slapmesilly

From this board I know the computer holds rpm for a short time when the clutch is engaged. However, my transmission also holds RPM at what I think are two distinct speeds.

This is what happens. I accelerate in third gear to 5000rpm, engage clutch and put tranny in neutral, let out clutch. I am basically coasting at this point. What happens is the that the rpm is held at about 5000 for a breif time. As engine speed decreases there is a noticable delay of probably 1-2 seconds where the computer holds rpm at about 3200 rpm. Speed falls again and there is ANOTHER hold for 1-2 seconds at around 2100 rpm. Then the engine goes down to idle.

I have not tried 4th gear because of traffic conditions, 2nd gear appears to be the same as third.

I was driveing for about 30 minutes so the engine should be up to temperature. VSA was engaged (shouldn't matter at all), the car is a 2006 with about 600 miles, I never had the engine over 4000rpm for the first 550 miles, from 550 miles to 600 miles max rpm has been 6000.

Is this normal?

Any thoughts?

TL Dude

Mine does this as well and I beleive it is normal. I think the computer is trying to assist in the shift by holding RPMs while the clutch is disengaged, perhaps to make a smoother shift? I will be curious to hear a more technical response from others...

I think this has more of an impact for people that are new to manual transmissions. Once you get your shift patterens and timing down you will notice this less and less.

Just my

WdnUlik2no

The only problem I have with 3rd gear is that occasionaly after I shift to it, the gear shift will just pop back into neutral for no reason.

DeadLock

that doesnt sound good.

and about the holding RPMs, I coast all the time, and mine just drops to 1k and stays there

WdnUlik2no

yeah it doesn't sound good. I think there was another thread on this. some said is ocassionaly would happened other said that it could be my snychros. I asked Acura service department about it, and they said they never heard of that before. (eventhough I see many people online having the same problems). He told me that maybe I am not pushing the clutch in all the way before I shift. That would make sense, but if thats the case then I would have the same problem on all the other gears as well. I still make very sure the clutch is too the floor before I go into 3rd. When I think about it it doesn't happen, but as soon as don't, it pops out. I'm going to call every Acura dealer in Georgia (and the US if nessecary) until I get someone that has run into this problem before.

WdnUlik2no

update: Finally got an answer. I just called Ed Voyles. The guy in service told me that 3rd is the tallest gear and I have to make sure that it is all the way up in there before I release the clutch otherwise the snychro will kick it back out. He said that Acura has investigated this concern for other people having the same problem and determined it was not a tranny problem, just the shifting technique. He also said the TSX's have a similar problem as well.

BTW didn't mean to , i'm just glad I got an answer.

yohan81718

mine does this too.. and i think the computer is engaging the corresponding rpm for your speed in your next gear... when it's hanging at that rpm, trying putting into next gear without any gas... you will see what i mean

slapmesilly

Ok, this does not sound good so far.

I belive my car has also jumped out of 3rd a couple of times. It happened immediately after I let go of the shifter so I thought it was just a big screw up on my part by not getting it all the way into gear. I'll do a search on this.

I think I may contact my dealer today. I expect resistance from them.

slapmesilly

yohan81718, I thought of that also and I hope, in some ways, that is the case. I am skeptical though because there shouldn't be two distinct pauses. Does the computer think that if you don't shift to the next gear quick enough then it determines you are going to skip shift and pauses again? The actual time that it it takes you to shift doesn't change if you go from 3rd to 4th or 3rd to 5th so there would be no reason to pause twice.

And if the computer is intentionally trying to match rpm's then I think that sucks. I can do that by myself after experience with the car. Right now I am still learning and I have occasionally over-reved the next gears shift, something I rarely if ever do in my GSR.

DeadLock, can you go to neutral in 3rd at about 5000rpm and watch the tach for me? I think yours is operating the way it shoud so I would appreciate the feed back.

rbf351

my 2000 Si used to have this problem, it was because honda forgot to fill the tranny fluid up. i would check that, you can also have bad syncros

Opti

Yes, that RPM thing is normal, computer is trying to rev-match for a higher gear.

As for the stick popping out of third, that will be fixed by changing the tranny fluid out with GM Synchromesh Friction Modified Manual Transmission Fluid. (Important that it says FRICTION MODIFIED). Best thing I ever did to my TL 6spd.

I'd wait until about 5,000 miles to swap it (break-in)

Lots of posts here about it. Here's mine. See the link in that post too.

https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/couple-quick-question-installing-system-126981/

your_mom

Compared to my previous RSX Type-S, the TL definately holds on to revs. I have noticed that during heavy accelleration after lifting my foot completely off the gas and then pushing the clutch in the TL will add a few revs (like one or two, not 1,000 or 2,000) before hanging on and then dropping. I suspect the drive by wire throttle is at fault. As an aside, back in the stone age and before fuel injection, this rev holding behavior was apparently normal on all cars.

WdnUlik2no

So you did it yourself? Was it hard to do?

Brettg

What, are we all new here?
The GM stuff has been talked about for the last year at least, and yes it fixes all the manual transmission querks.
At least it did in my car.

You drain the original stuff out, and fill with the GM stuff, its just like changing the engine oil.

Brett

6MTrules

Once the car is warmed up and you go past about 3K before your next shift, the computer will rev match EXACTLY for you, for the next gear. That is, you do not need to give ANY gas to engage the next gear. Just let out the clutch, no gas, smooth as silk. This happens on every up shift, although 1st to 2nd is a bit trickier, because I think the speeds are lower.

Now, this is not such a good thing in all cases, as it does not drop fast enough for me. I have to pause for not quite a second, for the revs to drop before engaging the clutch. I can't shift/clutch as fast as I would like. I usually shift at about 3.5K (I know - wimp). Wondering if others have same experience say in the 4-5K range for shift points.

There were a few posts in another thread about this, but I was lazy to go find them.

SouthernBoy

It's not the transmission (manual transmissions have nothing to do with the engine other than acting as an interface for power delivery to the drive wheels). It's not the synchronizers (this is really stretching it). It's not the ECU holding RPMs between shifts as an aid to shifting.

What it is, is the ECU forcing the engine to maintain RPMs at the level of the shift for a moment to help burn off any potential pooling or puddling of fuel in the intake manifold or plenum. By keeping the throttle valve open a little to keep the R's up, a heavy dose of fresh air gets drawn into the manifold and allows the engine to mix and burn off residual fuel.
This helps to keep the nut cases at the EPA happy.

I don't have this problem with my '04 probably because I do not shift quickly to the next higher gear unless the need presents itself. Also, you'll notice that under hard acceleration and much faster shifting, this "feature" does not occur.

slapmesilly

6MTrules is correct, the computer rev matches for the next gear, no clutch required. And it is slow to drop speed, I am always waiting and not able to shift as fast as I want to.

I did not realize this during my test drive. If I had I would have gone with an auto. I really don't like this at all.

Nandito28

I feel like when im "up" shifting its stays just enugh for me to shift...but when im down shifting it doesn't stay long enough...maybe its just me

SouthernBoy

The ECU is not doing this because it is wanting to be "shift-friendly". Think about it. The ECU has no idea of your instant driving situation. It doesn't know anything at all about your needs at that particular time.

Actually, it's the air by-pass valve that is allowing fresh air to be drawn into the intake manifold to burn off any residual fuel.

Try this. In second gear, accelerate aggressively up to say 4500 to 5000 RPM.. not full throttle. Then depress the clutch and wait. You'll probably see the RPMs hang for a moment. Now do the same thing, only don't accelerate aggressively.. just accelerate in a normal manner and see what happens. The RPMs will drop more readily.

SouthernBoy

You shouldn't be letting the engine (ECU) hold the RPMs for downshifts. Remember, the engine will be turning at a higher RPM for the next lower gear. You should blip the throttle as you pass through the neutral gate while at the same time releasing the clutch some to spin up the gears for a rev-matched downshift.

Nandito28

Good thing I dont down shift that often...That seems kinda hard to do...basicaly press the throtle just enough to match the range the lower gear would be and than shift and hopes its in the same area of rpm....seems like alot of trouble ...but it does make sense...

SouthernBoy

Well, it's not "pressing" the throttle.. it's blipping it. Basically what you what to do is catch the RPMs as they are falling from the "blip" but are higher than the "pre-downshift" gear you're downshifting out of.

Say you're traveling along in 4th gear at 2000 RPM and up ahead is a red light. So you decide to downshift to 3rd. What most people do is this. Take their foot off of the throttle, move the shifter into 3rd gear, then slowly start releasing the clutch until full engagement. THIS IS VERY BAD.. DO NOT DO THIS.

What you want to do is as you are shifting to 3rd gear and are passing through the neutral gate, blitp the throttle so that the RPMs will be higher than what they would be once you get into 3rd gear while at the same time releasing the clutch some to spin up the gears. Then when you get into 3rd gear, the RPMs would have come down to a point where they will match the lower gear (say in this case, 2500 RPM). The clutch comes out for the final time and you have a perfect rev-matched downshift.

SouthernBoy

Here, go to this link and read post #17. You might find it interesting.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...t=downshifting

Nandito28

Let me know if I'm wrong...basically its like launching from a complete stop....but not really since your moving....reving to meet the rpm range in order to make the smooth transaction...hope you get what i'm saying....

Papaman677

I have this problem too. When I shift into 3rd i have to push it in all the way, it almost "clicks" in. This doens't happen all the time. It actually happens when I'm not pushing the car hard. I've grinded my gears and the shifter has popped out at times. I brough it to acura and they had to run a few "tests" but found nothing wrong with it. I'm at 21K right now and I'm due for an A1 service. I'm going to have them check it again......along with a subwoofer rattle I've developed.

slapmesilly

SouthernBoy,

I think you (and maybe others) are misunderstanding the original post. I understand the air-bypass valve and the ECU holding rpm when you initially clutch. This is NOT what bothers me.

What bothers me is after the initial hold to burn off fuel, rpms drop slowly, then the ECU holds rpm AGAIN at the correct revs for the next higher gear. The slow rate at which the engines speed decreases means that I have to wait to shift. Very, very annoying and to me it ruins the sporty nature of the 6SM.

My 97 Integra acts like a car should. Push in the clutch, RPM falls fast, blip the throttle, shift. 120,000 miles and I still have the original clutch. I wish the TL was like this.

slapmesilly

SouthernBoy

I think you are misunderstanding my complaint and the intent of the original post. I understand about the air bypass valve holding rpm at the original time of clutching.

My issue is with the ECU holding rpm AGAIN at the correct speed to engage the next higher gear. I can blip the throttle and get the correct rpm myself, I don't need the ECU to do it for me.

Additionally, the rate at which the engine RPM decreases seems to be very slow, to me at least. This combined with the second rpm hold means that I am always waiting to shift.

Very, very annoying and ruins the performance nature of the 6MT in my opinion.

SouthernBoy

I'm not quite sure I fully understand your statements here. Could you elaborate a little more by chance?

SouthernBoy

If a tranny "pops" out of gear, the most common cause is a misalignment (setting) of the shifter assembly. In other words, the shifter is not forcing the gears to be fully meshed and is not "locking" them into that position.

SouthernBoy

Actually, I know exactly what you are talking about.. more than you realize. This is the reason I traded my 2000 SVT Contour in November 2001 for a 2002 Altima SE. I hated to let that SVT Contour go because it was bar none, the best handling car I've ever owned. If you've never had the pleasure of driving one, its a shame. Mine was the 379th one built for the 2000 model year out of 2150 total for that year (Ford sent SVT buyers certificates giving this information along with the build dates).

With the SVT, the hanging throttle problem could get pretty severe. It was not uncommon for RPMs to rise as much as 1000 RPM over the engine at the time of the shift.. and stay there for 6 - 10 seconds. Not conducive to good shifts or prolonged clutch life. What we SVT'ers would do is insert a plug into the air bypass rubber tube with a 7/32" hole drilled in the center. This would work for a few days until the ECU decided enough was enough and at idle the engine would run up to around 1600 RPM.

What happens is this (particularly noticable under more aggressive driving conditions). You begin your shift by removing throttle pressure. The throttle plate closes and some of the raw fuel from the last few sprays of fuel from the injectors puddles outside of the intake valves in the intake runners due to the sudden extreme vaccum from the closing throttle plate. The air bypass then opens to allow fresh air to enter the intake manifold and both mix with and force the raw puddled fuel to be drawn into the cylinders. Since air is being allowed to enter the manifold (and not from the throttle), the injectors are ordered to deliver some fuel to keep the mixture at the proper levels in the cylinders. Now you have a "racing" engine (one which tends to hang or even increase RPMs). The RPMs do come down, but they do so slowly to continue the burn off. The tendency of the engine to pause a an RPM level a bit lower is probably due to the ECU correcting the fuel delivery to match the air being drawn into the manifold.

My Altmia SE (V6 was the only engine available for the SE) never did this and neither does my '04 TL. If your problem is pronounced, I'd take the car in to Acura and see if there is something that can be done to correct it.

BTW, it is quite possible that the RPMs falling to a point where they should be for the shift to the next gear is deliberate and controlled by the ECU. This would not at all be difficult software with a drive-by-wire system. The only problem with this is two-fold: 1) The ECU does not know which gear you are chosing - suppose you do a 2nd-to-4th shift. 2) The ECU does not know how fast you are going to shift at any particular time. So I would say that this would be more along the lines of wanting to make sure that it burns off any residual fuel in order to maintain ultra-clean emissions.

But seriously, if your TL is hanging badly between shifts, this is not a good thing. The two manual TLs I've driven did not do this at all (one of them I own).

6MTrules

OK, gang, take this for what it's worth. My

(Speeds and RPMs are best as I can remember...)

I'm on my favorite high-way on ramp, where I like to take it up to 70mph in 3rd, and then I usually go directly into 6th for cruising. This time I decided to go through all the gears, once on the highway. (All through this, I am holding at about 70 mph.)

a) I'm in 3rd/5.5K/70mph
b) Clutch in, RPM drops to 4K, exact rev match to engage 4th, and engage, no gas, smooth as silk.
c) Hold this for a few seconds.
d) Clutch in, RPM drops to 3K, exact rev match to engage 5th, and engage, no gas, smooth as silk.
e) Hold this for a few seconds.
f) Clutch in, RPM drops to 2.5K, exact rev match to engage 6th, and engage, no gas, smooth as silk.

I was not surprised at all based on my previous experience with "regular" upshifting and rev matching. This has convinced me that the computer is absolutely controlling the rev matching for the next *assumed* gear.

I think also related is the thread on skip shifting - that Acura says that skip shifters are "lazy"... I think they are worried that if you skip shift (at least up shifting), you will miss these rev matches (into the next *assumed* gear), and therefore cause clutch wear (that is, if you really don't know how to skip shift properly).

Also - I have 2005, and others have stated they don't experience this. Possible different computer program for different years?

vector7777

I have a 2006 6MT and even with my limited experience with stick shifts...I would have to agree with 6MTrules...the ECU is matching revs for you on upshifts. It seems to only hold for a second or so and it doesn't do this at all in the lowest gears.

SouthernBoy

I just tried what you have described here in your post and mine does the same thing, so it DOES actually appear that the ECU does this deliberately as an aid to smoother shifting.. it just doesn't do it necessarily quick enough. This is easy for the software to do this. It would just have to know the gear ratios and the RPM at which your engine is turning (no problem there with either). The only thing is it would assume a normal upshift progression, not jumps to higher gears such as a 2nd to 4th or a 3rd to 5th or 6th shift. Then the driver would need to do the proper waiting for the RPMs to drop for the shift.

But anyway, your test is valid.

pettydw

Holding on to the revs is strictly an EPA thing, though it can improve shift smoothness if done right (TL is pretty good in this respect). Drive a domestic manual and you will find they hold the revs for 1-2 seconds at the rpm you pushed the clutch in, not matching the next shift at all. At least Honda drops the revs off a bit. My '99 Civic Si had this feature to some extent also. My '93 Civic EX did not and was more difficult to shift smoothly, especially with the AC cycling on and off (engine slowed at different rates depending on AC drag or not).

jennarocks

I don't give individual props very often on this forum... but Southernboy is probably one of the most knowledgable people when it comes to the manual tranny. He's got an excellent post on how to shift properly. downshifting especially.

Listen to him.

SouthernBoy

Wow, thanks so much for the flowers. This is, indeed, a nice compliment.

SIK TL

Mine had a similar issue. took it to the dealer and they replace the shift linkage cables

6MTrules

I agree with jennarocks about props for SouthernBoy. And his successfully recreating my 70mph "test" just about made my day! (And proved that I wasn't crazy!)

bTwix

Definitely, props for SouthernBoy. Thanks for the info on how to double clutch & downshift properly and how to properly shift into first. Took a little getting used to but now I can blip and let the clutch out just a tiny bit to spin up the gears as I'm moving through the neutral gate as one quick and smooth motion. Took about of month of practacing every day wherever I was driving but I finally got it down. It's so satisfying when you can make the car do exactly what you want without any lame downshift jerking. Makes passing totally awesome! Still working on smoothing out the heel toe double clutch downshift coming into the turns though.

SouthernBoy

Congratulations! You'll know when you've gotten there when your passengers don't even realize that you just downshifted. This is the easiest manual tranny car I've ever owned to downshift as I do. So smooth.. like butter and the transition from the higher to the lower chosen gear is seemless.

I have never been able to master heel-and-toeing probably because of two things: 1) every time I've tried it in the past, I tended to over-rev the engine which does not make for good shifts and; 2) I can downshift pretty quickly using my method. Still I admire those who can do this well.

Anyway, congrats on your rev-matched downshifting.. your clutch will really love you for this.