videos from MTL, car rips lol. No adapter needed at all. Just swap over your mount brackets and accessories. |
Originally Posted by teh CL
(Post 16171553)
I've seen those videos from MTL, car rips lol.
I was just thinking, that 'Fred L' guy would of came in handy for 'facepalm', over in the MDX section, during his unorthodox info search on an engine swap. Honda Physique | Le roi du honda |
looking at a recently totaled 2014 TL SH AWD in a local junkyard. bad t bone collision but engine compartment appears to be completely undamaged. Odometer says 17,899. Grandma that did not drive much? Making him an offer for us to come take it out. Somehow TB already gone. Like some ninja took it while it was being towed in. Guess I will be researching TB options.
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Only option is really the 3.7 TB out of the TL or 09-12 3.7 RL. They are both 80mm.
Originally Posted by zeta
(Post 16172096)
:rofl:
I was just thinking, that 'Fred L' guy would of came in handy for 'facepalm', over in the MDX section, during his unorthodox info search on an engine swap. Honda Physique Le roi du honda Yea buddy was out to lunch. Let's just swap in a weaker motor into a 4500lb pig.. :facepalm: indeed. |
[QUOTE=teh CL;16172139]Only option is really the 3.7 TB out of the TL or 09-12 3.7 RL. They are both 80mm.
Update and new question. No great deal to be had on this low mileage 3.7L. They say it is likely worth $2,500 to them if they list it on eBay. Too expensive for us, particularly, as Horeshoez mentioned there is the potential or likelihood of the oil consumption issues with the 3.7L pistons/rings/liners. Could not find anywhere that the solution for this has been definitively determined. Came across one comment that the second ring may be being installed incorrectly. There is a 2013 TL 3.5 engine with 27K miles for $900. This engine should be able to fit my 08 TL-S with none or only minor modifications? This 2013 3.5L is half the price and significantly less mileage than the 07-08 3.5Ls engines I am finding online. |
Yeah, there seems to be a ton of 3.5L's for the 4G TL out there. I found dozens when I was shopping around for mine.
There are some changes to the 3.5L from the 3G (J35A8) to the 4G (J35Z6) however, notably the use of a MAF instead of the MAP sensor. There might be a chance you'd have to use a 4G ECU if you went with a 4G 3.5L. But I'm afraid I'm not expert enough to tell you for sure. |
You can just swap out the MAF sensor with the MAP sensor. I did the same thing when I swapped a J37 manifold/TB on to my J35A8 (06' RL).
Originally Posted by MTyler
(Post 16172298)
Update and new question. No great deal to be had on this low mileage 3.7L. They say it is likely worth $2,500 to them if they list it on eBay. Too expensive for us, particularly, as Horeshoez mentioned there is the potential or likelihood of the oil consumption issues with the 3.7L pistons/rings/liners. Could not find anywhere that the solution for this has been definitively determined. Came across one comment that the second ring may be being installed incorrectly.
There is a 2013 TL 3.5 engine with 27K miles for $900. This engine should be able to fit my 08 TL-S with none or only minor modifications? This 2013 3.5L is half the price and significantly less mileage than the 07-08 3.5Ls engines I am finding online. There definitely is a somewhat common issue with oil burning on the 3.7 TL motors. With that said there are some folks that don't experience any oil burning, guess it's just the luck of the draw.. :shrug: . There isn't a known cure from what I've seen either. The funny thing is that I haven't heard of RL owners with the same issue. As for the 09'+ 3.5 TL motors, the same things need to be done as you would with the 3.7 motor. They share the same timing gear setup, pre cats etc etc. Would definitely be a cheap alternative, minus dual vtec and the displacement bump obviously. What are you looking to spend for a motor? I hunt for parts for the sport of it & usually can find some solid deals. Literally picked up a J35 for my 06' TL for 200 bucks.. :rofl: Send me a PM if you'd like. |
Alright so I did some more research..
If you search for pre 12' TL motors, they share more similarities with the J35A8. Same crank gear, same injectors, different coil packs but a simple depin can solve that. In my findings, you best bet if you want a 3.7 is to go with a 07-10' MDX motor. It is basically a J35A8 with a 3.7 crank stuff into it. Same timing gear, injectors, different coil packs but that's easy but the best part.... use the same pre cats as the J35A8. You don't get dual vtec but I'm sure it's a fair trade off & there's an abundance of MDX motors for great prices.. :whistle: |
Originally Posted by teh CL
(Post 16172418)
You can just swap out the MAF sensor with the MAP sensor. I did the same thing when I swapped a J37 manifold/TB on to my J35A8 (06' RL).
What mileage are you aiming for? There's a ton of 09-12 RL 3.7 motors on car-part.com for under 2gs with less than 100k, depending on your location. There definitely is a somewhat common issue with oil burning on the 3.7 TL motors. With that said there are some folks that don't experience any oil burning, guess it's just the luck of the draw.. :shrug: . There isn't a known cure from what I've seen either. The funny thing is that I haven't heard of RL owners with the same issue. As for the 09'+ 3.5 TL motors, the same things need to be done as you would with the 3.7 motor. They share the same timing gear setup, pre cats etc etc. Would definitely be a cheap alternative, minus dual vtec and the displacement bump obviously. What are you looking to spend for a motor? I hunt for parts for the sport of it & usually can find some solid deals. Literally picked up a J35 for my 06' TL for 200 bucks.. :rofl: Send me a PM if you'd like. |
I am at my new member PM quota. I meant looking for a lower mileage J35A8 not J35A4
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Originally Posted by teh CL
(Post 16172418)
You can just swap out the MAF sensor with the MAP sensor. I did the same thing when I swapped a J37 manifold/TB on to my J35A8 (06' RL).
What mileage are you aiming for? There's a ton of 09-12 RL 3.7 motors on car-part.com for under 2gs with less than 100k, depending on your location. There definitely is a somewhat common issue with oil burning on the 3.7 TL motors. With that said there are some folks that don't experience any oil burning, guess it's just the luck of the draw.. :shrug: . There isn't a known cure from what I've seen either. The funny thing is that I haven't heard of RL owners with the same issue. As for the 09'+ 3.5 TL motors, the same things need to be done as you would with the 3.7 motor. They share the same timing gear setup, pre cats etc etc. Would definitely be a cheap alternative, minus dual vtec and the displacement bump obviously. What are you looking to spend for a motor? I hunt for parts for the sport of it & usually can find some solid deals. Literally picked up a J35 for my 06' TL for 200 bucks.. :rofl: Send me a PM if you'd like. |
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