SouthernBoy

I came so close to buying a new TL last Monday, but decide to hold off a bit mostly due to having read some of the postings on this site. This is not a bad thing for me. I'm actually thankful to y'all for supplying the info which helped me to take this decision for the time being.

I currently own a 2002 Altima SE (214 cubic inch V6, of course.. I hate the term "liters") with a manual transmission. I have a Frankencar intake with the Apexi dry element filter, an Unorthodox Racing UDP, and a Mossy catback exhaust. Near as I can estimate, it's pushing around 265 HP and about the same figure in the torque area. The car does run well.

But my main concerns are some of the on-going problems that Nissan has been experiencing with this model. I've already blown my original MAF earlier this year (and I am not hard on the car). When it was in for the MAF replacement, they also replaced the crank position sensor which was in recall. Now I find that some of the people on the site I visit are having problems with the precats busting up and some of the material is getting drawn back into the cylinders. There goes the walls and rings and if the debris gets into the oil, bye-bye bearings, followers, cam lobes... you name it. Several members have had to have their engines replaces. This is mostly a thing with the 4-cylinders, but some V6 owners are getting bit, too.

So that's why I was looking at the new TL. Really a drop dead beautiful car. But I am not quite ready to take the plunge just yet, I suppose. I see some of you are having some problems, too. First year models can be raft with problems for sure.

boltjames

Good decision! The others in here are 100% correct. The car is awful. Oh, the rattles. Oh, the torque steer. Oh, the Bridgestones. Did you hear about the drooping headliners? Did you hear about the 'pop' sound from the speakers?

The car is a disaster. Pity anyone who buys a TL without reading the awful stories in this forum first. Run, run for the hills.

BJ

baddawwg

I would think after 58000 produced, Acura would have fixed a few things. I almost took the plunge on the 30th. Dealer had an Anthracite/Camel with Navi on the lot. We to make a deal to get rid of my 2G and it turned out it was sold! Maybe it was an omen. Don't see many with that color combo. It looked sharp. I think the Camel looks the best of the interior colors.

SouthernBoy

Crazy as i may sound to some of you, I am also looking at the 2005 Ford Focus ZX4 ST; an excellent "compact sedan" for the driver-oriented person.

Before you laugh me out of here, I have to tell you that the two most reliable cars I've ever owned... were both Fords. My '88 Mustang LX 302CID and my current 2001 Ford Ranger pickup "mulch-getter" as my wife calls it. And my third most reliable car was also a Ford.. a 1996 Contour SE. My Altima has been in the dealer's shop 4 times: replaced coil packs under a TSB the first month I had it; replaced an air bag sensor behind the front bumper on recall; replaced a defective clutch pedal assembly under warranty soon after purchase; and replaced a blown MAF last March.

New cars are not supposed to go back for repairs, are they? At least, that's a reason commonly given for buying a new car.

I'm gonna wait for the '05 model year to see how my Altima fairs and to see how the TL does.

SouthernBoy

Oh, one other thing. This is not meant in any measure to offend anyone, but I might be a little hestitant to take the plunge because I would miss the power of my Altima by going to the TL. While the stock rating for the new TL is 270 HP, it is only 238 lb/ft of torque and with the manual transmission, the final drive ratio is 3.29 which is pretty high. My altima has a stock torque rating of 246 lb/ft and with my mods, it probably around 265-270 lb/ft and it goes through a 3.81 final drive which is quite a bit lower than your 3.29. Torque is what you feel all the time; horsepower is only felt under a lot of throttle as the engine winds up.

Also, doesn't the Acura engine still use a timing belt? Terrible design. My engine has chains.

Still, I think that once Acura works out the new-release bugs, the TL is a hot contender for the best mid-sized performance sedan on the market.

boltjames

Acura is a luxury brand.

Nissan is a pedestrian brand.

You can't compare the two cars. Enjoy your 'chain' even if it's in a car my mother-in-law drives to church each Sunday.

BJ

SouthernBoy

Hey boltjames;

Believe me.. I'm not knocking the Acura. It's just that Honda still has not learned how to design an engine. But they're not alone. As for the Nissan, I'm not necessarily a fan of them. I will admit that their V6 is one of the best you can get. But like all cars, they have their problems.

Yes, I know that Acura is viewed as a 'luxury" car by some, but, infact, it is not. Regarding the TL, it's classed as an upscale mid-sized sedan. This is not a bad thing because that is one heck of a good market in which to be competing.

If I wanted pure luxury at an affordable price, I'd probably be looking at a 7-series BMW or maybe a Mercedes. But neither of those cars appeal to me. The TL DOES appeal to me for a number of reasons.

I was not making a direct comparision between my Altima SE and the TL. And I agree with your inferrence that such a comparison would be like comparing apples to oranges.. accept in a few areas. If I wanted pure performance in a "luxury" sedan, it would not be the TL.. I'd have to be the Cadillac CTS-V. But $50K+ would make me nervous to take it out in everyday traffic.. the TL would be bad enough in that view.

If it were up to my wife, a new black/quartz TL would have come home with me last Monday.. manual transmission of course since I would not even consider a car with an automatic. But it didn't.

boltjames

These could be the two most humourous statements in the history of internet automotive forums. Quite an achievement. Congrats.

BJ

EmuMessenger

The 7 series is definitely affordable luxury.

Let's see... The national average income for a family of 4 is 54,000, and the base price for a 7 series is somewhere around 70,000.

That is definitely affordable luxury!

Well stated!

shawn744

ok, i thought that i had to add to the fire.. i had a 96 maxima and a 97 maxima and they both sucked....the interior and exterior quality sucked....the engine knocked like a motha WHEN IT WAS 5 DAYS OLD!...i sat in the new maximas, i didn't like the quality of the interior. i love my 03 TL-S....tranny is a bit rough, but when it warms up it's awesome. A few months ago i went to my acura dealer and test drove a new TL with navi. it was really something (anth/camel interior).

one thing about nissans though, they're quick, fast, and they jump....but i wouldn't buy one.

shawn744

dude, what are you talking about, an S55 AMG would be affordable to a family making around 60,000......................................*cough *

EmuMessenger

I hate to switch sides for a sec, but the 96 Maxima SE 5MT I traded for my 99 TL did not hold a candle performance wise to the car. Although, it severely lacked the xenon lights and navi my TL had.

It was also one of my favorite cars.

need4spd

Me too, the 96 Max SE I had and sold for the 04TL was one of the best and most reliable cars I ever had, one recall for an O2 sensor, or some other emisions thing, but other than that I was only back to the stealer 2 other times, no other car I had (I have had many) can claim that.

It just goes to show you, every car maker has good cars and really bad ones (this is for you bolt james).

unfortunately, my 04 TL was one of the really bad ones, so bad ever acura listened.

Southernboy, you made the right call, but I will say that no new car seems to be as good as the Mid-90's and all have lost a little quality.

I think it has to do with the depreciation of the US dollar vs euro and yen.

SouthernBoy

Boy, if I didn't know any better, I'd think that some of you are taking me and my posts to the cleaners (imagine that), when what I am really trying to say is that I am quite drawn to the new TL. I love it's looks and so much else about the car. Thanks to need4spd because I think he sees where I'm coming from with this.

As for luxury and affordability, one is a stated "absolute" while the other is relative. I would have a hard time spending $50K+ for a car that would be my main transportation because I'm rather anal as it is about my cars and that would make me nuts with worry (dings, scratches, etc.). As for the "absolute' thing, my meaning here is what the industry and the automotive press tends to assign such tags to cars. But luxury for a man who makes $30,000 may mean a Ford Taurus or a Honda EX. To me, luxury has certain meanings, too. I personally do not care for luxury cars (for some reasons already given) but mainly because I like performance-oriented driver's machines. The previous mentioned Cadillac CTS-V or the Z06 Corvette fall right into that catagory for me.

As for my use of the term upscale mid-sized car for the TL, I got that from the auto-press, so it's not mine to claim.

It seems with you people that comparing(?) Nissans and Acuras is similar to those who having been fighting for years about Fords and Chevies. There will always be those who lay claim to one being better than the other. The true measure is to take it all in, then take one's decision quietly and with a knowledge gained from research and the experience of others. That's what I'm trying to do.. read your postings and learn as much as I can about the TL before I commit.

One more time. I really like the TL from the looks department, but having not driven it, I haven't a clue in that area, so your posts are most welcome until I do. I have been told by another Altima SE owner that he was disappointed in the lack of power compared to his Altima. I would suspect he is referring to the same thing I spoke of earlier.. that of less torque and a higher final drive ratio, but I don't know.

One other thing. Power. It's very interesting to me that some people on the Altimas website think that the SE has gobs of horsepower and torque. Well that's a relative thing too because if your point of referrence is a 4-cylinder Honda or Saturn, then certainly the Altima SE is going to feel like a street monster. But my point of referrence with performance machines is those with 400 - 600 horsepower and torque figures over 500 lb/ft. So while the Altima SE is a quick mid-sized sedan, it is by no means a street monster.. and neither would the TL manage this feat. So I would be careful to compare the TL's straight line performance with that of my Altima SE and my guess is the TL would loose in that department. But that alone would not be the sole determinating factor for a final decision.

Good Lord, I've eaten up enough space with this already. Thanks for the input!

boltjames

Ford and Chevrolet are both non-luxury cars. Pedestrian cars who's lines feature 'budget' and 'midrange' vehicles. Not about luxury. Not about status. Only about bare-bones transportation.

Honda and Nissan are also non-luxury cars. Pedestrian cars who's lines feature 'budget' and 'midrange' vehicles. Not about luxury. Not about status. Only about bare-bones transportation, but with a flair for the sporty performance that GM lacks.

Acura and Infinity are luxury cars. They don't make budget, pedestrian models. They're about stauts and (in their cases) luxury value.

Your comparison of an Altima to a TL is like a comparison of a Pontiac Grand Am to a BMW 5. It's laughable. People who can afford the TL and can appreciate its amenities are people who could afford the BMW 5 or Mercedes E and choose not to as they can get a better car for far less money. Keep the luxury badge, get more luxurious features, keep the car out of the shop, and save some bucks in the process. It's smart.

No one, not a single person alive, would trade down from a TL to an Altima. They'd go Accord first. The Accord is not a luxury car. Neither is the Altima. I asked my 70 year old mother-in-law.....she agrees with me.

BJ

baddawwg

Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Audi/VW{Porsche}, Saab/GM, Ford/Jaguar/Volvo, now Mercedes/Chrysler. Seems the only dedicated Luxury nameplate left is BMW. Very few luxury cars are luxury only. Nearly all have a parent/sibling/child relationship. What you usually get is the basic underpinnings, usually upgraded enough to change the character, a jazzed up interior, and better warranty.

I can tell you that the new Nissans subjectively have a very cheap look to the interior. That looked is shared by their Inifiniti cousins, of which some will receive a remake. Performance wise, the Altima may post similar numbers, but the method of execution is substantially less rewarding. Squeeks, rattles and cheap plastic don't cut it for me, no matter how fast they are.

SouthernBoy

It seems that boltjames doesn't get my drift, but that's fine with me. I'm not in here to pick arguments with any members or to debate the merits of a Nissan product and an Acura product. there was a time when I had strong brand loyalty (I was a solid Chevy man), but those times died many years ago. While my preference is to buy American (because I am one), my money goes with my automobile desires and as you can see, that's currently not a domestic brand.. just like the TL (yeah, I know they're both made here but they are not owned here). I purchase what appeals to my interests at the time and if that happens to be foreign, then so be it.

I never inferred that Ford or Chevy were luxury cars although Ford has a luxury twin in Lincoln and they do own Jaguar and Aston Martin. And I was never trying to compare Altima with TL.. just pointing out a few areas where I had some concerns. I totally agree that the TL has a MUCH better interior, but I have an issue with that too where I think Altima is better.. by design. The back seat goes down in the Altima where it doesn't in the TL. Plus my trunk is 15.6 cubic feet. Concerns for long trips or long items carried, but not in and of themselves deal killers to me.

The statement, "No one, not a single person alive, would trade down from a TL to an Altima" is in itself, laughable because it would be next to impossible to evaluate 6.2 billion people as to their preferences in this area. Suffice it to say that probably most all people who own a TL would consider an Altima and I can certainly buy that.

Incidently, I just got back from visiting a local Acura dealer's lot to see what's new there. I've sat in several TL's but they were automatics. How does the manual shifter feel? Is it rubbery or pretty solid with nice little "snicks" as it moves through the gears? Anyone had any problems with hitting 6th instead of fourth gear when shifting quickly? Is the clutch takeup long or rather short? And does the clutch begin to engage right off the floor or is there, say, around 2 inches of free travel before engagement begin?

Saintor

Huh huh. Why are you making us lose our time? You are ridiculous. If you can't afford the TL, get your... Ford.

SouthernBoy

Somehow, I get the feeling that some of you think I am picking your TL's apart and you're getting a little defensive about this. Please understand.. I am seeking information about the car and your experiences, NOT looking to dittle with prose. I am considering the TL in '05 as a strong potential replacement for my Altima which, while runs fine now, concerns me because of some of the problems that other owners are seeing. I do not wish to find myself at 4:30 in the morning on some stretch of I-95 South with an engine which has just decided to take a permanent lunch break. So you input is valuable to me.. both positive and negative.

BTW, I meant to say "would not consider an Altima" in my last statement, "Suffice it to say that probably most all people who own a TL would consider an Altima and I can certainly buy that".

As for baddawwg's statements about the appearance of some of Nissan's offerings, I agree. Though completely subjective, it seems that there are some things which are universal. I was never a fan of the appearance of the new Altima and I do not like the looks of the new Maxima at all. I prefer understated elegance and the TL fits that description much more closely in my opinion.

Some of the things I like to consider are this. How easy is it to change the oil on the TL? The Altima is extremely easy. What about changing the plugs in the rear bank of cylinders? With the Altima, you have to remove the upper section of the intake manifold.. not fun. How about changing the tranny fluid? With the Altima, it's a very messy job. And so on.

Opinions, comments??

SouthernBoy

To Saintor;

Make no mistake, I can most definitely afford a TL otherwise wwhy would I ever mention the Cadillac CTS-V? And I thank you for your arrogance, sir. Hopefully, you're not a shining example of the membership of this forum.

GaleForce

Moderators?

SouthernBoy

Thank you GaleForce. Though I am capable of handling my own, I welcome some semblance of decorum in a forum where the exchange of ideas, opinions, and information is the reason for its existence. Nice way to treat a new member, one might think.

Anyway, I still wish to hear others' experiences and opinions of the TL.

apwalsh

SouthernBoy: Nevermind BoltJames, He's just an idiot who has someone weaseled his way back here after being banned.

If you are seriously considering the TL, then I'm sure you will be able to find plenty of information here by using the search function. These kinds of posts tend to start pissing matches about manufacturers and who's better, etc etc. You also mentioned that you would have purchased a TL if it were up to your wife, which makes it sound as if you were in the dealer and ALMOST came home with a TL already, but decided to do some more research here. Now that's a prudent move on your part, but sir, why did you not TEST DRIVE the damn car and come to your opwn conclusions about some of the things you mentioned. Then come back here and futher discuss your experiences, and we might be able to add something to what you already know from the test drive.

Good Luck with your decision

GaleForce

My opinion is that if you chose not to buy the TL because of what you read on this board you made a big and stupid mistake, and thats the simplest answer I can give you. I say this to EVERYONE who comes on and says the same thing you did, but it never seems to get through; complains speak louder than compliments. Use your head. Why would anyone come on the board everyday something isn't wrong with their car? "My TL is running great today guys!" It makes absolutely no sense. The whole purpose of these forums are to discuss the TL, and we all know its a great car so we don't need to have an egofest praising the car everyday. Instead, we post the problems we have. No car is perfect, as I believe you understand, neither is this car. You buy this car, you will have a problem with it, you buy any car, there WILL be a problem, it happens. But I can tell you that this is a very small percentage of TL-owners on this board and it completely misrepresents most of us because most of us don't have the "common" problems, and thus we won't post about it, and thats why you see "everyone" posting about problems.

SouthernBoy

To GaleForce;

A "big" mistake would have sufficed in your response, but I can handle that, too.

Not sure about, " say this to EVERYONE who comes on and says the same thing you did, but it never seems to get through; complains speak louder than compliments. Use your head. Why would anyone come on the board everyday something isn't wrong with their car?" because I am using my head... that's why I'm reading the postings on this site.

As for the rest of your response, I like to read the good and the no-so-good. Information is a good thing, regardless of whether or not it's an "egofest praising the car everyday". No one likes to make a mistake.. especially when it could cost them thousands of dollars. I started looking at the new TL some months ago. Three years ago, I drove a then new TL Type-S and was not at all impressed. Yes, there were some nice thinks about it and I really liked the way the car looked, but in my opinion the new TL far exceeds the prior one in appearance. But because of some of the recent things that have been popping up with the new Altimas, you can imagine where I might be a little gunshy.

So I puruse your site to see what others have to say about the TL and you're right. Most all have nothing to say but praise. I would just like to get some additional info.. that's all.


To apwalsh;

I took my wife to the local dealer last Sunday. They were closed, of course. So that afternoon I cleaned out all of my personal items from my Altima in preparation of taking my title and car to that same dealer on Monday morning for negotiations. Then my objective side set in and with that and time to think where I was going with this, I decided to hold off. I knew that if I went in for a test drive, then I might very well come home with the car.. my wife fully expected that to be the case.

But I visited this site first and found some fresh postings about a whole lot of problems some of the members had been experiencing, a few of which were the same things being seen with the Altima. And that's the main reason I took the decision to give it a little time and a model year change in hopes that these things would be worked out by Acura. While I value my wife's opinions, she does not interfere with my decisions about my cars or my guns. She knows I have my preferences and she is very good about respecting that. She drives a '96 BMW 328i so shes happy with what she has.

Oh, and I don't mind boltjames or Saintor either for that matter. Don't know the gentlemen and I'm quite sure I never will. But I do thank you sir for your comments and the manner in which you delivered them.

GaleForce

Just go to any car forum. You're still not seeing things logically. Imagine if everyone here created a thread whenever they didn't have a problem with the car. It would make no sense to, and people don't do it. If you'd like, I'll make a thread everytime I go out and drive my car and don't have a problem. Likewise, anytime someone goes out and DOES have a problem, they'll make a thread. Thats why complaints speak louder. Because people complain when there is a problem, but they don't praise EVERYTIME there isn't.

Don't believe me? Go to any car forum.

Goodie

Honda still has not learned how to design an engine?

swtjazz

I pity anyone who uses a discussion forum to purchase a car. A few griping people do not determine the quality or reliability of any car. Acura's reputation speaks for itself. Test drive the car and look at the companies history. Talk to people (non forum members) who own Acuras and who are not influenced by hype. Good Luck.

SouthernBoy

To Goodie;

Timing belts. Interference engines. Bad design. However, they're not alone.


To GaleForce and swtjazz;

Not sure about the, "You're still not seeing things logically" remark. I am just looking for info, that's all. As for swtjazz saying, pitying anyone who uses a discussion forum to purchase a car, pity is not the word which comes to mind, but rather don't rely on just this source would be more in line in my opinion.

Look people, information is gold. The more one can gather the better. So a discussion forum is a good place to start or to gain some valuable "inside" info. But it's certainly not the end all.

If I had know my questions and such were going to garnish this much friction, Lord knows I'd never have asked in the first place. I just took it for granted that since y'all are supposed to be Tl enthusiats and I'm a new and "learning" member, your forum might be an excellent place to start.
Guess I was mistaken. But no harm done. I have had my eyes opened in some areas for sure.

Goodie

Timing belts are common on Honda engines, as are “interference” designs. These same Honda engines have a high HP output per liter, exhibit good fuel efficiency, produce low emissions, and have a stellar reliability. Obviously there is a problem with the design. Where is the problem?

Harkov

SouthernBoy, If you're such a fan of the nissan brand, why aren't you seriously considering the G35?

As for other 'opinions' on the TL, I love mine, to quote GaleForce: "My TL is running great today guys!" . Of course there are random annoyances, but you'll find that with any car you buy these days.

you're seriously considering buying this car and you haven't test driven a 6mt yet? I would think that is a significantly more important step in the buying process than getting affirmation from an Internet message board....

I love the shifter, it's silky smooth, no problems getting into any gear 'quickly'. As discussed on this board on numerous occasions, some people dislike the 1st->2nd gearing, but once you drive it for a day or two, you'll probably get used to it.

Incidently, I blew away a 350z this weekend, he looked quite suprised at the next light Did I mention I love this car?

1hottl

I my TL!

SouthernBoy

To harkov;

Never said I was a fan of Nissans. In fact, I said I don't really have any stated brand loyalty.. that I tend to buy what satisfies my wants and needs at the time. In the strictly looks department, the TL completes beats anything Nissan has to offer.. in my opinion of course. As for considering the G35, I did around the end of last year, but since it's still a Nissan and could very well be afflicted with some of the same problems being found in the Altimas and Maximas, I decided against that move. But I do like its looks and the fact that it's a RWD car. However I think the TL has the G35 beat in overall interior and exterior appearance.

I certainly agree with you about the "random annoyances" thing. No car's perfect and some seem to be plagued with problems from the get go. And yes, you're right about taking a test drive. But I am afraid if I did that, I'd buy the car now and not wait out the next few months for the '05 models to see of some of the new-model bugs have been worked out.

Congrats on the dusting of the 350Z. That's impressive. And thanks for your pleasant response. I was beginning to wonder... Primarily because when I first came on this forum the other day, I received less than a friendly welcome. Needless to say, this was rather disconcerting and left a sour taste in my mouth. But I was still hoping to open a discourse to get some input. So thanks again for yours.

foot3ch

I think you just think too much about it. I always want to be #1, just like in car. I want to be the coolest, fastest, tightest around my friends or to anybody. But you know what, there is always someone that has a better/faster/cooler car than you. Just think how much money you wanna spend, I only have enough money to get a TL so I went test drive it a, I liked it, so I purchased it. Any car is gonna have a problem, even all the brand ones. And, don't ask too many features for 35k car, you pay what u get. Perhaps the new M5 with 507hp will satisfy you in performance, but how about price? gas? insurance? etc. So, if you like it, go get one and enjoy your TL. Good luck.

dseag2

If you were looking for constructive input, here's mine...

Boltjames was right... there are people on this forum who could have afforded a BMW 5 Series or a Mercedes E-Class but chose the TL because it has more features and is a better value overall. I'm one of them. As for the CTS-V, regardless of how fast it is I wouldn't even consider it because the interior quality just doesn't do it for me. The new STS, maybe.

As for impressions/problems... I owned a '99 TL for 2.5 years. Never had ONE problem with it, and it was one of the first of the new models. Owned an '03 Lexus GS300 prior to my current TL and never had any problems with it either. I actually had more minor problems with the '03 SC430 I owned in between, and it is the most expensive car I've ever owned. The TL is much more fun than any of the other cars, and after 2 months and 1,700 miles I love it and haven't had any problems AT ALL.

I also read this forum before purchasing my TL but found the enthusiasm of the owners far outweighed any problems they were having. In the end, it was my decision to make, and mine alone, and I'm glad I took the plunge. I wouldn't have wanted to deprive myself of such a great automobile any longer than necessary.

Hope that helps, and welcome to the forum!

SouthernBoy

To foot3ch;

Yeah, you're probably right about the thinking too much, but that's just my nature.. to be analytical. Perhaps that's why I'm a software engineer. Probably comes with the territory. I do tend to do a lot of research before I purchase a new car and I suspect it's because I have to go through a period of convincing myself that's really what I want to do. Except when I bought my '88 Mustang LX 302CID. That was a no-brainer. And being a gearhead can be a hinderance because it can limit one's choices. As for the M5, I wouldn't want one. They're a little too large and expensive for my tastes. Plus I have one BMW (wife and I own it), and frankly, I'm not too thrilled with them.. very costly when maintenance and repairs are in order. Plus, if BMW is a good example of German automobile engineering, I find it a little over the top.


To dseag2;

This close to the 2005 model year begs me to wait 'til they come out instead of going for an '04 model.. unless I were to find the one I wanted, sitting on a lot with the dealer hoping to unload it quickly.

And thanks for the "welcome". You're the first to offer that little nicety.

Bobby35

The members on this board should not have been allowed to be born.

I hope you all get anal worms.

ta-ta!