Tripnbeats

yup monday morning its scheduled

SouthernBoy

Yeah, quarts are litres are maybe 1.5 ounces off or thereabouts.

How come so much drained out? was the car level or was it just an overfill condition?

08TYPE_S

My 6MT does exhibit this problem once in a while and I am not sure that I want a tech to be taking my transmission apart. It might do more harm than good. I guess I will wait and see how well it work for others.

08TYPE_S

I have an '08 and it has about 4500 miles. Like you are saying, I am giving my left foot extra clutch time when shifting into 3rd gear and really pay close attention to making sure that it is in 3rd before letting off the clutch. It kind of take the joy out of driving. I talked to the service manager at the Acura dealer a month ago about the problem and I was told that it is normal with all Acuras and Hondas and that I need to apply a little more force to the shifter to get it in there. To me, this is a pile of craps! Maybe they will have a change of heart after seeing this TSB.

SouthernBoy

No, it is not normal at all and yes, you were fed a load of crap. I can tell you that my '04 manual TL exhibits not one iota of any of these problems and I have over 53,000 miles on it as the original owner. Not one of these problems appears in any way, shape, or form in my transmission.

acuratech239

iTrader: (2)

I was curious to see what the responses would be to the bulletin once it was announced That said, I personally own an 07 TL-S 6 speed. I had the 3rd gear issue for the first 3,000 miles, and then after looking around on here, and calling tech line, I went ahead and put good ol GM syncromesh FM (as I had run on my Integras and Civic for years). Gotta love warranty! Haven't had the problem since, and I'm at about 17,500 miles.

That said, I probably will not ever end up replacing the 3rd gear set, as the bulletin calls for. Even I, as a technician for Acura, don't feel like ripping my car apart to get the trans out. Disconnect the column from the rack, drop the sub frame...It's not laziness, it's more in the area of the problem is gone, it hasn't happened once since. So do I really feel the need to remove my trans, then take that apart? Last time Acura sent me to school, one of the sections I did was the manual trans section, and I had to completely take apart, and rebuild, an old Legend 5 speed. It's not that hard, just not a walk in the park either. It went back together just fine, and shifted just fine...but it's still not a fun time, that's for sure.

This is just my I'm not saying anyone should or shouldn't have this done, I'm just giving my own personal account, and opinion, as many of the people in this thread have so far.

-- Kevin

trancemission

Im with you on this one Kevin.

Legend2TL

I'm also with you, the last time I had a MT apart for repair was for my Dad's old Toyota Corona (1975). A countershaft bearing cage came apart and lost reverse. It was RWD so it easier to drop than a FWD. I've done clutches in Honda's and Acura's but only took part of my Mom's Civic MT apart to look at a shift linkage bearing/bushing that I thought was binding (turned out to be the shift linkage).

My biggest concern is messing around with everything else that must come out to get to the gearbox and it all going back correctly again. And as you indicated not many tech's even work on manuals these days.

mbarb17

I'm not crazy about the idea of having them pull my transmission apart, but my thought process is if they make things worse they will have to fix it and/or replace the transmission with one that works properly. Right?

I've got an appointment for Monday to have them look at the car to try to replicate the problem so that they can do the TSB. I've had problems with it since about 1,500 miles (now have 25,000) and this past winter was bad so I am looking forward to an Acura backed fix. Hopefully I won't be disappointed.

sol_da_man

GMSMFM for me about 10K ago, NO PROBLEMS SINCE. i worked at a GM dealership at the time, so i got the hook-up.

raven37

I have 42,000 miles on my 6MT and I have been having this problem at about 13,000 miles onward. The service rep replaced the gear fluid and it cured the grinding for about 20K and now its back.

I took it in for the 5th time last week and my actual service adviser replicated the problem after the tech told me that I wasn't driving the car properly. He said that you really have to force the car into gear...which is nonsense to me. You shouldn't have to do weight training to drive an acura...

Anyways, the rep gives the car back to me. He told me that there is "something in the works" and that he'll only be able to take care of this as soon as its official. Although I am glad that something is on the way, I can honestly say I won't buy an Acura again considering that I've been driving with this problem for the life of the car. This is not the driving experience I expected.

I hope he's right and that they will issue either a TSB or recall on the TL. They won't accept any TSB for the TL other than one specifically for the TL.

SouthernBoy

It is unconscionable that a trained (?) mechanic would even think of telling you this. I don't know which is worse. Him not knowing any better (hard to imagine) or just telling you what he is supposed to tell you about these problems. I would rather the latter because if he is just ignorant, I sure as hell wouldn't want him working on my car, though in retrospect - one's as bad as the other.

jayrowe

So, I am confused about the opinions about flushing. Many people suggest doing the GMSMFM flush, but in other posts, people say to stear clear of any flush.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177880

Others say to make sure it is not a 'power flush'

I am thinking about putting in the GMSMFM, but don't want to eff things up.

wolfpackNC

This is only for the automatic transmission. The manual you just drain and fill.

evanj5

I had the TSB done to my 07 along with a new clutch and flywheel and I believe he mentioned something about the sleeves so I will let you guys know the outcome. I cross my fingers that the car is handed over to me better then ever.

Lets all pray that this TSB is the fix and we can all rest assured that we wont have to be selling our cars within the next year or even getting them lemoned.

raven37

Hi Evan, did Acura replace your clutch and flywheel as part of another TSB? Which TSB are you referring to? Thanks.

ek9hatch

As a Volvo tech, I'm with you on that one too. It's just not worth the effort and angst unless every other option (including synchromesh) has been tried and the car is undrivable. On that note, here's my on what everyone's been saying about the fluid change just being a bandaid, not a "true mechanical fix." What everyone is neglecting to consider is that the fluid is just as integral a mechanical part as the synchro, the gear, the shaft, and every other piece in the trans. Just because it's not metal doesn't make it any less mechanically important. Indeed, without it, it would not function properly, if at all. That being the case, fluid change is every bit as true a mechanical fix as changing the synchros; it's just the first step, not a bandaid. In the same vein, changing to a different type of fluid to compensate is no different than changing the bushing design and material on an upper engine mount (which Volvo has recently begun doing) to reduce rapid wear. It is not a cop-out to change the fluid type. Indeed, redesigned fluid is just as mechanical a repair as a redesigned syncrho.

In short: fluid is just as mechanically necessary as metal, so it doesn't make sense to argue that a fluid change is not a valid mechanical repair, especially if it works. Obviously since every car is different that first step may not always be enough. This TSB gives you an avenue to demand that the next step be taken at the dealer level.

Hope that helps clarify some of those questions and I don't just sound like a windbag...

RogueTL

I have followed this thread with interest, since my '05 TL suffers from "3rd gear issue", and in hopes of "sounding out" general TL community, as to what worked for members, and what was their experience with dealerships handling the "3rd gear TSB".

SouthernBoy is right in stating that it is "unconscionable" for a mechanic to say that (essentially) client does not know how to drive the car, and he should "force" the 3rd gear. Given the mechanical advantage transferred via linkage to the "forks" in transmission it translates into increased wear of the components and possibly direct damage.

If Acura believes the special "3rd gear shifting technique" to be the "fix", than the corporation should extend the warranty on the transmission - consider 75,000 miles. For example, Toyota has done so in response to some of their sludge prone engines.

If fluid change is the answer, than it should be officially sanctioned by the Acura. In short, using the fluids other than currently approved by Acura would not void the warranty.

Consider also, that if fluid is (the only) cause of the problem in shifting, than all gears should have such problems (generalization here) and, presumably, not just the 3rd gear.

While I would not doubt professionalism of techs involved in transmission work, I am troubled by what appears an apparent reluctance to participate in repairs. The repairs are not easy, but sometimes necessary. I would hope that Acura would not force technicians to perform jobs they have not had an opportunity to perform on new equipment.

I am reluctant to have anyone disassemble my transmission and associated components, but admittedly, I am just as reluctant to subject myself to several thousand dollars in repair bills, should transmission fail out of warranty (due to 3rd gear "abuse" and use of "wrong" fluid).

On the other hand, I would accept Acura's "fix" (shift with more force) if they would stand behind it, by extending warranty to 75 - 100k miles. Likewise, I would have no problem installing GMs synchromesh fluid if Acura did not void warranty for using it.

I am not holding my breath, but I am still hopeful for a positive resolution for all of us.

Excelon

I have an 08 TL type S with barely 5500 miles. I have had a prob with 3rd since I can remember. Some days are worse than others, but I have had all 3 symptoms. It will sometimes grind into gear which drives me insane. Sometimes it will not go into gear until I go back to nuetral and then try 3rd again. I have had it pop out only when I force it into gear, so Acura saying to use more force is BS. I can't believe they would think that some "notchiness" or "resistance" going into 3rd is normal. I was under the impression that a $40k car would function properly.

Fluids should not be a fix in this situation, and I'm certain it will not work in my case. It seems Acura/Honda has had this problem with quite a few models over the years with their 6 speed and have yet to fix it, that is very unsettling to me. Wish I would have had some of this info before I bought it, guess I didn't search hard enough.

I did hear from a friend that recently had his TL serviced at the dealer that another person with a Type S dropped their's off for the same reason... it was an 08 as well. It is what prompted me to search this issue out. I'm taking my TL in monday, we'll see what happens.

ezshift5

.......I drive one of those 6 speeds from a parallel universe and - while not quite unsettled yet - have been following these threads more than casually.............

I took particular interest viewing input from the two techs who shared their perception. Both lean toward the GMSFM fluid.................plus one gives a doctoral-level view of fluid as an integral part of the 'system' - - - weighted just as much as the mechanicals.......................great reading.

As a result of this sparkling type of interchange, I went to the Chevrolet dealer in Shingle Springs, laid $40 on the parts man and now have 3 quarts of the magic goo.

After reading more (I rarely do anything quickly), and continually re-assessing my 6M (only slight 3rd gear notchiness and only now and then)..........perhaps membership in the Friction Modified fraternity will evolve....................

Seriously, great info.........Ex, please keep the feedback channel open...............

best, ez....

ek9hatch

LOL, I don't know about doctoral level, but I'm glad you got something from it.

Excelon, why do you say that fluids "should not" be the fix? I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to understand the basis for that statement.

When I took my car in for this problem the first time the note on my bill read, "Customer states 3rd hard to engage - see Service News 01-07 (Replace MTF). Manual transmission fluid not properly lubricating synchros, replaced MTF as per SIB:01-07." Clearly Honda has been aware of the potential for this problem and the potential for resolving it with a simple fluid swap. What we as customers have to understand is that the dealer has to follow a set procedure on situations like this. Since a simple fluid swap has been shown to rectify the complaint in a large number of cases (as has been attested to in numerous posts here), they must do that first. If every mo-mo who thought his shifter felt funny got a new transmission, Acura Warranty would stop paying for it and the dealer would be up the proverbial creak. It would not be practical for Acura to make sweeping warranty changes either, especially given the high degree of labor involved in the second option. This new TSB is a pretty big deal in itself, so let's see how that plays itself out.

As to the question of whether, if the fluid were the only issue, it would affect all gears, that would not necessarily be the case. The above note seems to indicate that there is a design issue that affects the ability of the fluid to lubricate that particular synchro. The best analogy I can think of is an intake manifold: On many cars the air flow is not perfect; some runners end up directing more air than others, leading some cylinders to run leaner than others, which is why it's common for certain cars to throw a specific cylinder over the others. Since we're talking about a layer of fluid that, when in operation, is measured in fractions of a millimeter and moves at hurricane speed, simply changing the dynamics of that fluid can have the effect of compensating for the design issue. Does that make sense?

RogueTL

Perhaps the most important point brought up by ek9hatch is in the last two sentences of his post, notably:

" ...Since we're talking about a layer of fluid that, when in operation, is measured in fractions of a millimeter and moves at hurricane speed, simply changing the dynamics of that fluid can have the effect of compensating for the design issue .."

Acura has been aware of the problems with design of the 3rd gear assembly for years, yet they continue to sell, nearly $40,000 ('08 Type -S), cars without corrective steps. Posts in this thread by '08 owners are a good example of on going problem.

For many people the fluid change (to the NEW improved HONDA lubricant) did not work. The new transmission fluid did not work even when it was pre-installed on brand new '08 vehicles. (see above)

When suggesting GM fluid to compensate for bad design, you need to provide some feedback as to the length of time said fluid will continue to compensate for mechanical defects in manufacture/design.

The proverbial $5000 question (cost of transmission replacement?) is whether Acura will sanction this fluid change, and not void the warranty, should failure occur.

People who spend significant amount of money on "luxury performance car", and order a manual transmission, are usually enthusiasts; they are not likely to complain unless there is genuine reason to sound alarm about defects which are unacceptable at any price.

As a side note: I hope the defects in intake manifold described above were repaired under warranty; engine failures due to poor design are responsibility of the manufacturer. Right ?

It is indeed illuminating to see comments posted by consumers with defective products, and individuals entrusted to repair them.

evanj5

picking my car up in 30 minutes, they said that is was test driven and everything is good.

Havent had my car in a week so I am glad to get it back, just have butterflies in my stomach about what the possible outcome of all of this is going to be.

I will give and an update around 9 pm.

vector7777

Let us know...I'm scheduled for 9am tomorrow

ezshift5

Right! Feedback appreciated.

best, ez....

Tablor

1. Does your 3rd gear issue mirror that of the original topic linked above? (If not what is different)
Sorry, I didn't read the original, but when going into 3rd it feels like I've hit something and I'll have to continue to press until fully engaged. I'd describe it as a notch. It only 'pops' out of gear when I stop at the notch and try and release the clutch. I don't know that I've ever gotten the clutch all the way out with the shifter against the notch, I doubt it.

2. If the car was new when did the 3rd gear issue start?
Probably less than 1k miles after new. It is intermittent and I haven't noticed any trend that makes it more likely to happen. I have an '06 TL 6sp with 44k miles now.

3RD Gear Solutions:
1. Have you updated to the revised Acura MTF? (Did it change anything)
Yes, tried that through the dealer several times. I haven't seen anyone else say this, but it helps for me. I experience no problems for about a month (not that I find that acceptable, I'm just saying that it seems to fix the problem for a minute.)

2. Have you brought your car into an Acura Dealer for inspection (What was the outcome?)
Many times. I believe I have 16 documented dealer trips. Part of the problem is that I have moved twice causing me to have been to 4 dealers each starting from the beginning to diagnose the same thing. They haven't been helpful or familiar with what seems to be a common problem. Not one service manager has claimed to have heard of this. I've been for a drive with two regional service managers and they too have been clueless.

3. Have you had the 3rd gear set replaced and if so did it resolve the issue?
Yes, I've had 3rd gear parts replaced in my original tranny.
No, it resolved nothing. In fact when I arrived to pick up the car after they had it for 6 weeks (supposedly the parts were on back order), it had the same problem before I even made it out of the parking lot. I stopped, backed up, grabbed the keys to the loaner car, got back in the loaner car and drove off while calling the service manager.

They replaced my transmission with a factory new tranny that to my shock - has the same problem. (Go figure!)

4. Did you try or switch to MTF like GM/Penzoil Syncromesh FM or Non FM? What was the result?
I didn't try it. I believe everyone that it works and had I thought I would have had this much trouble I would have done that from the beginning. However, I feel like Acura should be held responsible for my problems. I have and am currently dealing with Acura corporate relations. They refused to extend my warranty at my request and have only offered my 90k mile service for free. I'd personally like to sue Acura for the cost of my car and my trouble in dealing with it. Too bad I went the engineering route and not the legal one...

Someone commented that it takes the fun out of driving and that's really the best way to describe the disappointment. Certainly not what I expected from my second Acura and enough to cause me to spend more for the BMW next time. (I sold my M3 for the TL - it was too expensive)

I've never owned an automatic. I like to run through the gears and the trouble with my TL has robbed me of that pleasure. Selling the car would piss me off more over the money I'd lose, so the way I see it, it's a lose-lose situation. I envy those of you that said they never had a problem, it might have been a great car.

evanj5

Ok so I have only had a chance to drive my car around town a little bit and no problems with third gear at all. However you know when I got the first TSB with new fluid is was fine for a week or so too so I guess time will tell, they obviously replace the fluid when doing the TSB.

I mean the crazy thing is my car feels like a completly different car right now. All of the shifts feel different and actually I must say smooth (for now at least) and the clutch pedal feels a lot different. They replace A LOT of parts and I also got a new clutch and flywheel so I am going to have to give a real update in a couple weeks but I actaully have a good feeling about this fix.

If my third gear or any gear starts to act up I will let you guys know ASAP and come to zine to vent my frustration with this car that I cherish so dear. However I would have no problem if I had to lemon the car and would go right over to bmw (ooops I said it) but thats the truth.

jchcmax

I jumped on the bandwagon from reading all the threads about GM synchromesh. Unfortunately th GM stuff did not solve the prob with my shifting. The only solution that I came across is Amsoil. Just wanted to throw this out there for those who want something that works better.

vector7777

Any repercussions to the rest of the car from the removal and reinstall of the tranny? I assume that considerable work has to be done, even on the interior of the car, to get the transmission out?

Thanks for the update. I have yet to cancel my 9am appt. so I guess I'm going through with it. Your positive experience (so far) makes me a bit more comfortable.

evanj5

Inside of my car was prestine just like it was when I dropped it off. Car didnt even get washed and still is pretty clean, however it does look like it was left out in the rain for a day or two, BLAH, tons of spots, they will come out easy since I had just waxed her.

I got a smell and was scared but read that when you get a new OEM clutch it smells for the first couple hundred miles of breaking in period.

Other then that tomorow I am gonna be having some fun back in the saddle of this rediculously fast car and maybe Ill get the j-pipe installed as well ^^, want to put the j-pipe on really bad but also want a chance to feel how the car is before and after install.

I will keep everyone updated on how the car is feeling the next couple of days. I really dont want to switch away from Honda MT fluid to be honest, so if I have problems she goes back to dealer ASAP.

I was scared about getting the work done too and even thought that I wasnt going to see my car for another week, but all is well and car feels great just need to break in my new clutch

Juiced_Acura_Kidd

I have an appointment next Monday to do this job. They will have the car 2-3 days. Says its a $3,000 job. Sucks for them! They are giving me an RDX to drive around in. Also having that pump replaced which causes the fire if they get the parts in time. Forgot exactly what part.

Excelon

I did not get my car in, loaner car issues. So I have to wait until next week.

As far as my comment to the fluid not my fix... according to my dealer I supposedly already have FR fluids in my car due to it being the type S, whether it's BS or not who knows. Like posted above as well, why is this design flaw still being produced on an obviously well documented problem dating back 3 years atleast? If there is a bottleneck at 3rd for lubrication, why not improve it. It makes no sense to keep producing an inferior product at a premium price.

I did purchase this car with the hopes of a performance car with some class. So far I have just been disappointed. The fun in driving is not there. Downshifting to 3rd only to have it not engage while driving on the freeway is not exactly what I had pictured. I used to own a 04 Volvo S60 R which was also a 6 speed and never had these problems. I now actualy miss it cause it was a very fun vehicle to drive. I'll just quit while I'm ahead. I am very upset with my car and have nothing good to say about it at this time.

I'll update next week after I have dealt with the dealer, but it doesn't sound like I'm going to get my miracle fix.

Adobeman

Now THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT !
It's funny how many refuse to see MTF as anything more than lube, oil, slippery stuff. I can understand how some would worry about warranty issues bit to argue that MTF formulation shouldn't matter is ridiculous. Heck, I've had Saabs that recommended and worked fine 10W30 in the gears. The 3G MT TL ain't no old Saab though...

Select your possible remedies and work forward from least invasive to most invasive. Stop when satisfied. MTF is certainly least invasive compared to synchro or gear set replacement.

ezshift5

.....borrowing a line from Pine Top nonwithstanding............

...you got it right about der goo!

best, ez....

BEAR-AvHistory

What did they charge for these?

BEAR-AvHistory

Interesting, a number of guys here are claiming that they are the same stuff made for GM by Amsoil.

evanj5

Well been driving the car for awhile now and not a single problem with changing gears. I still think however that I am going to get the synchomesh stuff to improve the fluidity of the shifting.

Only thing now is getting into reverse when the car is really cold is hard only gear having problems. I think that will just go away however.

SodaLuvr

Don't do it. There's no reason to resort to those fixes if the transmission is working fine. Besides, I have a friend at GM engineering that works with these fluids on a daily basis, and he told me to not use it an applications that it is not recommended for. He said he was uncertain about the long-term effects.

vector7777

Just to give a quick update...Apparently, the TSB parts are back ordered.


My car is at the dealer as we speak and has been since Tuesday. Unfortunately they took the transmission out before ordering the parts. No word on when the parts will be available. So those of you still considering whether you should do the 3rd gearset change or not...you may as well wait a couple of weeks until Acura can fill the initial demand.

raven37

Can Someone point me to the TSB for the Acura TL that has the instructions to change the gearset? How about the TSB #?

Also, are these guys replacing clutches and flywheels as part of the TSB?