UminChu

Dude ... get a grip. You've got a terrific car, isn't that satisfying enough? German perfomance sedans are terrific cars also. In some ways better, in some ways not. Big deal. Whether we own a TL, a 3 Series, an A4, or a [insert way cool sports sedan here], we're all fortunate enough to be among a group of very lucky car owners. Wanna know a secret? *whispers* "pssst, at the end of the day, they're still just cars." If you have to get all worked up over something, please choose something more important than who bought the best car.

If you really need to rub someone else's nose in it to feel better about your car (or is it yourself?), then maybe you have some larger issues having nothing to do with cars at all. There's no need to whip 'em out and measure, just enjoy your car. Life is good.

fasTLane

I better go get some tea. This thread has turned into a pi**ing contest.

Hybrid

Even if the BMW 3-series were the logical choice in this class (and many people believe it is), there is one big problem, in my opinion. That is what the masses think about BMW and BMW owners. If you drive a BMW to work in a lot of areas of the country, people start making comments about how you must make too much money, are willing to waste money on a snobby car, are trying to prove you're better than other people, or whatever. Never mind that the same parking lot if full of SUVs that cost MORE than the BMW. Or even other cars that cost as much or more. Point that out to people and they get a confused look on their face. It all came out of the BMW=Yuppie thing a couple of decades back, I think. I have a co-worker with a low-optioned 325i that people comment on in that way, yet my TL that costs the same, basically, doesn't get that attention. There's a stigma attached to BMW, I think. It may not apply in areas where BMWs are more common, such as SoCal.

As far as the CR debate, there is a tremendous misunderstanding amoung car people and others about how they operate and test. The people testing toasters are not the same ones that test cars. The automotive division consists largely of CAR PEOPLE. They are engineers, some from the auto industry, and others that like the products. Their tests and rankings are based on lots of factors, not just "average Joe" attributes. Included among these are:

RELIABILITY - the magazines like C&D totally ignore this aspect, and it's one of the most inportant considerations!
Acceleration: 0 to 60 and 45 to 60 and 1/4 mile
Transmission behavior/quality
Routine Handling
Emergency Handling
Braking
Ride
Noise
Driving Position
Front and Rear seat comfort
Access
Controls and Displays
Interior fit and finish
Trunk/Storage
Beyond the categories that are objectively ranked, they report mpg, safety results (crash tests, air bags, ABS, traction control, etc., bumper protection). It isn't clear how much weight various things get in their ratings.

They really do pay a LOT of attention to handling, acceleration, and general driveability. Why else would a BMW 3-series be their top rated car in its class (now the TL) and the BMW 5 series (previous generation) be their best tested car of all time? If they were reporting on what the "average Joe" wanted, wouldn't a car like a Taurus win, because that's obviously what Average Joe buys and wants? (Average Joe doesn't have a clue in what ways a BMW is better than his Taurus, and frequently things it's actually worse in all ways he cares about).

rets

It's the good post. Thank you.

vtechbrain

From Queen!!!!!! We are the champions, my friends..... And another one bites the dust Hey!!! B(uy) M(ore) W(hyskey) to drown your sorrows!!!!! I'M REALLY ENJOYING THIS! BRING IT ON!

danno

I said it before, and I`ll say it again, you can`t compare a bottom of the barrel equipped BMW 3 Series with a Mid size fully equipped TL, that has more HP,more options, and a 7000.00 difference in price. The 3 is smaller.Compare it with the 5 series,(still less HP in the 525).

need4spd

Danno, the problem is that even Acura compares the TL to the 330i, at the ride and drives for the dealers in sept/oct, they had the 330i, ES300, and G35 sedan there for the dealers to drive back to back with the TL.

In some of the Honda News information, they used the 5 series, so they can't even make up their minds.

But you are right, the 5 is similarly sized to the TL, and Acura claimed it was modeled after the 530 sport in past articles.

RJC RSX

btw, C/D just arrived today. i was hoping to read some letters to the editors regarding the TL review, but nothing.

rets

5 series has more than 10 grand difference in price, which should not be the competitor either by your theory. If we need to find the very similar size, price, power, and options' cars to compare with 04TL, sorry, I cannot remember anyone, EX330, G35, A4, A6, Maxima, they're not parallel.

IMO, most of ppl and magazines compare TL with many cars you disagree.

vtechbrain

Just got my Feb CR!!! The article's title is "A VIEW FROM THE TOP" And you know what??? I have a blue pearl with camel interior like the one in the article (the one in the article is missing my stick and navi though)!!!!!! Jesus! I'm so tickled pink I laugh every time I look at the damn car. Hahhhhh eat that one BMW!!!! Just wait for the RL!!!! I think B(unch) M(illions W(wasted) will be looking for a buyer soon!!!

BLEXV6

They do not order their cars with the Navi as CR believes that this is an overpriced and unnecessary option, that is buy a map for a lot cheaper.

vtechbrain

Good point I have never seen them test navi cars. They have tested add on nav systems with prices up to over 1K, though. I think it must be difficult to arrange all the vehicles to have navi in order to be able to test them side by side, for example, I dont know if SAAB and Volvo Offer navi.

Hybrid

Where is this information from? I can't find it in any of my back issues of CR. The last mention of navigation systems that I can find was in the June 2003 issue where they tested portable units priced between $150 and $1000. (The $1000 Garmin Streetpilot III was the highest rated). Quotes from the article: "For $1000 you can buy a portable navigation unit with most of the features of a $2000 in-dash system." "In features and functionality, the best now rival some expensive built-in systems, which are available in many high-priced vehicles." Then they list some of the disadvantages of portables, such as small screens, limited databases, interfering with the view of the road. "If the benefits of a navigation system appeal to you, built-in systems...provide the most convenience and features." "If you're not buying a car that offers a navigation system or if you want the advantages of a portable unit, we think you will probably find the best of these portables perfectly adequate for your needs, and the savings potential is significant."

It doesn't look to me like they are saying that they are an unneccessary and overpriced option. Clearly, nobody, including CR, would say navigation systems are necessary, of course. They never said anything close to "buy a map" that I could find.

From some of the text in the article, they are clearly familiar with systems in various cars, because they mention touch screens in Honda/Acura products, and voice control. I think the reasons they haven't tested navigation-equipped cars (if that's true - I didn't verify this) could be:

-CR buys their cars after negotiating just like you and I do. With the TL, maybe the navi option just wasn't on the lot. (Lots of people on this forum are finding that to be the case). Maybe they wanted to save themselves $2000 (or more, after negotiations). It's unlikely that the TL would have rated any better or worse with the navi, so why buy it, unless they just want to experience and report on it? They also don't appear to have tested all that many vehicles were navi is an option, and it's generally a rare option, and just the "raw" chances of it showing up in a specific vehicle where it is an option probably don't exceed 20% for most models. I also think they tend to want the four or so vehicles they test at the same time (same magazine issue) to be comparable in equipment. Putting navi in one where it isn't even available in others would make the price comparison unfair.

fasTLane

Sour grapes?

technogeek

I believe the CR report is pretty accurate. The Feb CR issue was in my mailbox 2 days after I took delivery of my '04 TL.

I test drove the TL, ES330, and the BMW 330i. I didn't even drive the G35 because I personally thought it was ugly. Likewise for the IS300, the interior just wasn't impressive at all.

After driving the ES330 I immediately came to the same conclusion as CR, a luxury car. I thought the handling was terrible. A great car for those that who want a ride devoid of any feeling of the road, isolated from the world. I was definitely look for something sportier with better handling.

I *LOVED* the BMW 330i. Until I drove the TL I thought for sure I was going to buy it. I still believe it handles better than the TL.

I did have a problem with the price of the BMW. It basically came down to comparing a stripped 330i or reasonably equipped 325i to the fully loaded TL. While CR gave a $7K difference, I believe the price of the more fully loaded (the way I really would want it) to be closer to $10K. Even then the BMW didn't have some of the features the TL has standard (DVD-A, BT).

I just couldn't justify the additional cost of the BMW. Add expected reliability to the mix, and the fact that the BMW dealership had arrogant jerks as salespeople. According to CR's pricing information The Acura also has roughly $1K of dealer holdback as well that BMW didn't have. That translates to roughly $1K less on the car.

So while the 330i and the TL have their differences, I do believe they are fair comparisons. My personal decision narrowed down between just these two vehicles.

As for reliability, I believe CR in this area, and it is important to me. I tend to keep cars a long time.

The car I traded in on the TL was a 1991 Honda Prelude Si with over 130K miles on it. The car still drove practically like new. I had it for the last 10 years and my sister for the first 3 (I bought out her lease). For 13 years the car had almost no failures at all other than the air conditioning and routine maintenance. The AC however was by far the worst of any car ever and was ultimately why I got rid of the car, it died for the last time.

Conversely, most European cars tend to be far more troublesome. My brother and his wife who previously drove Mercedes or Volvo have switched to Toyota and Lexus primarily for reliability.

The CR report on the HID low beams I somewhat agree with. While I love HID lights, the TL does not have auto leveling (BMW does on the optional HID). In the few days I've had the TL I've noticed the sharp edge, and expect that on-coming drivers get quite a bit of glare. I still like them better than Halogen, so I don't completely agree with CR. Auto leveling would be an improvement.

Some questions to the group:
1. Does the radio have RDS for FM? I don't see any data displayed. The BMW 330i radio does have this feature. Even loser GM cars I've rented have had it. It seems a shame that the TL doesn't. The only song title info I've seen is on XM.

2. The sales guy was telling me about an Acura MP3 player that will connect directly to the radio and show info on the Nav screen. I don't see this anywhere on the Acura web site. Does anyone know anything about this? All he could tell me was that it was about $500, no other info availble.

3. I've heard about all kinds of mods to the NAVI and external inputs to the stereo. Any info availble? The local shop that supposedly did some of these mods is now out of business.

I especially want info on how to feed external audio in to the radio so I can connect an external MP3 player. I consider this Acura's biggest mistake. I've seen after market car stereos for as little as $100 with MP3 playback, yet not a single OEM stereo supports it. What gives? Are the auto makers totally clueless? For a car that put so much attention on the audio system not to support MP3 (Never mind MP3 Pro, WMA, AAC and others) seems idiotic. The car is the place I want MP3 the most. I can switch CDs easily in my living room, in the car I want each CD to hold ~150 tunes. Even better would be to play MP3 from a DVD. 4.7 GB holds a lot of MP3 files!

All in all, I'm very pleased with my new Anthracite/Ebony 6MT NAVI with dealer installed Wing spoiler and body side molding.
I agree with pretty much everything in the CR review, including rating the TL #1. While the 330i does drive better, the significantly higher cost and lower reliability swung me to the TL. It definitely drives very nice.

BTW - the October 2003 issue of Car and Driver rated the 0-60 speed of the 04 TL 6MT as 6.0 sec, significantly faster than the CR report. The CR report was with the 5AT.
That was one of many factors swinging me to the TL. That and the BMW salesman telling me the BMW horsepower was more because it was measure at the wheels. It's still 270 vs 225.

I was able to induce torque steer in my test drive, but not enough to make me not buy the car. I haven't pushed my own that hard yet with less the 100 miles on the engine. I never had any noticeable torque steer on my Prelude, although it had MUCH less power.

partagas

The Current C&D runs it at 5.7/14.4. I have both cars, a 330i and a TL. Your assessment is correct. Yes he 330i handles better. It is more responsive on all acconts, not all good. The TL is the next best handler and is more comfortable, quiter, way up on the luxury scale.

There have been various posts on NAV and stereo stuff. You'll just have to keep reading. Somewhere, I have the notes on the DVD/V player. Someone will post it again. None of the commercial DVD writers will write DVD-A, yet. The latest Roxio download--not yet. It is apparently a copyright issue.

The RDS on the BMW? Never use it. Few stations use it. The MP3, a friend showed me how he did it. MP3 just doesn't cut it. In a few months, we'll be able to write DVD-A and 7CDs per DVD is a lot of song.

Congrats on new car. I have 900 mi on mine, Anth/NAAV/6MT with Goodyear F1s. The tires were a revelation, 100% improvement in cornering confidence, no more hunting for a line. The car is fun to drive, heavy on comfort, quiet and luxury. Better at everything than my GS430 was.

technogeek

Partagas, Where the Goodyear tires upgrades from the Turanzas? It sounds like they were worth the upgrade.

As for burning DVD-A discs, I sure hope so. If for no other reason than being able to make legitimite back ups. I live in S. Florida where it gets HOT in the summer. The thought of having 6 original master DVD-A discs at >$20/disc baking in the Florida sun is distressing. I would feel a lot better with copies at a buck or so for a DVD-R blank. I wouldn't think about puting master CDs in the car, why DVD As?

While the sound quality of even high bit rate MP3 is still not that of DVD-A, it is very acceptable, certainly better than FM or probably even XM. It is an option I would really like to have. You are correct that if SW becomes available to burn roughly 7 CDs in native PCM on a DVD it will definitely have even better quality. 256 or 320 kbps MP3 sounds pretty decent though, certainly for relatively casual listening.

Stewie

Nice write-up on 330i vs. TL.

I especially agree with your notation that the price difference is more than the $7k that CR noted. My friend bought a 330i three years ago and it had a sticker of around $42k and that didn't include HID or any kind of Navi system. And of course the BMW dealer wasn't willing to deal very much on that price, so yes the difference is more like $10k.

But its worth noting that over three years and 45k miles his 330 has been completely trouble-free which is a noticable improvement over his previous A4. Yeah, its only 45k miles but at least it hasn't been a nightmare to own from a reliablity standpoint.

I can't believe anyone seriously cross-shops the ES300/330 with either of these cars. My dad has an ES300 and my uncle just bought an ES330 (for about $40k) and they are both 60+ years old. The ES is a rock solid car for those that want a better Buick but I can't really see Lexus stealing customers from the 330 or the new TL.

As for reviews I think you need to read the enthusiast magazines as well as CR to get the full picture of what a car is like. In my younger days I laughed at people that bought cars based on CR recommendations but now that I'm older and [relatively] wiser I understand that reliability is important. Now my life is way too complicated and busy to be taking my car into the shop every other month even if the cost of the repair is covered by warranty. Its the inconvenience as much as the cost that bothers me.

Are you saying that the Navi system has available inputs in the back that can be used for other things like say, an iPod?

vtechbrain

OK, OK, OK, OK I'm going to stop gloating since it injures the fragile egos of BMW owners............
But one last time,
!!!!WE'RE NUMBER ONE, WE'RE NUMBER ONE, WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!!! YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

silveraccord

Ok, my two cents.

We the thinking men and women of the performance automobile enthusiasts have been vindicated by Consumer reports.

No more can mothers in law question our judgement because consumer reports shares our affection. And lord knows they're the gold standard.

It also indicates that though we could spend more, we won't spend more for a car that spends more time in the shop than on the road. We will not let our automotive lust for a propeller badge and those brief instants of vehicular performance overwhelm our more intelligent side, who says SEVEN GRAND FOR WHAT AMOUNTS TO FIVE MINUTES OF PLEASURE IN EXCHANGE FOR 5 YEARS OF FINANCING HELL!

Financing seven grand over five years, if you finance, ends up being a hell of a set of rims, Aspec kit, lowering springs, and pretty much all the friggin bolt ons you could ever ask for. If you pay cash it does the same thing.

Anyway, as you can tell, I'm thrilled with the CR report. Go common sense!

partagas

Techno: the newest Roxio 6, with the download update will copy DVD-A; it just won't creat one from another format, so you can backup a DVD-A.

Techno and Stewie. My 330i was 41,6, has everything but NAV and I bought it for 40,1. It has been trouble free except for one window controller.

In another post Inoted that the TL will not transition with the 330i, nor blast out of a turn. It requires a roll-on throttle control. This diminishes the fun coefficient.

But, it handles circles around my understeering/lunging ex-GS430 or my cousin's G35 which has an absolutely scary uncontrollable tail. So, the TL wuld be an absolute 9.5 compared to the Lexus (including quality of ride and noise) and the Infiniti. Compared to the BMW, it loses bya poin on handling and fun but it wins big on luxury, noise, trip comfort. BTW the only noticeable dimensional differences are shoulder width and rear seat leg room.

partagas

Techno, sorry that I missed the tire point. The F1s are not desireable; they are a necessity. They change the 8.5/10ths handling from a 6 to an 8. All of the hunting and rebouding from your line goes away and the point of understeer is pushed up too far to reach on a public two way mountain road. Much more confidence inspiring.

Stewie

Another difference...

I'm not sure about the radio in your 330i, but the one in my buddy's car absoluetly sucks in terms of sound quality.

The Bose system in my 98 CL blows his away. He doesn't really care because he's not a music guy but I sure notice it.

I guess its not a dealbreaker but its kind of disappointing in a $42k BWM.

partagas

Mine has the HK premium? stereo. Its clarity is fine and on voice, light rock, light pops, which I listen to, it is good, very natural sound balance. But if you like loud boom boom and screaming people, it won't do. It just won't go loud. But, it sure will attack a corner flat out and magically drift on all four wheels evenly with easy throttle manipulation. This is what the G35 won't do.

You can do a weird kinda crab-drift with the TL by braking into the turn and then left foot braking while you apply throttle right before the apex to lift your nose and then carefully accelerating out of the turn at the edge of the understeer limit, you can sorta drift, sorta pull, build up a lot of cornering speed. Then you gotta brake early for the next turn. It's more work than the 330i but damn near as fast and faster than its similar competitors stock.

BLEXV6

In my personal opinion, the Navi is a nice option that I will likely get. You will find in the year end auto issue CR lists which options they recommend and those they sat are nice to have. It appears I misread and I appologize.