LouS

Are "documentation fees" something you have to pay when you buy a car? Normally these fees are pre-printed on the purchase orders and the dealer never seems to want to negotiate these fees. Just need to know if I have to pay them or if they are negotiable.

Thanks.

Tripp11

Documentation fees are the cost the dealer charges you to complete the paperwork for your transaction. These, depending on the dealer, are negotiable. Some on this board have had these waived in their deal.

My doc fees were only $100 or thereabouts and I thought that was a fair price for the amount of paperwork I had to review and sign. Some dealers have tried to charge upwards of $600 for this which I would balk at.

moreace

Document fees are BS. Paperwork is onvolved in selling me the car, I am not paying extra because there is something to do on your end to complete the transaction. This is your business and it should be built into the price. Tell them that. Most wont take it off adn have it on the forms so they can say that everyone pays it. Just have them reduce the price of the car by the same amount as the documentation fee. This has always worked for my family. Keep us informed

Lore

I refused to pay the $45 documentation fee at Stevens Creek Acura (California). It was pre-printed and the finance manager insisted that everyone paid it, but I said that I wouldn't be one that paid it. I had to talk to the Sales Manager who finally agreed to let me take it off.

Apparently my sale was the story that circulated in that dealership all month. When I went back a few weeks ago to help a friend price a TSX, all the salesmen said they remember hearing about me because I got a really good deal (it's all relative) and wouldn't pay that doc fee.

moeronn

Doc fees are more common than not. A $45 dollar fee would not typically make or break a deal, but I would definitely not pay $100+. I believe that $45 is the standard Acura (AHFC) Doc fee, so definitely question anything above that.

TLGator

I completely agree. This is like getting the check at a restaurant and they've added $3 for the costs of writing up the check. Or something equally ridiculous.

"Doc fees" is just dealership-speak for "additional profit".

On most cars, the dealers get most people to pay the doc fees because most people fall into one of two categories: either they don't know they shouldn't have to pay it, or they don't have the nerve to say "no".

Having said that, the TL is not like most cars right now. The car is in high demand and many dealers may simply refuse your business if you try to negotiate it out of the deal. That's the problem with buying or leasing a car in high demand - your negotiating power is greatly diminished.

dafunda

Yes it is BS. Yes it is just another way for dealership to make a profit. Nevertheless, there is a 3rd category of people that pay these fees....the kind that knows that even with the DOC fees, they negotiated a kick-ass price.

The bottomline is: Negotiate with the presence of mind to ask what their "doc fees" are. The DOC fees will only surprise you if you didn't ask about it in the first place.

catsailr

I agree, the documentation fee is just another way to make more money. Just make sure when you are negotiating that your agreed amount includes the doc fee.

LouS

Thanks for the replies. I seem to remember a fairly high doc fee (~$300 or so) when I bought my wife's 2001 MDX that I also had to pay sticker price for since it was a brand new model at the time that was in very high demand. If I see anything more than $100, then I will definitely balk.

Lore

I know $45 wasn't a lot of money for the documentation fee (California law caps it at 45, so you can bet that all dealerships charge that maximum amount) but I refused to pay it out of principle. That $45 doesn't go to a third party to process my DMV paperwork -- it goes to the dealership employee -- already earning a wage -- who is selling me the car to process the paperwork.

moeronn

I agree that the Doc fees should not ever be added by dealers, but since they can, they will. Personally, I hate paying fees that seem to have no purpose, but there are worse situations. You usually have to pay Doc fees for mortgage loans and the aquisition fee for leases are even worse (500+ in most cases). From what I have heard, I thought the $45 Doc fee was actually charged by AHFC to process the loan. Anything above that fee would be pure profit to the dealer. Anything less than that would come out of the dealers profit. I could be totally wrong on this, but that is just how it seems to be.

dafunda

if you agree it's a B.S. Fee for extra dealer profit and you're not actually paying someone to do the paperwork, there is no principle involved. this DOC FEE might as well be the "my mama's got cancer and i have 10 kids to feed" fee....totally bogus but irrelevant if you negotiate properly. As much as the doc fee is b.s., it is also b.s. to whine about the fee b/c it is irrelevant once you know about it before negotiations.

dafunda

You just have to know what you're willing to pay for the car and what other deals are out there. would you rather pay $31,000 with a nicely filled out ZERO in the doc fee column to a no-hassle one-price dealer or pay $30,000 + doc fee of $300 to the salesman who negotiated with you? I hope it's a no-brainer.

Lore

I'm not really sure what you're saying, but here's a response to what I think you're saying.

Most consumers do not negotiate the documentation fee until after they sit in front of the finance manager. The sales person doesn't handle the documentation fee, so unless you're upfront with THEM and say "hey, I want you to deduct an additional $45/100/300 from the previously agreed price because I don't want to pay the documentation fee that I will need to pay in 5 minutes when I sit in front of the finance manager" then you don't have an opportunity to get it removed until later on when you're signing the paperwork.

Besides, most salespeople have no say over the removal of the fee. It's usually up to the finance manager or sales manager (as was in my case)... and in that case, you might as well negotiate/whine until it falls off.

That said, I'm not sure why you call it irrelevant if you know about it beforehand, or why you call it whining. You have to negotiate twice -- once with the salesperson for the price of your car and once with the finance manager -- so it is relevant.

Lore

The problem is, this column is generally filled in by their software so they have to lower the price of the car by another $xxx to offset the effect of the documentation fee. That said, you may have to negotiate with the finance manager to have them drop the cost of the car by another $xxx to make it the price you expect to pay.

fuque

There's no question about it: filling out the paperwork is a) a cost of doing business, just like paying the electric bill, and b) there's no way in hell it costs the dealer even $45 to punch in a few keys and have the printer spit out all the paperwork. It's just another way for the dealer to wring a few extra $$$ of profit out of the deal.

My strategy is to get a COMPLETE list of ALL fees BEFORE I agree to purchase the car. This way, you don't spend hours negotiating a deal, only to get into the finance office and suddenly have to start negotiating all over again.

I saved myself $500 of bullshit fees (including a $279 doc fee and a $250 "security registration fee") when I bought my truck. I took the printout, drew a line through those fees, and handed the sheet back to the saleswoman, saying "I need these fees removed." She swore up and down that they could NOT be removed. Guess what? They were removed. I had to get up and start walking out the door before they were removed, but they were removed.

Lore

Isn't that technically negotiating twice though? At least here in California you don't get the printout until you settle on the price and walk into the finance office.

I did something like that too (I basically told the finance lady that the $45 fee needed to be taken off before I would buy the car, and that I didn't care how many people paid it because I wasn't paying it.)

moeronn

This is definitely the best way to go about it and it is exactly what I did with the car I plan on buying tomorrow. The $45 fee was added and I accounted for it. Since I feel as if I am getting a pretty good deal - more than 1600 off MSRP in SoCal for an Anthracite/Ebony, 5AT non-Navi - I factored that into the price and it is still several hundred dollars better than any other dealer would quote me. Sure I could have argued the fee, and if the car wasn't in such high demand, I probably would have. For me, the $45 is not too high of a price to pay to get the deal I'm supposed to get, so I let it go. I even let them make $6 in profit on the wheel locks - I should probably be drawn and quartered for that one

bgronek

I screwed up myself. They gave me a good deal on the car price and slipped in a whopper of a doc fee (I'm too embarrased to even disclose it!). In return, I'm not going to give the dealership the financing deal.

Lore

Now you have us wondering... give us a clue. Is it between $500 and $1000?

LouS

Damn, I got ripped off when I bought my wife's 2001 MDX. I pulled out my paperwork last night and on top of paying the full sticker price for the vehicle, I paid 398.50 in "dealer service fees" which was supposed to be for doc fees, cleaning, inspecting, adjusting, etc. What a crock of crap. Now I know before hand that I will not pay this fee or at least have the cost of the car reduced. Acura owes me a damn good deal for the money I've already paid them...

bgronek

Below $500. The problem is that I did agree to the price in December when I ordered the car (it took this much time by my choice).