E10 fuel?
03-28-2007, 03:09 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
E10 fuel?
I took my car into the dealer a few days ago for some warranty work and asked them to check my engine because it was idling rough. Well they just called me today and said that everything checked out on the engine and that is was probably the Ethanol in the fuel.
They did not deny the fact that is was idling rough, are they just blaming it on the E10 because the don't know what the real problem is?
And is anyone else having this problem?
They did not deny the fact that is was idling rough, are they just blaming it on the E10 because the don't know what the real problem is?
And is anyone else having this problem?
03-28-2007, 03:26 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
I dont see how it can since the fuel is rated for a specific octane.....If i understand it correctly, under the correct pressure and temperature, the fuel should detonate when ignited at the specified timing and if the octane is 91 per the label, even with ethanol in it, i cannot see how it would make it idle rough. Rough Idling, I think, is probably caused by premature / retarded detonation of the fuel before/after top dead center of the piston. So this may leave the engine, not to necessairly knock, but to rather vibrate and idle roughly. Yea, fuel can cause this (the wrong octane fuel and not ethanol (IMHO)). I dont know...its a great question, and I emailed a professor that specializes in fuel and IC engines, so hopefully we can get some insight from him. Ill keep you posted!
03-28-2007, 05:51 PM
#4
I'm calling BS on this one. In arizona from the months of october through march, all gasoline sold is required to have at least 10% ethanol. So that would mean that every TL in arizona would have very rough idle, which simply isn't true. If that were the case, Honda would a huge upheaval on their hands and would have to issue a massive recall. Besides that, I could be mistaken but I'm pretty sure all cars sold in America are required to be able to run E10.
They're totalling BSing you because they either can't find the problem and don't want to put forth any more effort, or they did find the problem, realized it would cost a huge amount of money to cover under warranty, and they're just lying to you telling you it's nothing, hoping your warranty expires before something really goes wrong.
They're totalling BSing you because they either can't find the problem and don't want to put forth any more effort, or they did find the problem, realized it would cost a huge amount of money to cover under warranty, and they're just lying to you telling you it's nothing, hoping your warranty expires before something really goes wrong.
03-28-2007, 07:21 PM
#5
Advanced
umm... living in central north America growing up, ethanol was not suggested to be used on fuel injected vehicles, they say it dries up the seals on the injectors causing them to leak and/or as well as burn them out.
sure they wont freeze up gas lines in winter, but, more damage can be done in time.
this is what happened to my honda prelude that was a few years old (back in 1995) and never used ethanol since
sure they wont freeze up gas lines in winter, but, more damage can be done in time.
this is what happened to my honda prelude that was a few years old (back in 1995) and never used ethanol since
03-29-2007, 10:16 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Ok, So i got a response from the good Doctor. He stated that the fuel is most probably not the cause of the rough idling nor the inherent dynamic balancing flaws present in V6 engines. He faults the roughness to possbily one of the following and gives the following advice:
"If you are using the correct octane rating specified for this engine, which with a CR of 10.5 is probably higher than the base octane rating of 87, I suspect it is some other issue, and not related to balancing. Here are some suggestions:
1. the car may need a service with replacement of spark plugs.
2. The EGR valve may need to be replaced.
3. Check oxygen sensor and mass airflow sensor.
A Honda dealership should be able to carry out a check with a diagnostics hookup to see if any sensors have gone bad."
He did teach us that ethanol does like to deteroiate seals and such in engines but newer engines should have materials that are compatible with ethanol. Also, ethanol is replacing or has basically replaced MTBE as an oxygenating agent in fuel, so ethanol is there, like it or not. Anyways, the fuel causing rough idling seems like crap to me and I would have them check out your sensors. Tell them a Doctor (not me!) sent you. This professor has a PHD, so you can trust his words! Hope this helps and good luck!
"If you are using the correct octane rating specified for this engine, which with a CR of 10.5 is probably higher than the base octane rating of 87, I suspect it is some other issue, and not related to balancing. Here are some suggestions:
1. the car may need a service with replacement of spark plugs.
2. The EGR valve may need to be replaced.
3. Check oxygen sensor and mass airflow sensor.
A Honda dealership should be able to carry out a check with a diagnostics hookup to see if any sensors have gone bad."
He did teach us that ethanol does like to deteroiate seals and such in engines but newer engines should have materials that are compatible with ethanol. Also, ethanol is replacing or has basically replaced MTBE as an oxygenating agent in fuel, so ethanol is there, like it or not. Anyways, the fuel causing rough idling seems like crap to me and I would have them check out your sensors. Tell them a Doctor (not me!) sent you. This professor has a PHD, so you can trust his words! Hope this helps and good luck!
Trending Topics
03-29-2007, 11:05 AM
#8
Mike's Silver Bullet
See if a fillup with a different brand of gas helps. Sometimes you can get a bad batch of fuel.
It also could be a partially stuck EGR valve.
The check engine light might not come on if either of these were the culprit.
It also could be a partially stuck EGR valve.
The check engine light might not come on if either of these were the culprit.
03-29-2007, 11:45 AM
#9
I'm not sure about specific US laws, but ALL cars in Canada need to be compatiable with 10% ethanol fuel. Even the owners manual says up to 10% ethanol fuel may be used. One of the downsides of using ethanol is becaused of the increased oxygen content compared to octane, it will produce more smog than a conventional octane fuel. Some states/provinces require 10% ethanol because it is considered a renewable fuel and smog is less of an issue during winter months with colder temperatures. As long as the burning characteristics of the fuel is compatible with the octane rating, your engine should run fine. The myth about using ethanol is bad is with older cars (pre 1992) that used certain rubber hoses and fuel lines. The ethanol may degrad these lines and cause problems, but all cars built after 1992 should address this problem. we got cars running E85 or even 100% ethanol now a days, fuel lines should be improved to a point where running pure ethanol would not cause problems
03-29-2007, 11:56 AM
#10
10th Gear
Join Date: Mar 2007
Age: 45
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Non-Oxygenated Fuel
My dealer reccomends non-oxygenated fuel. No ethanol. You can buy it in MN as it is also preferred for boats, snowmobiles, etc. It is not more expensive for the most part just harder to find. I found a list of all the stations in the state that carry this and frequent them.
03-29-2007, 02:44 PM
#11
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not here. all fuel sold here has 10% ethanol.
It is hygroscopic (attracts water) which makes it bad for boats. It also reacts poorly with the resins used in boat fuel tanks causing leaks.
It is hygroscopic (attracts water) which makes it bad for boats. It also reacts poorly with the resins used in boat fuel tanks causing leaks.
03-29-2007, 03:28 PM
#12
I reiterate my statement that many states require 10% ethanol or higher, and furthremore, it states in the owner's manual that E10 is an acceptable fuel. Under NO circumstances should the use of E10 cause engine problems such as rough idle in any vehicle made in the mid-90s or later, let alone a 3G TL.
Take your car back to the stealership and tell them to fix it. Point out that the owner's manual allows the use of E10 and that therefore, they can't use E10 as an excuse for why your car idles roughly.
Take your car back to the stealership and tell them to fix it. Point out that the owner's manual allows the use of E10 and that therefore, they can't use E10 as an excuse for why your car idles roughly.
03-29-2007, 04:54 PM
#13
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well i stated just that to the service guy and he said they would take another look at it.
It just bothers me that they admitted that the car should not run like that, but the computer that they plug into the car says there was nothing wrong so they did not go any further, but obviously there is something wrong!!! What happened to the Detective Mechanics that would search out the problem instead of reading a computer screen?
It just bothers me that they admitted that the car should not run like that, but the computer that they plug into the car says there was nothing wrong so they did not go any further, but obviously there is something wrong!!! What happened to the Detective Mechanics that would search out the problem instead of reading a computer screen?
03-29-2007, 05:14 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 05anthra
Well i stated just that to the service guy and he said they would take another look at it.
It just bothers me that they admitted that the car should not run like that, but the computer that they plug into the car says there was nothing wrong so they did not go any further, but obviously there is something wrong!!! What happened to the Detective Mechanics that would search out the problem instead of reading a computer screen?
It just bothers me that they admitted that the car should not run like that, but the computer that they plug into the car says there was nothing wrong so they did not go any further, but obviously there is something wrong!!! What happened to the Detective Mechanics that would search out the problem instead of reading a computer screen?
Welcome to 2day's society! LOL. Jusssssss playin!
03-29-2007, 07:39 PM
#15
LOL...Bunch of misinformation in this thread
First of all gasolines are adjusted seasonally. Which means they have higher volatility in the winter and lower volatility in the summer. The US Government mandates to improve air quality have resulted in significant changes to gasolines, including the use of oxygenates. Ethanol, and methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) is used in the winter or the reduction of Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) in the summer. The addition of oxygenates, especially ethanol, increases volatility while the reduction of RVP reduces volatility. The higher the octane, the less volatile the fuel.
Gasoline distribution practices often do not allow branded marketers to have much control over their gasoline's volatility other than RVP. Oxygenate (e.g., ethanol, MTBE) use is more dependent on local gasoline markets, rather than specific marketers practice.
ankur914,
The fuel may not be the direct cause of a rough idle or dropping of cylinders. I agree.
60 degree V-6 engines normally are not as smooth as 90 degree V-6 engines.
V-8's generally idle smoother since they have more couterweights on the crankshaft. While it is true to some extent, many V-6's idle very smoothly including OHC engines.
The TL engine idles rough but it mostly due to the program strategy, especially when the engine is cold. They can't get the catalytic converters to lite off quick enough so they create a condition which generates more heat into the engine. Once the engine warms up, the idle strategy is altered. The rough idle is subdued.
FYI, the computer switched loop based on time, not engine coolant temperature. Most new cars go closed loop in seconds after start-up.
1) Spark plugs, I doubt it. The TL can go over 100,000 miles on the platinum spark plugs. No worries there. While I firmly believe you get a hotter spark from a full copper plug (don't argue...copper is by far a better conductor than platinum). You cannot beat the longevity of the platinum alloys. Iridium (which is not found naturally on Earth) is also one of the alloys used to make spark plug tips and plating on the grounds. That makes the electrode very thin and durable.
2) The older TL's were notorious for bad EGR valves and passage ways getting full of carbon. That would make it run bad all the time and throw a code at you. The 3rd generation TL has a better track record.
3) 02's can cause a rough idle as the PCM hunts to correct the air fuel ratio. This can be caused by a failing 02 sensor. Again the PCM would detect the 02 is out of range and throw a CEL. The 02's read in mV and when they stop switching or read way to low or way to high...the PCM throws a code. High readings generally mean a rich condition and low readings mean a lean condition.
4) The TL is a speed density system. No Mass Air meter.
Ethanol is highly corrosive due to the fact that it is alcohol. Alcohol by nature absorbs water. The fuel injectors will work fine with ethanol. The seals are buna synthetic rubber and gasoline doesn't affect them. Ethanol can deteriorate older rubber seals but most newer cars can deal with some ethanol mixture without any problems. Straight ethanol would require new fuel lines, fuel rails, seals, etc.
Just visit your local dragstrip and ask anybody running straight alcohol fuel...just how long does their fuel system last. Not very long.
SOUNDS LIKE
BS TO ME.
Ask for code...we want to see it.
A-Train
Gasoline distribution practices often do not allow branded marketers to have much control over their gasoline's volatility other than RVP. Oxygenate (e.g., ethanol, MTBE) use is more dependent on local gasoline markets, rather than specific marketers practice.
ankur914,
"Ok, So i got a response from the good Doctor. He stated that the fuel is most probably not the cause of the rough idling nor the inherent dynamic balancing flaws present in V6 engines. He faults the roughness to possibly one of the following and gives the following advice"
60 degree V-6 engines normally are not as smooth as 90 degree V-6 engines.
V-8's generally idle smoother since they have more couterweights on the crankshaft. While it is true to some extent, many V-6's idle very smoothly including OHC engines.
The TL engine idles rough but it mostly due to the program strategy, especially when the engine is cold. They can't get the catalytic converters to lite off quick enough so they create a condition which generates more heat into the engine. Once the engine warms up, the idle strategy is altered. The rough idle is subdued.
FYI, the computer switched loop based on time, not engine coolant temperature. Most new cars go closed loop in seconds after start-up.
1) Spark plugs, I doubt it. The TL can go over 100,000 miles on the platinum spark plugs. No worries there. While I firmly believe you get a hotter spark from a full copper plug (don't argue...copper is by far a better conductor than platinum). You cannot beat the longevity of the platinum alloys. Iridium (which is not found naturally on Earth) is also one of the alloys used to make spark plug tips and plating on the grounds. That makes the electrode very thin and durable.
2) The older TL's were notorious for bad EGR valves and passage ways getting full of carbon. That would make it run bad all the time and throw a code at you. The 3rd generation TL has a better track record.
3) 02's can cause a rough idle as the PCM hunts to correct the air fuel ratio. This can be caused by a failing 02 sensor. Again the PCM would detect the 02 is out of range and throw a CEL. The 02's read in mV and when they stop switching or read way to low or way to high...the PCM throws a code. High readings generally mean a rich condition and low readings mean a lean condition.
4) The TL is a speed density system. No Mass Air meter.
Ethanol is highly corrosive due to the fact that it is alcohol. Alcohol by nature absorbs water. The fuel injectors will work fine with ethanol. The seals are buna synthetic rubber and gasoline doesn't affect them. Ethanol can deteriorate older rubber seals but most newer cars can deal with some ethanol mixture without any problems. Straight ethanol would require new fuel lines, fuel rails, seals, etc.
Just visit your local dragstrip and ask anybody running straight alcohol fuel...just how long does their fuel system last. Not very long.
SOUNDS LIKE
BS TO ME.Ask for code...we want to see it.
A-Train
03-30-2007, 08:09 AM
#16
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Atrain
First of all gasolines are adjusted seasonally. Which means they have higher volatility in the winter and lower volatility in the summer. The US Government mandates to improve air quality have resulted in significant changes to gasolines, including the use of oxygenates. Ethanol, and methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) is used in the winter or the reduction of Reid Vapor Pressure (RVP) in the summer. The addition of oxygenates, especially ethanol, increases volatility while the reduction of RVP reduces volatility. The higher the octane, the less volatile the fuel.
Gasoline distribution practices often do not allow branded marketers to have much control over their gasoline's volatility other than RVP. Oxygenate (e.g., ethanol, MTBE) use is more dependent on local gasoline markets, rather than specific marketers practice.
ankur914,
The fuel may not be the direct cause of a rough idle or dropping of cylinders. I agree.
60 degree V-6 engines normally are not as smooth as 90 degree V-6 engines.
V-8's generally idle smoother since they have more couterweights on the crankshaft. While it is true to some extent, many V-6's idle very smoothly including OHC engines.
The TL engine idles rough but it mostly due to the program strategy, especially when the engine is cold. They can't get the catalytic converters to lite off quick enough so they create a condition which generates more heat into the engine. Once the engine warms up, the idle strategy is altered. The rough idle is subdued.
FYI, the computer switched loop based on time, not engine coolant temperature. Most new cars go closed loop in seconds after start-up.
1) Spark plugs, I doubt it. The TL can go over 100,000 miles on the platinum spark plugs. No worries there. While I firmly believe you get a hotter spark from a full copper plug (don't argue...copper is by far a better conductor than platinum). You cannot beat the longevity of the platinum alloys. Iridium (which is not found naturally on Earth) is also one of the alloys used to make spark plug tips and plating on the grounds. That makes the electrode very thin and durable.
2) The older TL's were notorious for bad EGR valves and passage ways getting full of carbon. That would make it run bad all the time and throw a code at you. The 3rd generation TL has a better track record.
3) 02's can cause a rough idle as the PCM hunts to correct the air fuel ratio. This can be caused by a failing 02 sensor. Again the PCM would detect the 02 is out of range and throw a CEL. The 02's read in mV and when they stop switching or read way to low or way to high...the PCM throws a code. High readings generally mean a rich condition and low readings mean a lean condition.
4) The TL is a speed density system. No Mass Air meter.
Ethanol is highly corrosive due to the fact that it is alcohol. Alcohol by nature absorbs water. The fuel injectors will work fine with ethanol. The seals are buna synthetic rubber and gasoline doesn't affect them. Ethanol can deteriorate older rubber seals but most newer cars can deal with some ethanol mixture without any problems. Straight ethanol would require new fuel lines, fuel rails, seals, etc.
Just visit your local dragstrip and ask anybody running straight alcohol fuel...just how long does their fuel system last. Not very long.
SOUNDS LIKE BS TO ME.
Ask for code...we want to see it.
A-Train
Gasoline distribution practices often do not allow branded marketers to have much control over their gasoline's volatility other than RVP. Oxygenate (e.g., ethanol, MTBE) use is more dependent on local gasoline markets, rather than specific marketers practice.
ankur914,
The fuel may not be the direct cause of a rough idle or dropping of cylinders. I agree.
60 degree V-6 engines normally are not as smooth as 90 degree V-6 engines.
V-8's generally idle smoother since they have more couterweights on the crankshaft. While it is true to some extent, many V-6's idle very smoothly including OHC engines.
The TL engine idles rough but it mostly due to the program strategy, especially when the engine is cold. They can't get the catalytic converters to lite off quick enough so they create a condition which generates more heat into the engine. Once the engine warms up, the idle strategy is altered. The rough idle is subdued.
FYI, the computer switched loop based on time, not engine coolant temperature. Most new cars go closed loop in seconds after start-up.
1) Spark plugs, I doubt it. The TL can go over 100,000 miles on the platinum spark plugs. No worries there. While I firmly believe you get a hotter spark from a full copper plug (don't argue...copper is by far a better conductor than platinum). You cannot beat the longevity of the platinum alloys. Iridium (which is not found naturally on Earth) is also one of the alloys used to make spark plug tips and plating on the grounds. That makes the electrode very thin and durable.
2) The older TL's were notorious for bad EGR valves and passage ways getting full of carbon. That would make it run bad all the time and throw a code at you. The 3rd generation TL has a better track record.
3) 02's can cause a rough idle as the PCM hunts to correct the air fuel ratio. This can be caused by a failing 02 sensor. Again the PCM would detect the 02 is out of range and throw a CEL. The 02's read in mV and when they stop switching or read way to low or way to high...the PCM throws a code. High readings generally mean a rich condition and low readings mean a lean condition.
4) The TL is a speed density system. No Mass Air meter.
Ethanol is highly corrosive due to the fact that it is alcohol. Alcohol by nature absorbs water. The fuel injectors will work fine with ethanol. The seals are buna synthetic rubber and gasoline doesn't affect them. Ethanol can deteriorate older rubber seals but most newer cars can deal with some ethanol mixture without any problems. Straight ethanol would require new fuel lines, fuel rails, seals, etc.
Just visit your local dragstrip and ask anybody running straight alcohol fuel...just how long does their fuel system last. Not very long.
SOUNDS LIKE
BS TO ME.Ask for code...we want to see it.
A-Train
Thanks for the info! But in my professor's defense (due to my ignorance when providing him with inormation) he did not know the age of the motor or how many miles were on it. All I had told him was that it was a 3.2L Honda Motor with a 10.5/11:1 compression ratio and it runs with 91 octane in it and idles rough. If you look at his response, he has the same expectations as you; hes expecting a code. But heres a question, could it be due to the oil used and/or oil sludging (if that even happens on Honda motors this young..) and/or lack of changing the oil ??? Or could it be a result of the fuel filter(needs replacement?)? It just seems like it should pop a code, but hasnt according to the OP.....
03-30-2007, 09:38 AM
#17
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to answer some of your Questions.
It is a 2005 TL w/ 24K miles.
I have never run less then Premium gas through it.
And I change the oil every 3K and just change it to Mobile One last month.
I agree it should be throwing a code, but for some reason it is not.
What do you think my chances are on them giving me a good deal on a TL-S, if they can't find the problem?
It is a 2005 TL w/ 24K miles.
I have never run less then Premium gas through it.
And I change the oil every 3K and just change it to Mobile One last month.
I agree it should be throwing a code, but for some reason it is not.
What do you think my chances are on them giving me a good deal on a TL-S, if they can't find the problem?
03-30-2007, 09:52 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 05anthra
Just to answer some of your Questions.
It is a 2005 TL w/ 24K miles.
I have never run less then Premium gas through it.
And I change the oil every 3K and just change it to Mobile One last month.
I agree it should be throwing a code, but for some reason it is not.
What do you think my chances are on them giving me a good deal on a TL-S, if they can't find the problem?
It is a 2005 TL w/ 24K miles.
I have never run less then Premium gas through it.
And I change the oil every 3K and just change it to Mobile One last month.
I agree it should be throwing a code, but for some reason it is not.
What do you think my chances are on them giving me a good deal on a TL-S, if they can't find the problem?
Yea...i figured....if you are in-tune with your car to realize its idling rough, i didnt expect you to neglect your car. But hey, i would try to guilt them to giving you a great deal on a TL-S! Below Invoice Price!!!
Good luck! Hope they either solve your problem or upgrade you not a fair price, but at a great price (theyll make more money upgrading you by giving you the best deal ever than doing warranty work (not only do they save on the warranty work, but if you trade, theyll make mad money off your 2005 TL).
03-30-2007, 07:12 PM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Sector 001
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2005 TL Owner's Manual Fuel Recommendation
Your vehicle is designed to operate on premium unleaded gasoline with a pump octane of 91 or higher. If this octane grade is unavailable, regular unleaded gasoline with a pump octane of 86 or higher may be used temporarily. The use of regular unleaded gasoline can cause metallic knocking noises in the engine and
will result in decreased engine performance. The long-term use of regular-grade gasoline can lead to engine damage.
We recommend quality gasolines containing detergent additives that help prevent fuel system and engine deposits.
In addition, in order to maintain good performance, fuel economy, and emissions control, we strongly recommend, in areas where it is available, the use of gasoline that does NOT contain manganese-based fuel additives such as MMT.
Use of gasoline with these additives may adversely affect performance, and cause the malfunction indicator lamp on your instrument panel to come on. If this happens, contact your dealer for service.
Some gasoline today is blended with oxygenates such as ethanol or MTBE. Your vehicle is designed to operate on oxygenated gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol by volume and up to 15% MTBE by volume. Do not use gasoline containing methanol.
If your notice any undesirable operating symptoms, try another service station, or switch to another brand of gasoline.
will result in decreased engine performance. The long-term use of regular-grade gasoline can lead to engine damage.
We recommend quality gasolines containing detergent additives that help prevent fuel system and engine deposits.
In addition, in order to maintain good performance, fuel economy, and emissions control, we strongly recommend, in areas where it is available, the use of gasoline that does NOT contain manganese-based fuel additives such as MMT.
Use of gasoline with these additives may adversely affect performance, and cause the malfunction indicator lamp on your instrument panel to come on. If this happens, contact your dealer for service.
Some gasoline today is blended with oxygenates such as ethanol or MTBE. Your vehicle is designed to operate on oxygenated gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol by volume and up to 15% MTBE by volume. Do not use gasoline containing methanol.
If your notice any undesirable operating symptoms, try another service station, or switch to another brand of gasoline.
04-04-2007, 05:03 PM
#22
Instructor
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fwiw, E10 is ok, but higher is not. And it's possible, depending on where you are, to accidently get higher amounts from a particular station. so it would be good to try another station for your next fillup.
These cars will idle roughly when first started. It has to do with reducing emissions to get that ULEV rating. But it should go away in a few minutes.
These cars will idle roughly when first started. It has to do with reducing emissions to get that ULEV rating. But it should go away in a few minutes.
04-04-2007, 06:06 PM
#23
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Atrain
60 degree V-6 engines normally are not as smooth as 90 degree V-6 engines.
V-8's generally idle smoother since they have more couterweights on the crankshaft.
Ask for code...we want to see it.
And the question for 05anthra: Can you describe that rough idling? Di you hear misfiring (listen to the tail pipe), or it is just unstable rpm?
04-09-2007, 08:39 AM
#24
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mishar
Not true. Actually, it is just the opposite.
They idle smoother because they have more cylinders and because two plane crankshafts provide balancing between cylinder banks.
Well, there is no code.
And the question for 05anthra: Can you describe that rough idling? Di you hear misfiring (listen to the tail pipe), or it is just unstable rpm?
They idle smoother because they have more cylinders and because two plane crankshafts provide balancing between cylinder banks.
Well, there is no code.
And the question for 05anthra: Can you describe that rough idling? Di you hear misfiring (listen to the tail pipe), or it is just unstable rpm?
Mishar
It does not seem to be a misfire its more of an unstable RPM.
04-09-2007, 12:42 PM
#25
This is copied and pasted DIRECTLY from Acura Owner Link:
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Acura's position on these fuels?
Do not use gasoline containing MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl). MMT is a gasoline additive that is used by some refiners to boost octane. It contains the metal manganese. This additive contaminates your engine components and exhaust emission control system, and can lead to a significant increase in emissions and a loss in performance and fuel economy. Damage caused by the use of fuels containing MMT mat not be covered under warranty. Gasoline containing MMT is not common in the United States. It is prohibited in federal reformulated gasoline and in all California gasoline. However, MMT has been found in some fuels in the Southwest, mountain states, and the northwest area of New York State. MMT is more prevalent in gasoline sold in Canada, but lately many MMT-free fuels have become available. Regardless of location, the presence of MMT in the fuel will not be indicated on the pump, so it is important to ask your fueling station if their gasoline contains this additive. Alternatively, you may contact the customer service department of your preferred fuel brand with this question.
Some conventional gasolines are being blended with alcohol or an ether compound. These gasolines are collectively referred to as "oxygenated fuels." To meet clean air standards, some areas of the U.S. and Canada use these fuels to help reduce emissions. If you use an oxygenated fuel, be sure it is unleaded and meets the minimum octane rating requirement described in your Owner's Manual.
Before using an oxygenated fuel, try to confirm the fuel's contents. Some states/provinces require this information to be posted on the pump.
The following are the EPA-approved percentages of oxygenates:
ETHANOL (ethyl or grain alcohol): You may use gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol by volume.
MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether): You may use gasoline containing up to 15% MTBE by volume.
METHANOL (methyl or wood alcohol): Gasoline containing methanol is not common in North America. Your vehicle was not designed to use fuel that contains methanol. Methanol can damage fuel system components. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms, try another service station or switch to another brand of gasoline.
Some gas stations in our area sell oxygenated fuels or fuels that contain other additives. What's Acura's position on these fuels?
Do not use gasoline containing MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl). MMT is a gasoline additive that is used by some refiners to boost octane. It contains the metal manganese. This additive contaminates your engine components and exhaust emission control system, and can lead to a significant increase in emissions and a loss in performance and fuel economy. Damage caused by the use of fuels containing MMT mat not be covered under warranty. Gasoline containing MMT is not common in the United States. It is prohibited in federal reformulated gasoline and in all California gasoline. However, MMT has been found in some fuels in the Southwest, mountain states, and the northwest area of New York State. MMT is more prevalent in gasoline sold in Canada, but lately many MMT-free fuels have become available. Regardless of location, the presence of MMT in the fuel will not be indicated on the pump, so it is important to ask your fueling station if their gasoline contains this additive. Alternatively, you may contact the customer service department of your preferred fuel brand with this question.
Some conventional gasolines are being blended with alcohol or an ether compound. These gasolines are collectively referred to as "oxygenated fuels." To meet clean air standards, some areas of the U.S. and Canada use these fuels to help reduce emissions. If you use an oxygenated fuel, be sure it is unleaded and meets the minimum octane rating requirement described in your Owner's Manual.
Before using an oxygenated fuel, try to confirm the fuel's contents. Some states/provinces require this information to be posted on the pump.
The following are the EPA-approved percentages of oxygenates:
ETHANOL (ethyl or grain alcohol): You may use gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol by volume.
MTBE (Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether): You may use gasoline containing up to 15% MTBE by volume.
METHANOL (methyl or wood alcohol): Gasoline containing methanol is not common in North America. Your vehicle was not designed to use fuel that contains methanol. Methanol can damage fuel system components. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
Fuels that exceed the EPA's approved oxygenate percentages for conventional and reformulated gasolines must be clearly labeled on the pump. One example of such a fuel is "E85," which contains 85% ethanol. Do not use such fuels in your vehicle. These fuels will cause performance problems, and may damage your vehicle's engine, fuel system, and emission control system. This damage would not be covered under warranty.
If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms, try another service station or switch to another brand of gasoline.
04-09-2007, 11:39 PM
#26
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 429
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 05anthra
It does not seem to be a misfire its more of an unstable RPM.
Not showing any code excludes all sensors. To me it looks like faulty Idle Air Control Valve. It also could be manifold air leak. That one would produce humming sound that disappears the moment you touch gas pedal.
04-10-2007, 10:03 AM
#27
Mike's Silver Bullet
Can you give us a little more information on what you mean by unstable RPM?
How much does the RPM fluctuate? Can you see it fluctuate on the Tach? How long does it take to fluctuate? When it's cold outside? hot outside? When the engine is cold? hot?
Stuff like that helps.
Thanks!
How much does the RPM fluctuate? Can you see it fluctuate on the Tach? How long does it take to fluctuate? When it's cold outside? hot outside? When the engine is cold? hot?
Stuff like that helps.
Thanks!
04-13-2007, 02:33 PM
#28
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best way to discribe it is a noticable continuous vibration in the seat and it does not matter if the engine is cold or hot it haapens at anytime. Even when the A/C is off it is still noticable. I know that there is sometimes a slight roughness in the idle at start up, but i think mine is a more then just slight, it even causes the radar detector on my windshield to shake.
????
I do not fill up at the same gas station every time, so the fuel is not the issue.
Do other people have the same issue or is this an isolated problem that i am just having?
????
I do not fill up at the same gas station every time, so the fuel is not the issue.
Do other people have the same issue or is this an isolated problem that i am just having?
04-13-2007, 02:40 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 05anthra
The best way to discribe it is a noticable continuous vibration in the seat and it does not matter if the engine is cold or hot it haapens at anytime. Even when the A/C is off it is still noticable. I know that there is sometimes a slight roughness in the idle at start up, but i think mine is a more then just slight, it even causes the radar detector on my windshield to shake.
????
I do not fill up at the same gas station every time, so the fuel is not the issue.
Do other people have the same issue or is this an isolated problem that i am just having?
????
I do not fill up at the same gas station every time, so the fuel is not the issue.
Do other people have the same issue or is this an isolated problem that i am just having?
I have a slight vibration in my steering wheel that you can only notice if you hold on to it (nothing visible like you seeing the steering wheel move +- 1mm), but nothing to the magnitude that makes my radar detector shake. That thing sits perfectly still.....I think you have more than usual vibration than any engine should have....maybe its your engine mounts/bracing or whatever they call those things that take the thrust of engine movement....Just curious, you ever try to get a deal on the 07 TL-S???
04-13-2007, 03:11 PM
#30
Mike's Silver Bullet
What did they do to get it to run fine for the one day?
Does it run fine otherwise?
Does it feel like a spark miss, or is it just rough?
Now I'm curious.
Does it run fine otherwise?
Does it feel like a spark miss, or is it just rough?
Now I'm curious.
04-13-2007, 04:28 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by sandynmike
What did they do to get it to run fine for the one day?
Does it run fine otherwise?
Does it feel like a spark miss, or is it just rough?
Now I'm curious.
Does it run fine otherwise?
Does it feel like a spark miss, or is it just rough?
Now I'm curious.
Hahahaha...You're curious george like me!
04-19-2007, 04:12 PM
#32
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When they called to tell me that the car was ready I asked if they had fixed the vibration and he said "yes". When I went to go pick it up they said that they had added a fuel additive and they could not get it to occur again. So they deamed it fixed. After driving it for a few days and still on the same tank it started to shake again. I am thinking of taking it into another dealership and see what they say about the situation but i just wanted to see if anyone else is having the same porblem.
I talk to the dealer about a TYPE-S and they quoted me MSRP plus $300 for Nitrogren filled tires and tint. I asked them why they qouted MSRP and the salesman said that the car was highly desired and that is why they are quoting MSRP. I then asked if they were so desirable why is your lot filled with 20 of them and he really did not have much to say and they also did not come down much on their price so i decided to wait for the 2009.
I talk to the dealer about a TYPE-S and they quoted me MSRP plus $300 for Nitrogren filled tires and tint. I asked them why they qouted MSRP and the salesman said that the car was highly desired and that is why they are quoting MSRP. I then asked if they were so desirable why is your lot filled with 20 of them and he really did not have much to say and they also did not come down much on their price so i decided to wait for the 2009.
04-19-2007, 04:16 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by 05anthra
When they called to tell me that the car was ready I asked if they had fixed the vibration and he said "yes". When I went to go pick it up they said that they had added a fuel additive and they could not get it to occur again. So they deamed it fixed. After driving it for a few days and still on the same tank it started to shake again. I am thinking of taking it into another dealership and see what they say about the situation but i just wanted to see if anyone else is having the same porblem.
I talk to the dealer about a TYPE-S and they quoted me MSRP plus $300 for Nitrogren filled tires and tint. I asked them why they qouted MSRP and the salesman said that the car was highly desired and that is why they are quoting MSRP. I then asked if they were so desirable why is your lot filled with 20 of them and he really did not have much to say and they also did not come down much on their price so i decided to wait for the 2009.
I talk to the dealer about a TYPE-S and they quoted me MSRP plus $300 for Nitrogren filled tires and tint. I asked them why they qouted MSRP and the salesman said that the car was highly desired and that is why they are quoting MSRP. I then asked if they were so desirable why is your lot filled with 20 of them and he really did not have much to say and they also did not come down much on their price so i decided to wait for the 2009.
Fixing with a fuel additive?!?! What a dealership, uhh, stealership! Sorry to hear its not working out. I think people have been gettin TL-S's for invoice...but not too sure on that. Keep us posted!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
joflewbyu2
5G TLX (2015-2020)
105
08-18-2019 10:38 PM
ExcelerateRep
4G TL Performance Parts & Modifications
8
10-14-2015 08:20 AM
joflewbyu2
5G TLX (2015-2020)
139
10-08-2015 11:16 AM
