DRIVELINE - LIKE NEW! Full autopsy of replacing EVERYTHING front end at 178k
 

I'm seeing a bevy of threads inquiring if one should purchase a higher mileage TL or if they should keep/sell, which in all honesty is a pretty serious question to be asking given the financial risks found therein. Therefore, it is my hope that this thread helps provide a reference points for anyone at such a juncture in the road as to what can be expected in the long run and for those whom are looking to restore “like new” conditions.

BACKGROUND: Having paid off the TL at around 175k I was left with the same decision most TL owners face and that is

(a) keep it and just minimize maintenance until slow death
(b) Ante up on a new whip
(c) Replace some stuff
(d) Boil the ocean and make what is old, new again

For purposes of this thread, I chose OPTION D, what with having two kids, a mortgage, and all of those other adult-founded financial incidentals and obligations.

While the TL has been a true gem insofar as the powertrain is concerned, the driveline at 178k was less-than-stellar given some of the more maintenance challenges roads I've endured. Having saved up for the best 20 months or so for what was planned to be a downpayment, this little stash was to going to try and make this a TL reborn. I mapped out all suspect components contributing to vibration and geernal driveline performance under the assumption that, over time, all rubber components will oxidize, stiffen, and lose damping ability. Once the components were selected, I met up with AZine’s acrdr to discuss installation dates and things were set. Here’s the method – results and conclusions are at the end.

ALL CREDIT FOR THE MAINTENANCE HEREIN GOES TO PAUL SOBSTYL. Paul is an experienced Honda/Acura mechanic and a sponsored vendor on Azine. He is located in Clifton, NJ. His number is 201-562-8576 and his thread can be found BY CLICKING HERE in which you'll find nothing but deservedly beaming reviews. IT WILL BE WELL WORTH THE DRIVE!

So let's get on with it. Here's the full anatomy of the patient :thumbsup:

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SPARKPLUGS and SEALS

Obviously needed replacing, the seals were mildly stiff but nothing to warrant concern. These were replaced for good measure...not by my request. Paul recommended we go ahead and do this, because that's the grade of mechanic Paul is. :toocool:

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VALVE ADJUSTMENT, SEALS, PCV

I held off on this at the 100k service since Hamilton Honda wanted a hefty fee to do so, so we chomped at the bit given the fractional cost being charged.

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MOTOR MOUNTS

Surprisingly, no failures, but all of the rubber is dry rotted worse than that rubber you carried around in the 9th grade. The engine would noticeably rock upon acceleration, which has since gone the wayside since being replaced. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FOR ANYONE ABOVE 150k.

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TRANSMISSION MOUNTS (MANUAL TRANSMISSION)

Ok, so here's where we can see some serious breakdowns in the life expectancy department. You can see two of these guys were SHOT and well in need of replacement. Note that this is for a MANUAL, although a few of these items are common to the automatic gearbox.

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CONTROL ARMS

DON’T LET LOOKS DECIEVE – the compliance bushings are indeed shot and do not show the tear region unless deflection is applied…this is simply how they look removed. The second image shows the front shock absorber bushing, which is pretty well dry rotten and showing separation in the rubber. The lower front bushing looks to be in decent shape, but again – not much give. It’s really stiff. Lastly are the endlinks, but fuck those endlinks.

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UPPER CONTROL ARM

The mounting pin was very, very tough to move, but in spite of the matter I was rather surprised to find minimal amounts of oxidation in the grease…which, of course, is a good sign that there’s no excess friction overheating the lubricant. In hindsight, though, I should have changed out with adjustable camber as I’m still out of spec in spite of alignment.

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http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...%20Knuckle.jpg

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BALL JOINTS, INNER & OUTER TIE RODS

I cannot make any reasonable statements about the ball joints as they took a beating on their way out of the car…so I can only leave you with your own assessments and conclusions. The tie rods, on the other hand, while did not evidence any excess play by virtue of the traditional “jack and shake” method, showed heavy oxidation in the grease and stunk to high heaven when the boot was sliced open.

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SHOES, BALANCE, ALIGNMENT

An alignment was performed in order to bring everything in to the green. In addition to the matter, I swapped out my 18” wheels for 17” wheels such that I could really beef up the sidewall. Not gonna lie…the 18” wheels looked much, MUCH better. I am currently running Pirelli Cinturato P7s (All-Season Plus) in 255/40 R17. They are the quietest tire I’ve ever owned.

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/_Ima...eason-Plus.jpg

http://i369.photobucket.com/albums/o...t%20Before.jpg

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<<NOT PICTURED>> ROTORS, BRAKES

Since we’re on the warpath, rotors and pads were changed out as well.

FLUIDS…and PS PUMP

I’m an avid AMSOIL user and have been since I owned the car. I’ll be changing to GM Synchromesh (Friction Modified) this weekend. The PS pump seals are all shot, but I want to tackle that one on my own and can do so thanks to Jeremy’s awesome DIY (Rockstar143).

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RESULTS
INCREDIBLE. FREAKING INCREDIBLE! All vibrations are gone, man, GONE! It is difficult to capture in words just how successful this endeavor was in restoring that “NEW CAR” drive feel. The maintenance was done about a month ago and I waited to see how everything settled out before posting. I’m driving an ENTRELY different car.

CONCLUSIONS
The powertrain mechanics of the TL are wholly robust and should serve anyone well for a long, long time should proper maintenance practices be employed. For those of us, both long milers and age-old owners, restoring that “new” feeling is within reach if you’re willing to commit to some level of investment, which may include a wholesale change of wearable components. Given the amount of modification on my car (for you newbies – it’s A LOT), this was the right choice. Hopefully this will help you determine if it’s the same.

Great thread! Is that upper transmission mount actually bad? Mine looks like that and I have a spare in storage but I thought it was bad if the legs were cracked and not the webbing between the legs?

It's not stated but what end links did you replace the original with? I replaced with MOOG but went back to OEM because the OEM was actually beefier and more sturdy than the front MOOG end links. For the rear it's not the same case, MOOG is beefier

Great thread. Thanks for sharing.

Good stuff! Thanks for sharing, and I hope you enjoy your TL for many, many years to come. :thumbsup:

Thank you so much for sharing! I'm at 148k miles, so I will be doing a lot of these soon. Do you mind sharing how much the total cost for everything came out to?

I have replaced everything on there except the engine/transmission mounts myself. Makes a world of difference.

LOL same, just recently too, It makes a big diff:thumbsup:

Great write up

Didn't change the front wheel bearings?

great thread, I too recently replace the whole suspension in my Lexus and let me tell you the feeling during driving is a world different than before.

This is really a great thread, and very encouraging for our cars which are now older and higher mileage (mine is at 110K). Anyway, have you (or at what mileage did you) changed out the shocks? Mine seem to be good with no leaks and the ride seems really good (so no excessive float over bumps and no rattles/ shakes). As always, I'm wondering if it's beneficial to change the shocks based on mileage despite the fact that the car seems to run fine.

Also, at 175K, how out of spec were the valves?

Anyway, cheers to the next 175+K miles!

Everything was replaced w/ OEM parts purchased from Acura up in Paul's neck of the woods.

AH, good point - the front axles were changed maybe a year or two ago, EXCELLENT point that I should have noted in the thread.

Originally changed around 68k to the HT Spec-II, which was one of the very few regrettable choices I've made over the modding years. I believe I went to the A-Spec suspension around 110k or so (It's recorded in my service manual), which are holding up...eh...ok at 178k. I'll probably replace for the same or Tein SA when I take it back to Paul for the 200k service.

That much I don't know...I didn't ask Paul at the time. :tomato:

ACURA PARTS - $1200
NGK IRIDIUMS - $60
AMSOIL PRODUCTS - $165 (includes cabin and intake filters)
BRAKEMOTIVE SET - $145
OPTIMA RED TOP - $180
PARTS TOTAL = $1710

I will not disclose the labor costs but it was EASILY less than half of what a dealership would have charged. :thumbsup:

And for everyone else, thanks for the kind words - looks as though my intention of providing equal parts insight and a sense of relief for the higher-milers was achieved. :)

I have the following parts pending install, and I'm at 205000 miles:
- front wheel bearings, I know for sure the front driver side is bad
- front lower ball joints
- front lower control arms with bushings already pressed in

The VTEC solenoid gasket by the oil filter was also leaking by about 180000 miles, this is one you should check. I recently changed the front valve cover gasket and some bolt grommets also, the rear is completely fine. I originally thought that the front camshaft thrust cover o-ring was leaking, so I replaced it, that wasn't the case. This seems to have to do with the front valve cover directly hitting cold air during the winter, the rubber gaskets get hard and start letting oil seep through. The key is to keep the engine plastic cover on, this prevents the degradation of those front valve cover rubber gaskets. You should also check if the power steering pump is seeping fluid. I resealed the whole pump at 170000 miles, because it started to seep fluid. I changed out all 3 transmission mounts a couple months back, but they seemed fine though. I then changed out the brush for the alternator, which had only perhaps 3 to 4mm left. I even bought a backup used alternator that came off a car with only 55k miles. I suppose I'm a little paranoid. Today, I also changed out the 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches, these two take all but 10 minutes while you are in the driver's wheel well area.

My front valve cover spark plug tube seals are fine, so I didn't touch them. No oil seeping through into the tubes at 205000 miles.

I hope you resurfaced the rotors or got new rotors with new pads, or the new pads will get scoured.

Awesome info! I think someone should make a list in a table or summary of all the things that should be replaced and when in ONE post after 60k miles for EVERYTHING from sway bar end links to spark plugs.

OP,
before all this work, did you ever experience creaking noise and a feeling in the steering wheel while turning at very low speeds such as parking into or out of a spot?

This is beautiful. :bow:

In regards to the valve adjustment, was there any difference in the engine sound and idle? I'm at 166k miles myself so Im not far behind you, but I've never done a valve adjustment so I'm just wondering how much of a difference it could make

205000, no valve adjustment. It's not super loud, then I'm not touching it.

^^ The only issue here is that loud = loose valves, so no real big deal
Quiet valvetrain is good, except for potential of burned valves, so no good. However, I assume if the car is otherwise running well, and there's no valvetrain noise, all should be good. My TL is at 110K miles and I haven't taken the intiative to get the valves adjusted.

OP any thoughts on my comment above?

I've not noticed anything of significance. Were the work not being done at such an affordable rate, I'd not have done the valves.

The fraying you're observing are small portions of rubber that remain after the component is pulled from the mold at the time of manufacture and do not represent any type of functional defect.

The mount did not fail in spite of it's age, but the rubber is indeed quite stiff. I've no doubt I could have left nearly all of the bushings in place for another 20k, but I'm a MUCH happier driver with the loss of vibrations.

Heck yeah! Thanks! This should be a sticky for when we all hit that mileage and age with our TLs!

awesome write up I'm sure it feels great having the "new" car feel

Great stuff. Doing major maintenance always feels great. I bet changing all those worn parts all at once must make a night and day difference. :thumbsup:

wow nicely done. your car will last another 100k without big problem.

Nice write up. This community is still great that I can find very informative post like this one every now and then.

My car is not near 175k, but it is a good reminder that when properly maintained, the car can be enjoyable for years.

thanks! might need to give paul a visit

Good informative post. I suppose you could have had a cumulative affect of multiple components being worn to some extend. But I bet one of the components was likely the main cause of the vibrations. It's nice though to have all new parts..like starting over again :thumbsup:

Nice. I've got Paul doing my compliance bushings. I'm only at 106k and I replaced my front/side mounts already with XLR8's mounts. I'm around 35k on Koni yellows. I'll probably do the transmission mounts, damper and sway bar end links sometime next year, and check the rear engine mount again, since the XLR8 one is still sitting in the box.

Paul is the ONLY mechanic allowed to touch my car. He's honest, highly competent, and his prices can save you 100's or even 1,000's of dollars versus a stealership.

Over the last year, he did/replaced my:
- Timing belt/water pump job
- Adjusted the valves
- Motor mounts
- Rear stabilizer links and brackets
- PCV Valve
- Headlamp bulbs
- Headlamp ignitor
- Rear wheel spindle
- Horns
- Spark plugs
- All hoses
- A few other things I can't remember right now

The only thing he couldn't do was my clutch and flywheel because they absolutely require a lift, something he unfortunately doesn't have. And believe me, if he could have done that job, I would have given it to him without the slightest 2nd thought.

I'm at 226K and still chugging right along. His #'s 201-562-8576 / 9280

PAUL -> :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
.
.

Deathmetal, thanks so much for documenting all of that! I'm in the same exact position as yourself, and to be honest I have been leaning towards option "a". After seeing how affordable all of this was for you, I am highly considering doing the same.

I am not from NJ, nor have I ever met Paul, but can someone shed some light on how much he charges roughly (is it by the job, hour, etc.)? Does he work out of a shop or simply his personal home garage?

If he really is that great and cheap, I would highly consider making the drive up to have him knock all the work out.

Deathmetal - Would you happen to have an excel document with all the parts numbers for everything you ordered? I've noticed in your previous threads how excellent you are at documenting/tracking everything, so I figured it was worth asking.

Awesome description DeathMetal :thumbsup:

CLICK ON THE HEADER FOR A LINK TO THE DIAGRAM

MOTOR MOUNTS
ENGINE MOUNTS RUBBER ASSY., RR. ENGINE MOUNTING (MT) 1 50810-SEP-A12
ENGINE MOUNTS RUBBER ASSY., ENGINE SIDE MOUNTING (MT) 1 50820-SEP-A12
ENGINE MOUNTS RUBBER ASSY., FR. ENGINE MOUNTING (MT) 1 50830-SEP-A13
ENGINE MOUNTS RUBBER, FR. ENGINE MOUNTING HEAT INS. 1 50839-SDB-A01
ENGINE MOUNTS INSULATOR, RR. ENGINE MOUNTINGHEAT 1 50819-SDB-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x60) x 2 2 90127-S73-000
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (12x35) x 1 1 90161-SDA-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x35) x 2 2 90163-SDA-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x20) x 8 8 90163-S5A-000
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (12x65) x 3 3 95701-12065-08

TRANSMISSION MOUNTS
MT MOUNTS DAMPER ASSY., RR. ENGINE ROCK (TQ DMPR) 1 50829-SEP-A02
MT MOUNTS RUBBER, FR. TRANSMISSION MOUNTING 1 50850-SEP-A12
MT MOUNTS RUBBER, RR. TRANSMISSION MOUNTING (MT) 1 50860-SEP-A12
MT MOUNTS RUBBER, TRANSMISSION MOUNTING (UPPER) 1 50870-SEP-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x35) 1 90161-SEP-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x50) 1 90163-SEP-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x20) 2 95701-10020-08
HARDWARE FLANGE NUT (10mm) 3 90361-SEP-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x75) 1 90167-SEP-A10
HARDWARE SPECIAL BOLT (10x34) 1 90162-SDA-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x62) 1 90169-SDA-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x45) 1 95701-10045-08

LOWER FRONT ARM
LCA BUSHINGS COMPLIANCE BUSHING 2 51394-SEP-A01
LCA BUSHINGS FRONT ARM LOWER BUSHING 2 51393-SEP-A01
LCA BUSHINGS SHOCK ABSORBER BUSHING 2 51810-SDA-A01
CHASSIS KNUCKLE FRONT STABILIZER LINK 2 51320-SDA-A05
CHASSIS KNUCKLE FSB BUSHINGS 2 51306-SEP-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (10x35) x 4 4 90120-SEP-A00
HARDWARE LOCKNUT (10mm) 2 90212-SA5-003
HARDWARE FLANGE NUT (10mm) 2 90002-S10-000
HARDWARE SHOCK ABSORBER LOCK BOLT (10x44) 2 90117-SM4-003
HARDWARE BOLT, SHOCK ABSORBER FORK (12x98) 3 90121-SM4-010
HARDWARE LOCKNUT (12mm) 2 90215-SB0-003
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (12x89) 2 90118-SEP-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE BOLT (14x100) 2 90119-SEP-A00
HARDWARE PLAIN WASHER (14mm) 4 90124-SEP-A01
HARDWARE PLAIN WASHER (12mm) 4 90123-SEP-A01
HARDWARE FLANGE NUT (14mm) 4 90122-SEP-A00
HARDWARE FLANGE NUT (12mm) 4 90121-SEP-A01

KNUCKLE
UPPER ARM ASSEMBLY W/ KNUCKLE 2 51450-SEP-A02
FRONT BALL JOINT, LOWER 2 51220-SDA-A0
FLANGE BOLT (10x78) 4 90172-SDA-A00
UPPER BALL PIN NUT (10mm) 2 90321-SE0-000
SPLIT PIN (2.0x35) 2 94201-20350
CASTLE NUT (12mm) 2 90363-SEP-A00
SPLIT PIN (3.0x22) 2 90363-SEP-A01

POWER STEERING KNUCKLE
INNER TIE ROD 2 53010-SDA-A01
OUTER TIE ROD 2 53540-SEP-A02
TIE ROD DUST SEAL 2 53601-SEP-A53
BAND CLIP 2 53449-S84-A01
TIE ROD DUST SEAL 2 53434-S84-A01

Paul performs work in his own garage and is WELL worth the time invested. Just give him a call!

Please see the post above; I can e-mail you the actual file, which is far better organized, if you shoot me a PM.

You're the best man! Thanks again.

Excellent thread. I also have "invested" so much time and money in my TL-S that before I knew it, I am kinda forced to keep her going. To be honest there have been many times I've thought about getting something else but something about this car keeps me coming back:thumbsup: Ordinarily I would have traded it in a long time ago but it's just so much fun to drive. I have 133k and she feels like my brother's TL-S with 62k.

When it comes to valve adjustment. i have done them to v6 Honda engines anywhere from 90k miles to 190kk miles .most of the time the Intake valves will be loose and Exhaust will have a mix of loose and tight valves.
also miss adjusted valves might cause a check engine light to come on for couple of things.
Miss fire codes on all cylinders
engine running lean
engine running rich.
before someone spends money on new injectors or various sensors i recommend to do a valve adjustment .
most of the time it fixes the problems