Bent Valves Update...Acura Client care is useless!
10-20-2006, 01:08 PM
#41
I love cars!
Originally Posted by stever627
First thing I want to say is that I completely agree that if something is your fault, that someone else should not have to pay for it and that you should not be mad when they don't. It would be like me taking my laptop and slamming the lid shut and expecting the manufacturer to replace the shattered LCD under warranty because they didn't have adequate protection for the screen. However, if there is a direct link between a defect with product that causes another part of the product to fail, then by all means the manufacturer should pay for it.
So now we have a couple of arguments here. Yes, I concur with you that the OP bending his valves was a result of his actions. I also agree that it's false logic to say "if the tranny was "fixed" this never would've happened", however, I don't agree that the problem tranny did not increase the likelihood of the misshift occuring. In this particular situation, if the driver wasn't forced to make a quick second attempt to get the car in gear to get out of harm's way, he wouldn't have missed his shift.
We have the following pieces:
A - problem tranny - car pops out of gear
B - misshift
C - proper shift
D - bent valves
E - no problems
In your argument, you assert that A is not equal to D, however B equals D. Yes, you are correct in that A does not directly cause D. The OP's argument is that A resulted in B which then resulted in D. It is a chain of events and he is completely justified in having some sort of anger towards Acura. He brought the car to them for A on more than one occasion and they could not fix the problem correctly.
This is not to say that if the dealer fixed A, then B wouldn't have happened at another time under spirited driving, quick shifting, etc, but in this particular case, had A not existed, B would not have happened, driver would execute C and therefore driver would have E.
I don't exactly remember my logic class from college, but its something along the lines of slippery slope (I think).
IMO the OP certainly has a valid cause/effect argument.
So now we have a couple of arguments here. Yes, I concur with you that the OP bending his valves was a result of his actions. I also agree that it's false logic to say "if the tranny was "fixed" this never would've happened", however, I don't agree that the problem tranny did not increase the likelihood of the misshift occuring. In this particular situation, if the driver wasn't forced to make a quick second attempt to get the car in gear to get out of harm's way, he wouldn't have missed his shift.
We have the following pieces:
A - problem tranny - car pops out of gear
B - misshift
C - proper shift
D - bent valves
E - no problems
In your argument, you assert that A is not equal to D, however B equals D. Yes, you are correct in that A does not directly cause D. The OP's argument is that A resulted in B which then resulted in D. It is a chain of events and he is completely justified in having some sort of anger towards Acura. He brought the car to them for A on more than one occasion and they could not fix the problem correctly.
This is not to say that if the dealer fixed A, then B wouldn't have happened at another time under spirited driving, quick shifting, etc, but in this particular case, had A not existed, B would not have happened, driver would execute C and therefore driver would have E.
I don't exactly remember my logic class from college, but its something along the lines of slippery slope (I think).
IMO the OP certainly has a valid cause/effect argument.
10-20-2006, 01:15 PM
#42
I love cars!
Originally Posted by CobraGuy
I'm gonna tell you what...you take this to arbitration and you will win. The tranny has a known history of problems on your car. It popped out of 4th gear...that is NOT normal. In your haste to get it back in gear on a busy freeway, you accidently shoved it in 2nd. That is not Honda's fault...but it is a direct cause of the tranny problem. Honda should step up to the plate and fix this. If not, demand arbitration.
10-20-2006, 02:02 PM
#44
One on the right for me
Originally Posted by fast-tl
Neither his haste nor nor misshift is Acura's fault. He had several other ratios to choose from and he chose wrong. you guys are really weak at cause and effect...
Exactly.
10-20-2006, 04:00 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by fast-tl
Neither his haste nor nor misshift is Acura's fault. He had several other ratios to choose from and he chose wrong. .
How is it acura's fault that he misshifted?
10-20-2006, 04:02 PM
#46
Registered Member
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
In terms of the poping out of gear, that is not a Acura gearbox issue but a driver operation. The extreme vast majority of the time when a manual transmission with a synchronizer pops out of gear it was because the gear/ synchornizer was not fully engaged. In simple terms you never pushed or pulled on the gear selector enough. If you have enough load on the gears and are forcing the lever you can bend the shift forks. So this is not a gearbox issue. Using the GM sychromise fluid will make the syncro's engage easier but it is still possibly with any manual gearbox to have it pop out of gear. I've had it happen to me in Toyota's, BMW's, Honda's, and Acura's. My fault shifting lazy and not paying attention, not the gearbox's fault.
I know of one person who has had his 6MT 3G TL gearbox rebuilt, but the reason the dealership guesses is for that the car was abused while it was loaner. Several synchros's and shift forks were replaced, the dealership was high apologetic. Still their fault as they should have inspected the car more thoroughly.
I know of one person who has had his 6MT 3G TL gearbox rebuilt, but the reason the dealership guesses is for that the car was abused while it was loaner. Several synchros's and shift forks were replaced, the dealership was high apologetic. Still their fault as they should have inspected the car more thoroughly.
10-20-2006, 04:10 PM
#47
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Case in point: a friend of mine with an Evo MR did the exact same thing once. He was playing around and revving the life out of his Evo. unfortunately, during a "spirited" drive, he mis-shifted from a high gear at more than 70 mph to 2nd gear.
Thankfully though (and this is where the similarity between his case and yours ends really) he didnt blow the engine, despite his claims that he had seen the tach rev past 9K on the Evo and triggered all sorts of noises and lights.
You see, the way the clutch/pressure plate is designed in the Evo (and Im suprised why Acura hasnt adopted this on their 6MT) makes it snap off each other completely to save the engine from revving with the actual road speed of the tires and transmission. a ring gear of some sort that connects the crankshaft to the xfer case/transmission broke its physical connection, thereby saving the engine from overrevving damage. below are pics that I took with the mechanic at MMC :
picture of gear break-off :
the force sheared off part of the casing of the lower engine assembly:
pic of ring that connects with the clutch:
Did they check his rod bearings and his TC case the input shaft looks chewed to the TC in the pics.
Thankfully though (and this is where the similarity between his case and yours ends really) he didnt blow the engine, despite his claims that he had seen the tach rev past 9K on the Evo and triggered all sorts of noises and lights.
You see, the way the clutch/pressure plate is designed in the Evo (and Im suprised why Acura hasnt adopted this on their 6MT) makes it snap off each other completely to save the engine from revving with the actual road speed of the tires and transmission. a ring gear of some sort that connects the crankshaft to the xfer case/transmission broke its physical connection, thereby saving the engine from overrevving damage. below are pics that I took with the mechanic at MMC :
picture of gear break-off :
the force sheared off part of the casing of the lower engine assembly:
pic of ring that connects with the clutch:
Did they check his rod bearings and his TC case the input shaft looks chewed to the TC in the pics.
10-20-2006, 04:12 PM
#48
Registered Member
Originally Posted by bluenoser
Again, if there was a grinding noise you weren't 4th gear. The grinding comes from the engagement dogs spinning at a different speed than the engagement slots in the gear you're trying to mesh with. This also coincides with a harsh kick back in the shift lever. If you had engaged 4th gear it popped out you don't get grinding, because the gears were already spinning the same speed. What you get sounds like a bang, if the gear is under load.
My best guess is you released the clutch as the dogs were engaging, meaning you hadn't completed the shift into 4th. The grindinding and resulting kick back put it in neutral, the rest is history.
My best guess is you released the clutch as the dogs were engaging, meaning you hadn't completed the shift into 4th. The grindinding and resulting kick back put it in neutral, the rest is history.
bluenoser has hit the "nose" on the head in this and his previous post (#39). He is spot on correct with his description.
I know that most people believe that when you are driving a vehicle with a manual transmission, you are shifting through the gears. But this is just not how it goes. I would wager that all manual transmissions sold for the general public use are constant mesh. This means that all of the drive and driven gears are engaged all of the time. When you shift gears, you are NOT shifting gears. You are moving collars which live inside the gears (I know.. lousy verbage). These collars contain teeth (dog teeth) which are parallel to their gears' shafts. The dog teeth engage (move into) slots, or female receptacles, in the hibs of other gears.
Here, check out this link and you'll see what we're trying to say.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm
Notice the descriptions and parts about shifting.
10-20-2006, 04:18 PM
#49
Registered Member
I should add that generally a more common reason for a manual transmission to "pop" out of gear is due to shifter linkage problems. This is, of course, assuming the driver did his part correctly.
This means the shift didn't cause the shifting forks to fully move (insert) the dog teeth into their respective hub(s). Under load conditions (both positive and negative), and the vibrations traveling through the drivetrain, the dog teeth can 'work" themselves back out of their slots. Thus the bang sound and the sudden free-revving engine.
This means the shift didn't cause the shifting forks to fully move (insert) the dog teeth into their respective hub(s). Under load conditions (both positive and negative), and the vibrations traveling through the drivetrain, the dog teeth can 'work" themselves back out of their slots. Thus the bang sound and the sudden free-revving engine.
10-20-2006, 04:39 PM
#50
Drifting
Originally Posted by DMMTL A-SPEC
Did they check his rod bearings and his TC case the input shaft looks chewed to the TC in the pics.
10-20-2006, 08:07 PM
#51
AZ Community Team
Good idea putting in that synchro link to the howstuffworks website (they have great articles and illustrations on alot of technical things).
Yes, all forward gears in cars with manual transmissions have synchro's but almost all do not have synchro's for reverse gear.
About the only modern manual transmission car I can think of that do not have synchro's are some Lamborghini's that used dog rings like motorcycle and racing gearboxes for gear engagement. Like synchro's the gears are always meshed and a locking pins slides into the ring to select the gear.
Yes, all forward gears in cars with manual transmissions have synchro's but almost all do not have synchro's for reverse gear.
About the only modern manual transmission car I can think of that do not have synchro's are some Lamborghini's that used dog rings like motorcycle and racing gearboxes for gear engagement. Like synchro's the gears are always meshed and a locking pins slides into the ring to select the gear.
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Gentlemen;
bluenoser has hit the "nose" on the head in this and his previous post (#39). He is spot on correct with his description.
I know that most people believe that when you are driving a vehicle with a manual transmission, you are shifting through the gears. But this is just not how it goes. I would wager that all manual transmissions sold for the general public use are constant mesh. This means that all of the drive and driven gears are engaged all of the time. When you shift gears, you are NOT shifting gears. You are moving collars which live inside the gears (I know.. lousy verbage). These collars contain teeth (dog teeth) which are parallel to their gears' shafts. The dog teeth engage (move into) slots, or female receptacles, in the hibs of other gears.
Here, check out this link and you'll see what we're trying to say.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm
Notice the descriptions and parts about shifting.
bluenoser has hit the "nose" on the head in this and his previous post (#39). He is spot on correct with his description.
I know that most people believe that when you are driving a vehicle with a manual transmission, you are shifting through the gears. But this is just not how it goes. I would wager that all manual transmissions sold for the general public use are constant mesh. This means that all of the drive and driven gears are engaged all of the time. When you shift gears, you are NOT shifting gears. You are moving collars which live inside the gears (I know.. lousy verbage). These collars contain teeth (dog teeth) which are parallel to their gears' shafts. The dog teeth engage (move into) slots, or female receptacles, in the hibs of other gears.
Here, check out this link and you'll see what we're trying to say.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm
Notice the descriptions and parts about shifting.
10-20-2006, 08:19 PM
#52
AZ Community Team
In the 4th picture from the top, it looks like some of the broken parts are from the release bearing as you can clearly see the inner tapered roller bearing on the throwout arm of the bell housing. Most of those broken pieces are thin sheet steel stampings and I guess/suspect do not carry any torque load. None the less ALOT of energy was disappated when that shift occured.
Originally Posted by DMMTL A-SPEC
Case in point: a friend of mine with an Evo MR did the exact same thing once. He was playing around and revving the life out of his Evo. unfortunately, during a "spirited" drive, he mis-shifted from a high gear at more than 70 mph to 2nd gear.
Thankfully though (and this is where the similarity between his case and yours ends really) he didnt blow the engine, despite his claims that he had seen the tach rev past 9K on the Evo and triggered all sorts of noises and lights.
You see, the way the clutch/pressure plate is designed in the Evo (and Im suprised why Acura hasnt adopted this on their 6MT) makes it snap off each other completely to save the engine from revving with the actual road speed of the tires and transmission. a ring gear of some sort that connects the crankshaft to the xfer case/transmission broke its physical connection, thereby saving the engine from overrevving damage. below are pics that I took with the mechanic at MMC :
picture of gear break-off :
the force sheared off part of the casing of the lower engine assembly:
pic of ring that connects with the clutch:
Did they check his rod bearings and his TC case the input shaft looks chewed to the TC in the pics.
Thankfully though (and this is where the similarity between his case and yours ends really) he didnt blow the engine, despite his claims that he had seen the tach rev past 9K on the Evo and triggered all sorts of noises and lights.
You see, the way the clutch/pressure plate is designed in the Evo (and Im suprised why Acura hasnt adopted this on their 6MT) makes it snap off each other completely to save the engine from revving with the actual road speed of the tires and transmission. a ring gear of some sort that connects the crankshaft to the xfer case/transmission broke its physical connection, thereby saving the engine from overrevving damage. below are pics that I took with the mechanic at MMC :
picture of gear break-off :
the force sheared off part of the casing of the lower engine assembly:
pic of ring that connects with the clutch:
Did they check his rod bearings and his TC case the input shaft looks chewed to the TC in the pics.
10-20-2006, 08:39 PM
#53
Registered Member
Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Good idea putting in that synchro link to the howstuffworks website (they have great articles and illustrations on alot of technical things).
Yes, all forward gears in cars with manual transmissions have synchro's but almost all do not have synchro's for reverse gear.
About the only modern manual transmission car I can think of that do not have synchro's are some Lamborghini's that used dog rings like motorcycle and racing gearboxes for gear engagement. Like synchro's the gears are always meshed and a locking pins slides into the ring to select the gear.
Yes, all forward gears in cars with manual transmissions have synchro's but almost all do not have synchro's for reverse gear.
About the only modern manual transmission car I can think of that do not have synchro's are some Lamborghini's that used dog rings like motorcycle and racing gearboxes for gear engagement. Like synchro's the gears are always meshed and a locking pins slides into the ring to select the gear.
10-20-2006, 10:46 PM
#54
www.seattlewhips.com
Originally Posted by pmptx
If you are revving high a 3>5 is ok also.
Manuals are very forgiving qnd give you 3G folks a lot of options we of the 2G 5AT don't have
Manuals are very forgiving qnd give you 3G folks a lot of options we of the 2G 5AT don't have
if you do alot of MT research on AZ, you will find alot of valuable information. having said that, i will admit that i am a newer MT driver... i love my 6MT, and try to pick up new (new to me) driving techniques to make me a better more knowledgeable stick driver.
So... not trying to piss people off, BUT, i am increasing annoyed by people who say they've been driving MT all their lives as if thats supposed to count for much. Im not trying to discount your experience driving MT's. Lord knows that if you've driven 3-4 MT cars in the past, you must know how to drive it somewhat, but for me, a good 80% of the people i know who are 'experienced' have developed really bad habits along the way and will probably never break those habits. Here are just a few
1. starting in 2nd gear (some cars can handle it, but my friend who does this has a 6MT TL too... NOT GOOD FOR TL's)
2. keeping foot on clutch at stop lights
3. Not rev matching when downshifting
4. skip shifting
5. Not putting into higher gear before going into 1st when starting out in N (a new technique i just learned from southernboy)
6. Rocking the car back and forth on hills.
Originally Posted by stever627
the popping is the known issue. Many people have hard parts of the trans replaced in an attempt to fix it and Acura's released a new MT fluid. They may not have formally admitted a known issue, but in the case of the new fluid - "if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".
10-21-2006, 08:04 AM
#55
I love cars!
Originally Posted by jennarocks
WRONG. Don't skip shift. Not good for the synchros. If you do want to skip shift from 3rd to 5th you need to wait for the RPMs to come down to a normal range for 5th gear.
Please read more carefully next time before blurting out that someone is WRONG.
Jenna did NOT rock in this case.
10-21-2006, 08:14 AM
#56
Registered Member
Originally Posted by jennarocks
WRONG. Don't skip shift. Not good for the synchros. If you do want to skip shift from 3rd to 5th you need to wait for the RPMs to come down to a normal range for 5th gear.
if you do alot of MT research on AZ, you will find alot of valuable information. having said that, i will admit that i am a newer MT driver... i love my 6MT, and try to pick up new (new to me) driving techniques to make me a better more knowledgeable stick driver.
So... not trying to piss people off, BUT, i am increasing annoyed by people who say they've been driving MT all their lives as if thats supposed to count for much. Im not trying to discount your experience driving MT's. Lord knows that if you've driven 3-4 MT cars in the past, you must know how to drive it somewhat, but for me, a good 80% of the people i know who are 'experienced' have developed really bad habits along the way and will probably never break those habits. Here are just a few
1. starting in 2nd gear (some cars can handle it, but my friend who does this has a 6MT TL too... NOT GOOD FOR TL's)
2. keeping foot on clutch at stop lights
3. Not rev matching when downshifting
4. skip shifting
5. Not putting into higher gear before going into 1st when starting out in N (a new technique i just learned from southernboy)
6. Rocking the car back and forth on hills.
The known issue for 6MT is difficulty in engaging 3rd gear. this is the main problem alot of people have that is usually remedied by changing to a synthetic MT fluid. For me, and i think i can speak for the majority of people who have/had this problem, gears have never just popped out. any 'popping out' of 3rd gear was only because of difficulty getting it into 3rd. Example, i would shift to 3rd and feel resistence, so i try to jam it in gear... feels like its engaging, but i feel the dog teeth grind and it pops back out. I guess i feel the need to illustrate clearly the difference between a gear that is engaged and pops out VS. a gear that is not engaged properly and pops out.
if you do alot of MT research on AZ, you will find alot of valuable information. having said that, i will admit that i am a newer MT driver... i love my 6MT, and try to pick up new (new to me) driving techniques to make me a better more knowledgeable stick driver.
So... not trying to piss people off, BUT, i am increasing annoyed by people who say they've been driving MT all their lives as if thats supposed to count for much. Im not trying to discount your experience driving MT's. Lord knows that if you've driven 3-4 MT cars in the past, you must know how to drive it somewhat, but for me, a good 80% of the people i know who are 'experienced' have developed really bad habits along the way and will probably never break those habits. Here are just a few
1. starting in 2nd gear (some cars can handle it, but my friend who does this has a 6MT TL too... NOT GOOD FOR TL's)
2. keeping foot on clutch at stop lights
3. Not rev matching when downshifting
4. skip shifting
5. Not putting into higher gear before going into 1st when starting out in N (a new technique i just learned from southernboy)
6. Rocking the car back and forth on hills.
The known issue for 6MT is difficulty in engaging 3rd gear. this is the main problem alot of people have that is usually remedied by changing to a synthetic MT fluid. For me, and i think i can speak for the majority of people who have/had this problem, gears have never just popped out. any 'popping out' of 3rd gear was only because of difficulty getting it into 3rd. Example, i would shift to 3rd and feel resistence, so i try to jam it in gear... feels like its engaging, but i feel the dog teeth grind and it pops back out. I guess i feel the need to illustrate clearly the difference between a gear that is engaged and pops out VS. a gear that is not engaged properly and pops out.
I love it when people continue to refine their techniques. In your first paragraph with your reason for not skip-shifting on upshifts, you are spot on correct. In your second paragraph where you state that you try to pickup new techniques to help make you a better manual user, my hat's off to you on this one. I still continue trying to improve my techniques because I know both me and my car will benefit.
In your third paragraph where you talk about people who believe that just because they have been driving manual transmissions for XX years, they know all there is to know about them. WRONG! My father-in-law (who has passed on) drove manuals for as many years (or more) as I have to this point in my life and he was one of the worse manual drivers I've ever encountered.. just the way he learned, I suppose.
You six numbered bad habit items could be poster clues as to what NOT to do. I would add to this; 7. resting the left foot on the clutch pedal while driving; 8. using more RPMs than necessary to launch the car from a stop. Item #8 has two negatives attached to it which go hand-in-hand. The first is the fact that over-revving when starting off puts unecessary and additional wear on the clutch assembly. The second is the fact that if a driver does this, he will have to slip the clutch longer until the speed of the car catches up the the engine RPMs.
Oh, for you #3 item, don't forget to engage the clutch some as you pass through the neutral gate (double clutching) in order to spin up the drive gears just before completing the shift. This significantly reduces the stress and wear on the synchronizers and makes the shift almost effortless smooth.
But good for you. Nice post and you are obviously on the right path as a manual tranny user.
10-21-2006, 08:17 AM
#57
AZ Community Team
You're correct, I should have stated "some" cars do not have synchro's for reverse. Guess I sorta missed not hearing gears clashing going into reverse on the TL compared to my wife's 86 Integra (which had no reverse synchro).
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Our TL manual reverse gear is synchronized. I've had a few Fords with reverse synchros, too. If a transmission does not have a synchronized reverse. the way you keep the thing from grinding is to first put it in a forward gear and then go into reverse. No grind.
10-21-2006, 03:14 PM
#58
www.seattlewhips.com
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
GOOD FOR YOU!!
I love it when people continue to refine their techniques. In your first paragraph with your reason for not skip-shifting on upshifts, you are spot on correct. In your second paragraph where you state that you try to pickup new techniques to help make you a better manual user, my hat's off to you on this one. I still continue trying to improve my techniques because I know both me and my car will benefit.
In your third paragraph where you talk about people who believe that just because they have been driving manual transmissions for XX years, they know all there is to know about them. WRONG! My father-in-law (who has passed on) drove manuals for as many years (or more) as I have to this point in my life and he was one of the worse manual drivers I've ever encountered.. just the way he learned, I suppose.
You six numbered bad habit items could be poster clues as to what NOT to do. I would add to this; 7. resting the left foot on the clutch pedal while driving; 8. using more RPMs than necessary to launch the car from a stop. Item #8 has two negatives attached to it which go hand-in-hand. The first is the fact that over-revving when starting off puts unecessary and additional wear on the clutch assembly. The second is the fact that if a driver does this, he will have to slip the clutch longer until the speed of the car catches up the the engine RPMs.
Oh, for you #3 item, don't forget to engage the clutch some as you pass through the neutral gate (double clutching) in order to spin up the drive gears just before completing the shift. This significantly reduces the stress and wear on the synchronizers and makes the shift almost effortless smooth.
But good for you. Nice post and you are obviously on the right path as a manual tranny user.
I love it when people continue to refine their techniques. In your first paragraph with your reason for not skip-shifting on upshifts, you are spot on correct. In your second paragraph where you state that you try to pickup new techniques to help make you a better manual user, my hat's off to you on this one. I still continue trying to improve my techniques because I know both me and my car will benefit.
In your third paragraph where you talk about people who believe that just because they have been driving manual transmissions for XX years, they know all there is to know about them. WRONG! My father-in-law (who has passed on) drove manuals for as many years (or more) as I have to this point in my life and he was one of the worse manual drivers I've ever encountered.. just the way he learned, I suppose.
You six numbered bad habit items could be poster clues as to what NOT to do. I would add to this; 7. resting the left foot on the clutch pedal while driving; 8. using more RPMs than necessary to launch the car from a stop. Item #8 has two negatives attached to it which go hand-in-hand. The first is the fact that over-revving when starting off puts unecessary and additional wear on the clutch assembly. The second is the fact that if a driver does this, he will have to slip the clutch longer until the speed of the car catches up the the engine RPMs.
Oh, for you #3 item, don't forget to engage the clutch some as you pass through the neutral gate (double clutching) in order to spin up the drive gears just before completing the shift. This significantly reduces the stress and wear on the synchronizers and makes the shift almost effortless smooth.
But good for you. Nice post and you are obviously on the right path as a manual tranny user.
Thanks SB... forums like this really helped me in learning these things as they should. But as far as the 3rd paragraph, i think what you said and what i wrote are in agreement. as i read threads about MTs, there's always people who try to defend their driving skills by stating 'I've been driving sticks all my life... or I've had ____ stick car in the past...' and honestly, I don't mean to take anything away from them... but like many things, just b/c you've been doing it a long time, doesn't mean you've been doing it right.
Don't mean to hijack this thread, but the OP did mention he's had MT cars in the past and i had my opinions on the matter.
To get as basic as possible, the OP, hurried by the possibility of speeding traffic running up on him, made a mistake. In retrospect, there are many things he could've and should've done, but in that split second he made that mistake. But isn't that the ultimate point? being able to take the correct actions in times of panic.
10-21-2006, 03:24 PM
#59
www.seattlewhips.com
Originally Posted by fast-tl
Whoa, Whoa, easy girl. While it may be WRONG according to you, the person was recommending what could've been done in the context of the original poster's situation, not on a regular basis. They're suggesting that he could've shiftetd from 3rd>5th, as I suggested, rather than accidentally shifting into 2nd asnd bouncing valves off of pistons.
Please read more carefully next time before blurting out that someone is WRONG.
Jenna did NOT rock in this case.
Please read more carefully next time before blurting out that someone is WRONG.
Jenna did NOT rock in this case.
btw.. im a guy... I had a Lexus SC400 that i used to call Jenna... one of the most solid cars i've ever owned. thus jennarocks.
10-21-2006, 04:00 PM
#60
I love cars!
^^Oopsie!
Well, I hope the OP can understand he just has some bad luck on his hands. That said, I would certainly try to show that the lemon-fresh tranny did **contribute** to the missed shift, and see if Acura will split the repair by some percentage. However, I don't think it's fair to say ACS is useless because they won't cover his mistake.
Well, I hope the OP can understand he just has some bad luck on his hands. That said, I would certainly try to show that the lemon-fresh tranny did **contribute** to the missed shift, and see if Acura will split the repair by some percentage. However, I don't think it's fair to say ACS is useless because they won't cover his mistake.
10-21-2006, 08:14 PM
#61
Registered Member
Originally Posted by jennarocks
Thanks SB... forums like this really helped me in learning these things as they should. But as far as the 3rd paragraph, i think what you said and what i wrote are in agreement. as i read threads about MTs, there's always people who try to defend their driving skills by stating 'I've been driving sticks all my life... or I've had ____ stick car in the past...' and honestly, I don't mean to take anything away from them... but like many things, just b/c you've been doing it a long time, doesn't mean you've been doing it right.
For proof.. just take a ride with such an individual. Maybe you'll get lucky and find someone who really is a seasoned pro and does things right, but I would wager that would not be the case. There is absolutely no shame in admitting you don't know something. There is shame it trying to sell something that is not valid or true.
The really sad thing is that most people learn to operate a manual transmission from someone who teaches them their own misguided way. And the new manual driver doesn't know any better so that's how he begins and continues his manual operation. You would think that they would learn how a manual transmission and clutch assembly work and then just use their heads, putting 2 and 2 together to figure out what is right.. what is correct. But that rarely happens. So they go through their clutch in maybe 50,000 to 70,000 miles and think that's normal. Then when someone tells them that they should expect 3 to 4 times that kind of mileage out of a clutch, they look at you like you're nuts.
Oh well.. enjoy the weekend.
10-21-2006, 08:48 PM
#62
Instructor
Thread Starter
Well for those who may think that I don't know how to drive manual my integra had 140K miles on it, original clutch with no signs of slippage. The only problem I ever had with that car was sometimes I could not get the car into 1st gear, I'd have to slip it into 2nd then back into first. I also went through 1 set of brakes at 86K.
10-21-2006, 10:08 PM
#64
04 NBP 6MT
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I was trying really hard to restrain myself and not weigh in on this thread, but I've been sitting around my ghetto fabulous apartment drinking (Hercules IPA and Loose Cannon - highly recommended for those over 21 who appreciate hoppy brews) and I can't contain myself anymore.
1. Southernboy is correct - gears in manual transmissions are helical and always engaged (with the exception of reverse)
2. Old buddy mis-shifted. This is not Acura's fault. It does NOT matter that it popped out of 4th - he should have put it back in 4th and not 2nd
3. In old buddy's defense, the 6 forward gears in the TL (and my RSX I crashed) are sometimes a lot to deal with - personally, I think 5 is a sufficient number of forward gears. I have missed a gear every now and again in my TL and am always super careful to err on the side of caution when shifting (i.e. I put in in 6th when going for 4th if I'm in doubt).
4. I forgot what 4 is.
5. I'm super disappointed that Jennarocks is a guy.
1. Southernboy is correct - gears in manual transmissions are helical and always engaged (with the exception of reverse)
2. Old buddy mis-shifted. This is not Acura's fault. It does NOT matter that it popped out of 4th - he should have put it back in 4th and not 2nd
3. In old buddy's defense, the 6 forward gears in the TL (and my RSX I crashed) are sometimes a lot to deal with - personally, I think 5 is a sufficient number of forward gears. I have missed a gear every now and again in my TL and am always super careful to err on the side of caution when shifting (i.e. I put in in 6th when going for 4th if I'm in doubt).
4. I forgot what 4 is.
5. I'm super disappointed that Jennarocks is a guy.
10-22-2006, 07:59 AM
#66
Registered Member
Originally Posted by Papaman677
Well for those who may think that I don't know how to drive manual my integra had 140K miles on it, original clutch with no signs of slippage. The only problem I ever had with that car was sometimes I could not get the car into 1st gear, I'd have to slip it into 2nd then back into first. I also went through 1 set of brakes at 86K.
Your 140,000 miles and still going is great. Congrats for that. Recently, I read a link from a post on this site from a buy in Detroit, as I recall. He writes for a newspaper (I think that's right), and he had an Intregra with 315,000 miles and still on the factory clutch! Tell that to the naysayers. It can be done. He commuted every day in this car through work traffic, too.
Enjoy!
10-22-2006, 01:32 PM
#67
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by SouthernBoy
Intregra with 315,000 miles and still on the factory clutch! Tell that to the naysayers. It can be done. He commuted every day in this car through work traffic, too.
Guess you could say I have been following this thread as well and this "sidebar" is getting old.. Sure, driving in a way that is most conducive to mitigating clutch wear is a good thing but not a requirement for a clutch assembly to last 80 -100 thousand miles - what I would call the minimum life of a good clutch.
What many are seeing in the TL is a sign of the times with manufacturers under engineering mechanicals to a degree to minimize costs (and possibly facilitate follow-on repair profits...). Also, during my 8+ years as a dealership mechanic where we handled 6 different automotive manufacturers, if a clutch went out prior to the warranty expiring, it was warranty.. At that time manufacturers didn't hide behind a "wear and tear"/abusive driving" theory of how to avoid warranty issues!!
Anyway, its blatantly obvious to me that either their are many TL 6MT's with bad clutches, or the TL's clutch assembly is completely inadequate for a 250+ HP car. And the later is the top pick. No matter what the driver experience or technique is, a clutch should not begin slipping/failing in that short amount of time. It may chatter or show signs of burning/glazing etc.. But not the slipping I have read about so many time etc..
Back off my soap-box...
10-22-2006, 03:11 PM
#69
10th Gear
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I have to agree with KJSmitty I would say a majority of people don't follow southernboy's 8 rules and their clutches last over 100K. The fact that 3G TL's clutches are failing at 15k miles is ridiculous.
10-22-2006, 03:12 PM
#70
Registered Member
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
Lets be honest, clutches aren't designed/engineered for the person who "constantly tries to perfect his/her techniques"... Quite the opposite.. They are normally designed to take "normal driver abuse" and last for years etc..
Guess you could say I have been following this thread as well and this "sidebar" is getting old.. Sure, driving in a way that is most conducive to mitigating clutch wear is a good thing but not a requirement for a clutch assembly to last 80 -100 thousand miles - what I would call the minimum life of a good clutch.
What many are seeing in the TL is a sign of the times with manufacturers under engineering mechanicals to a degree to minimize costs (and possibly facilitate follow-on repair profits...). Also, during my 8+ years as a dealership mechanic where we handled 6 different automotive manufacturers, if a clutch went out prior to the warranty expiring, it was warranty.. At that time manufacturers didn't hide behind a "wear and tear"/abusive driving" theory of how to avoid warranty issues!!
Anyway, its blatantly obvious to me that either their are many TL 6MT's with bad clutches, or the TL's clutch assembly is completely inadequate for a 250+ HP car. And the later is the top pick. No matter what the driver experience or technique is, a clutch should not begin slipping/failing in that short amount of time. It may chatter or show signs of burning/glazing etc.. But not the slipping I have read about so many time etc..
Back off my soap-box...
Guess you could say I have been following this thread as well and this "sidebar" is getting old.. Sure, driving in a way that is most conducive to mitigating clutch wear is a good thing but not a requirement for a clutch assembly to last 80 -100 thousand miles - what I would call the minimum life of a good clutch.
What many are seeing in the TL is a sign of the times with manufacturers under engineering mechanicals to a degree to minimize costs (and possibly facilitate follow-on repair profits...). Also, during my 8+ years as a dealership mechanic where we handled 6 different automotive manufacturers, if a clutch went out prior to the warranty expiring, it was warranty.. At that time manufacturers didn't hide behind a "wear and tear"/abusive driving" theory of how to avoid warranty issues!!
Anyway, its blatantly obvious to me that either their are many TL 6MT's with bad clutches, or the TL's clutch assembly is completely inadequate for a 250+ HP car. And the later is the top pick. No matter what the driver experience or technique is, a clutch should not begin slipping/failing in that short amount of time. It may chatter or show signs of burning/glazing etc.. But not the slipping I have read about so many time etc..
Back off my soap-box...
I have written many times that barring racing, towing, or other abnormal, unique, or stressful conditions, the three primary reasons for clutch assembly failure are: poor design, improper installation, or operator error - in no particular order. Of these the overwhelming reason is operator error. However, from what we have seen here in several instances tends to skew the reason towards poor design (as you inferred). That would truly be a sad thing since clutches are not rocket science and have been around longer than any of us on this site have been alive.
With my last car, a 2002 Altima SE, some of the guys on that site started complaining of "howling" and shuttering, or chattering, from the clutch. As I recall, Nissan also claimed that a clutch was a wear item and only covered for 1 year or 12,000 miles (do you think there's something in the water with this?).
As for your statement, "clutches aren't designed/engineered for the person who "constantly tries to perfect his/her techniques"... Quite the opposite.. They are normally designed to take "normal driver abuse" and last for years etc". Yes, in almost all cases, I would agree with this. Manufacturers strive to design their vehicles to appeal and satisfy the widest market possible for a specific class of vehicle. They don't have a clue who is going to wind up with what and how it's going to be used.
I'm rambling and a football game is about to begin, so I'll say "hey" for now.
10-22-2006, 06:28 PM
#73
Registered Member
Originally Posted by subinf
What does this clutch stuff have to do with the bent valves. Its very fascinating, but relevant??
So I suppose I wil take some of the blame for the creeping thread.
10-22-2006, 07:06 PM
#74
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by subinf
What does this clutch stuff have to do with the bent valves. Its very fascinating, but relevant??
True, we did get off topic..
I concur that the bent valve issue, though not entirely Acura's responsibility could be partially - given the issue many experience shifting the 6MT.To me it's logical by looking at the root cause. IE, he ended up in second gear due to the trans kicking him out of 4th initially...
BUT, non of us (nor Acura) really know whether this was caused by the transmission or an attempted shift with only a partially disengaged clutch.....
Then again, I ma just reiterating what others have mentioned..
Cheers all.
10-22-2006, 07:29 PM
#75
K-Fed's Stunt Double
Here is my take on this all:
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
10-22-2006, 07:52 PM
#76
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by drtoth
Here is my take on this all:
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
He did not intend to put it in 2nd gear... He thought it went into 4th..
IE, he was aiming at the the tree, but when the gun went off the schizophrenic jumped in front of the gun...
10-22-2006, 07:57 PM
#77
One on the right for me
Originally Posted by drtoth
Here is my take on this all:
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
I shot the man and killed him but he told me to do it.
Right, like that's going to take the blame off you to go shoot someone take their life and then say that the only reason you did it was because he had schizophrenia and said do it.
Bottom line is never ever do something that YOU are responsible for and can risk alot of $$$, as in this case.
What the hell? Care to make more sense out of that.
10-22-2006, 08:19 PM
#78
K-Fed's Stunt Double
How is it "acura's fault" if he's the one that f'd up the tranny?
That's like saying a paranoid schizophrenic patient told you to shoot him, and then you go to court with your only line of defense being "he told me to do it"
That makes plenty much sense to me.
That's like saying a paranoid schizophrenic patient told you to shoot him, and then you go to court with your only line of defense being "he told me to do it"
That makes plenty much sense to me.
10-22-2006, 08:28 PM
#79
One on the right for me
Originally Posted by drtoth
That's like saying a paranoid schizophrenic patient told you to shoot him, and then you go to court with your only line of defense being "he told me to do it"
That makes plenty much sense to me.
Not as a general principle, but in relation to the problem with Acura. How are you connecting the two? He isnt saying "Acura told me to shift into 2nd so I did."
10-23-2006, 08:23 AM
#80
K-Fed's Stunt Double
He's blaming someone else for what he did.
he keeps saying "so on and so on" is useless.
Why are they useless? Because they won't repair something he did?
I'm using that above example because Acura didn't tell him to shift into 2nd, but they did expect him to know better and intervene on the situation rather than actually do it.
Going to the above example, if the person did not shoot the paranoid schizophrenic, and called the police or mental institution, the situation would have been fixed. Same as this case, if the person shifting the car had not done something he should KNOW will bend his valves (manual all his life he should know that) and called or went to Acura before it happened and actually told them again, then MAYBE this situation would have been fixed.
I personally think he didn't let the gear click before he shifted and it only popped due to poor engagement.
he keeps saying "so on and so on" is useless.
Why are they useless? Because they won't repair something he did?
I'm using that above example because Acura didn't tell him to shift into 2nd, but they did expect him to know better and intervene on the situation rather than actually do it.
Going to the above example, if the person did not shoot the paranoid schizophrenic, and called the police or mental institution, the situation would have been fixed. Same as this case, if the person shifting the car had not done something he should KNOW will bend his valves (manual all his life he should know that) and called or went to Acura before it happened and actually told them again, then MAYBE this situation would have been fixed.
I personally think he didn't let the gear click before he shifted and it only popped due to poor engagement.