prashants17

The new JD power top ten name plate dependability ranking are out, and Acura is on number 10 behind Chevy,Buick,Toyota,Infinity,Lexus and even Honda??, many have said that for the value TL gives, the poor leather, the ratlles and the few transmission problems TL has had, are acceptable, well they are not, value does not mean you get tires dying out at 25K, paint chipping off within 2 mths, Rattles un ending, no question TL is a good car but it needs to address these issues before they haul its reputation for ever, by the way BMW,Merc,Audi are not in top 10.
the list is

Top Ten Nameplates

Lexus 139 PP100
Porsche 149 PP100
Lincoln 151 PP100
Buick 163 PP100
Cadillac 175 PP100
Infiniti 178 PP100
Toyota 194 PP100
Mercury 195 PP100
Honda 201 PP100
Acura 203 PP100

link- http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....Home&pos=Edit1

Brettg

Well, thats for all the car those companies make...

And really, the difference between 140 problms per 100 lexi
and 200 problems per 100 acura's is slight in my book.

Who would have thought the typical lexus had 1.4 initial problems.

And what sort of problems are they?
A rattle is different from a transmission failure, and a paint chip
is different from a check engine light or high oil use.

My 2003 Passat GLX cost about the same price as the TL, and
had things like the fuel pump wear out (and kill the car) at 27,000 miles,
had corroded electrical connections inside the car that caused transmission alarms, had constant check engine lights, sensors fail, etc.

Thats a lot different than tires that wear out and rattles.

While the turanza's are not good stock tires, its typical for high performance
tires to wear out quickly because the are made of soft rubber for good grip.

There does not SEEM to be a big difference between 1.4 and 2 problems
average per car in my book, just what is a .4 problem anyway.

Now if lexi had an average of .5 problems per car, that would be something,
only one problem per every other car....

Brett

TLTrance

I'd like to say that the types of drivers that acclimate towards a certain type of car is more or less willing to report a problem. That's got to factor in the mix. Also, 1.39 problems reported per car versus 2.03 problems per car doesn't really strike me as a glaring issue. What they should do is categorize it into mild, medium, serious problems per 100 cars.

batting_cleanup

I was at Costco about a week ago and they had a Lexus IS on display to drum up business for their car buying service. Right next to the sticker on the car was a notice about the tires on the car and it stated owners would probably not get 20,000 miles out of the tires. I had never seen that warning on a car and wish I had looked at what brand and model tires were on the car so I could tell everyone what they were. From the Lexus web site:

http://www.lexus.com/models/is/sport...ons.html#disc3

md mdx

A sticker on the NSX's states that their tires may need to be replaced in 10,000 miles.

crazymjb

Porche has quite a few reliability issues. The TLs leather isn't too horrible(at least with the 05 stitching) and as far as I know the 05s have not tranny issues. Yes they could work on rattles and paint, but those are hardly major problems(rattles are somewhat isolated, most people probably found this forum when either looking for info on the car or to ask problems).

caha14

I had an '02 TL-S - 4th production year for the 2nd gen - and it had plenty of rattles, sub-par leather, and a driveline vibration that the dealer couldn't figure out and ACS didn't give a damn about. The same goes for '02 and '03 TL loaners that I got to drive - rattles, squeaky seats, squeaky seatbelt buckles.

Acura needs to get its act together. And forget about Lexus, Infiniti, etc.; just compare Acura now to Acura 10 years ago. Quality has gone to hell relative to the standard they themselves set. And I'm a long-time Honda fan, by the way, and all my Hondas have been superior to my TL by a long shot.

mxtt

There is a reason why Acura did poorly. Just think about all the problems (no matter how minor they are) that were mentioned here.

castre

Technically, the chart shows that the two high-end Japanese car companies did better than their parent companies. For example, if you look at Lexus and Infiniti, they did better than Toyota and Nissan respectively. That is the way it is suppose to be if you are “paying more.” In the other hand, Honda did better than their premium brand Acura. That is just ridiculous, because there is no point in buying Acura. You are obviously not buying quality but instead you are buying better looking Honda.

MrSparky

JD Power Surveys are basically a joke. They are usually taken in the first 90 days of ownership, and they do not weight the severity of the problem encountered (a rattle vs your transmission). Consumer Reports reliability data is a better indicator of reliability since it covers several model years and weights problems by severity. Lincoln always does well on JD Power, yet Consumer Reports all but Town Cars to be of poor quality. I can attest to CU's data with my own experience with Lincolns.

crazymjb

Castre, I would have to disagree(do you have an acura, as you say it is pointless). MOST problems in the TL are with the added tech and more pretty stuff shoved in over their honda counterparts. The only actual widespread problem WAS the buttprints and the currently diminishing rattle problem. JD power reviews are crap, my grandparents go theirs for their saab tuesday, they have had it about 2 months(I was there doing yard work when they opened their mail, and they didn't even take it).

In addition to the better looks you have an overall better machine, not neccesarily more refined.

caha14

You are correct to some extent. The JD Power Initial Quality survey does span the first 90 days of ownership, I believe (I'm not sure if the period is a bit longer). The most recent one of that kind actually had Porsche way lower than it is in the post here. In fact, I think it was below average.

The numbers above are from the dependability study, which looks at 3-year old cars with a summary of issues over the course of that period. I don't know all the details of the survey, but I do know that this year they looked at 2002 models. It will be interesting to see in 2 years how 2004 Acuras fare relative to '02 and '03 models.

Here's the full article from WSJ, which I posted elsewhere some time ago:

Ranking the Most-Reliable Cars
Lexus Tops J.D. Power Survey,
But Mercedes, VW Struggle;
A Strong Showing for GM

By JOSEPH B. WHITE
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
June 29, 2005 10:31 p.m.; Page D1

Auto makers are getting better at building cars that last, according to the latest J.D. Power & Associates survey of vehicle reliability. That includes some major Detroit brands that have struggled to overcome consumer concerns rooted in past quality problems.

As it has for 11 years, Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus brand ranked first in J.D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Study, which surveys consumers about problems with three-year-old vehicles. The top-ranked car in the survey was the 2002 Lexus LS 430, Lexus's top-of-the-line sedan.

The survey's results also signal that certain high-profile European brands -- Volkswagen AG's Volkswagen and Audi brands, Bayerische Motoren Werke's Mini brand, Ford Motor Co.'s stable of European luxury brands and DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz brand -- are at risk. All those brands ranked below average.

Despite Lexus's continued domination of the dependability study, there were some meaningful consolation prizes, particularly for General Motors Corp., Ford, DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group, Porsche AG, and South Korean auto maker Hyundai Motor Corp. GM, which has struggled in recent years to persuade consumers that it has overcome the quality shortcomings of the 1980s, captured the top ranking in eight of 19 market segments defined by J.D. Power, including best "entry midsize car" for the 2002 Chevrolet Malibu, best full-size pickup for the Cadillac Escalade EXT and best large SUV for the GMC Yukon. That's the most segment wins ever for GM, J.D. Power said.

Mercedes improved its score by 13% in the survey, and a company spokeswoman said the improvement indicates that "we have turned the corner on the quality situation." The top three problems cited by consumers, she said, were brake dust on the wheels, uneven tire wear and inadequate cup holders -- a perennial American complaint about German cars.

Consumers in general reported less trouble with 2002 models than they had in previous surveys: The overall industry average for problems per 100 vehicles declined by 12%, to 237 problems per 100 from 269 problems per 100 for 2001 models. Of vehicle models surveyed, 84% showed year-to-year improvements in reliability after three years, J.D. Power said in a statement.

In addition, the spread between the top-ranked brand (Lexus with 139 problems per 100 for 2002 models,) and the worst brand, (Kia with 397 problems per 100 models) narrowed by nearly 17% when compared with the 2004 edition of the study.

J.D. Power, a market-research and consulting unit of McGraw-Hill Cos., publishes several closely followed surveys compiling data from consumer surveys about vehicle quality and desirability. The Vehicle Dependability Study is particularly meaningful for auto makers and consumers, because reliability over the long term has a powerful influence on whether customers buy another vehicle from the same brand, says Chance Parker, the company's executive director of product and research analysis.

Vehicles with strong reputations for durability also tend to hold more value as they age, giving their owners more to bargain with at trade-in time. J.D. Power estimates that vehicles from brands that perform above the average on the Vehicle Dependability Study are worth about $1,000 more after three years on the road than vehicles from brands that score below the industry average.

The challenge for brands that haven't been as consistently strong as Lexus is that consumers tend to lock in their views about whether a vehicle brand can be trusted or not.

This is a particularly urgent problem for the old-line Detroit brands such as Chevrolet, Ford or Chrysler, which all suffered damage during the 1980s and 1990s from products that didn't measure up to the reliability standards set by the best of the Japanese manufacturers, Toyota and Honda Motor Co.

That quality deficit -- and executives at Detroit's Big Three say it is now more a matter of perception than reality -- is one reason why GM, Ford and Chrysler have to offer bigger discounts on many models than Toyota or Honda.

Mark LaNeve, head of GM's North American sales and marketing, said GM's string of good performances in J.D. Power quality and dependability studies should help the image of its brands. GM is putting a greater emphasis on quality in advertising for its Buick brand, and also in ads promoting its "Employee Discount for Everyone" sales promotion, which ends July 5. GM also is emphasizing that it has 20 models with highway fuel economy of 30 miles per gallon or better. "Those are the two perception gaps we have: the quality gap and the misperception on fuel economy," Mr. LaNeve said.

There was some good news for Ford: Its models led in five segments, including best "mid luxury car" for the 2002 Lincoln Town Car. That was a record for the auto maker. Toyota models led in four segments, including best entry luxury SUV for the Lexus RX 300.

"We know that there has historically been a gap between actual improvement and customer perceptions," said Deborah Coleman, Ford's vice president for global quality. "We can close that gap by accelerating the rate of improvement and more importantly ... that we consistently do well over time."

J.D. Power's Mr. Parker says Toyota and Honda haven't lost their edge. "One of the primary differences still between Toyota and Honda, and GM and Ford, is consistency," he says. Most vehicles from the two Japanese auto makers tend to do well on reliability measures, he says, where GM and Ford still have some vehicles that do poorly.

DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler brand improved its 2002-model scores by 50 points, or nearly 18%, to rank above average. Last year, Chrysler's 2001 models got below average dependability scores. DaimlerChrysler's 2002 Dodge and Jeep models still rank below average.

"As this is a glimpse at vehicles from the 2002 model year -- when many of our quality initiatives were just starting to be fully implemented -- we look forward to even greater strides in the study as the sampling moves further into our product line," Chrysler said in a statement.

Porsche, the German luxury sports-car maker, improved its ranking to No. 2 from No. 10 in the 2004 survey, as owners of 2002 Porsches reported 38% fewer problems per 100 vehicles.

Hyundai, which has undertaken a wide-ranging quality-improvement crusade in recent years, had the biggest reduction in problems reported by owners of its three-year-old models compared to a year ago. But Hyundai's overall score still ranked below the industry average of 237 problems per 100.


The Results

Vehicle dependability based on questionnaires sent to owners of 2002 model-year vehicles. The list ranks vehicle brands by the problems their owners reported per 100 vehicles.
Brand Problems per 100 vehicles
Lexus 139
Porsche 149
Lincoln 151
Buick 163
Cadillac 175
Infiniti 178
Toyota 194
Mercury 195
Honda 201
Acura 203
BMW 225
Ford 231
Chevrolet 232
Chrysler 235
INDUSTRY AVERAGE … 237
Saturn 240
Oldsmobile 242
GMC 245
Pontiac 245
Mazda 252
Hyundai 260
Subaru 260
Volvo 266
Jaguar 268
Dodge 273
Nissan 275
Mitsubishi 278
Mercedes-Benz 283
Saab 286
Jeep 289
Suzuki 292
Audi 312
Daewoo 318
Isuzu 331
Volkswagen 335
Mini 383
Land Rover 395
Kia 397

Source: J.D. Power and Associates
Top Three Vehicles per Segment

Compact Car*
Highest Ranked: Chevrolet Prizm
Toyota ECHO
Toyota Prius

Entry Midsize Car
Highest Ranked: Chevrolet Malibu
Oldsmobile Alero
Hyundai Sonata

Premium Midsize Car
Highest Ranked: Buick Century
Buick Regal
Toyota Avalon

Full-Size Car
Highest Ranked: Buick LeSabre
Ford Crown Victoria
Mercury Grand Marquis

Entry Luxury Car
Highest Ranked: Ford Thunderbird
Lincoln LS
Infiniti I35

Mid Luxury Car
Highest Ranked: Lincoln Town Car
Lexus GS 300/GS 430
Buick Park Avenue

Premium Luxury Car**
Highest Ranked: Lexus LS 430
Lexus SC 430
Cadillac Eldorado

Sporty Car
Highest Ranked: Mazda Miata
Chevrolet Camaro
Toyota MR2 Spyder

Premium Sports Car
Highest Ranked: Porsche 911
Honda S2000
Chevrolet Corvette

Midsize Van
Highest Ranked: Ford Windstar
Toyota Sienna
Mercury Villager

Full-Size Van
Highest Ranked: Ford E-Series
Chevrolet Express
Dodge Ram Van

Midsize Pickup
Highest Ranked: Chevrolet S-10 Pickup
GMC Sonoma
Toyota Tacoma

Light-Duty Full-Size Pickup
Highest Ranked: Cadillac Escalade EXT
Ford F-150 LD
Toyota Tundra

Heavy-Duty Full-Size Pickup
Highest Ranked: Chevrolet Silverado HD
Ford F-250/F-350 Super Duty
GMC Sierra HD

Entry SUV
Highest Ranked: Honda CR-V
Toyota RAV4
Jeep Liberty

Midsize SUV
Highest Ranked: Toyota 4Runner
Toyota Highlander
Ford Explorer (Total)

Full-Size SUV
Highest Ranked: GMC Yukon/Yukon XL
Ford Expedition (tie)
Toyota Sequoia (tie)

Entry Luxury SUV
Highest Ranked: Lexus RX 300
Acura MDX
Infiniti QX4

Premium Luxury SUV
Highest Ranked: Lexus LX 470
Cadillac Escalade (tie)
Lincoln Navigator (tie)

* Includes the Entry Compact Car and Premium Compact Car segments.

** Includes the Premium Luxury Car and Luxury Sport Car segments.

castre

Yes, I HAD a 04 TL, and you claim that most problems associate with TL is because of the additional amenities, and that is what separates Acura from Honda… I only agree 50% of your comment. But don’t you think Lexus and Infiniti have additional options that separate them from their parent companies? They do offer more options AND TEND TO HAVE LESS PROBLEMS.

Scott in Houston

I would love to get more than 5K-6K out of my rear tires! 10K is awesome.

25K on a set of tires is not bad at all... that being said the Turanza's do suck balls. They're the worst tires I've had on any car in the rain. On dry, they're just acceptable.

crazymjb

The Lemon TLs are definatly an anomoly. After all, how many have been sold?