daytl

Is it possible for Acura to offer a diesel version of the 4th generation tl? That would be sweet if it had 270 hp and 400 ft/lb torque and get 45-50 mpg with vcm.

tracerit

learn how to ask a question, i'm sure i'm not going to be the only one expecting some information coming in.

1995hoo

I got all excited when I saw the subject line. I've driven diesel cars in the UK (a VW Passat and a Vauxhall Vectra) and was very impressed with the fuel economy, especially for non-motorway driving (that is, any car can get good mileage on the motorway). Based on my experience there, I'd probably jump at a diesel TL in an instant as long as the 6MT is available. When I saw the original post in this thread I was extremely disappointed that I had wasted my time clicking on it.

07WDP

um, yea,

no.

sifuacura

iTrader: (1)

when acura does diesel, the world will end.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

You guys have no idea what you're talking about.
Let me frame this for you...I sold my 2002 VW TDI Jetta "Turbo Charged Direct Injected" for a TL. Those TDI engines are beasts! In that little 1.9L engine, with a chip tune and bigger fuel injectors (about $500 in mods) it laid down the same HP and more Torque than my TL, while getting 50 mpg. You couldn't keep the front wheels on the ground. VW's pride of the rally circuit (and frequently beating the Subi crew) is a 2.0L TDI diesel AWD Golf.

It's just a matter of time that this happens, Honda already produces a GREAT diesel engine in the UK:

http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/n...diesel_engine/

It's important to understand... a dieel engine works a lot different than a gas one. They make LOTS of torque, which means they have lower HP ratings. All than means, is to get equivalent "speed" the engine doesn't rev out to 7000 rpm... Every stroke of the engine is about 3X more powerful than a "gas stroke", so don't be fooled thinking a 150 HP diesel is "weak", check the torque figures of the 2.2L above. It puts out more torque than the TL today... The tranny's are just geared lower...

With gas prices moving towards $4 a gallon, AND the new Ultra Low Sulfer Diesel statndards finally being implemented in the US, you will see an inrush of High output european diesels in the coming years.

If I could get the the overall vehicle reliability of a Honda product in a diesel engine, combined with the benfits of MODERN (i.e milage and easy tunability), I'd be ALL OVER IT. These are not those awful chrysler diesels of the 80's.

When Honda Acura brings that 2.2L or bigger to the states, I'll be the first in line to get one, and first in line to show you what it can do.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Sometimes I miss the old dirty devil... :

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=132840

1995hoo

I averaged 38.1 mpg in that Vauxhall Vectra in about 400 miles of driving around England the weekend before last. People who equate diesels with truck diesels or with the old stinky engines of the early 1980s are thinking of something totally different.

A lot of people would resist diesels because the fuel often costs more per gallon than gas. People are too lazy to do the math to realize that the higher mileage quickly makes up for it.

Tripnbeats

That would be sick!! I doubt theyd ever bring something like that to the US.... and if they would it would be super limited.... and if they had the TL in europe Im sure it would be diesel Id have to arrange an engine n wiring harness import.

DMZ

Other reasons people resisted diesels is that they used to be VERY noisy and would emit lots of soot. Thankfully, that's all changing now.

Black_05_TL_6SP

He is 100% correct!!! I am all for diesel power in the US. We are the only country in the world that does NOT use very many diesel vehicles. More fuel efficiency, more power and easy to tune!!

The key to high horsepower #'s is only RPM.

Power (hp) = Torque (ft-lb) * RPM / 5252

5252 rpm being the equality of hp to torque. At that point hp will always equal torque. The reason diesel engines don't do that is because they don't rev that high. hp is merely a calculated # used to sell cars. Torques is way more important, and diesel cars produce plenty of it!!


I wish there where more diesel vehicles in the US.

Black_05_TL_6SP

This can be made up for now adays with bio-diesel. Which one could produce themselves for around 80-90 cents a gallon. Also, more gas stations are starting to offer it, at least here in the south.

darksom1

All of that math means nothing when you are standing at the diesel pump! Gas is ridiculous NOW! That high mileage will work out LATER! Most of the crowd on this forum would probably be like the crowd on the forum that Chris posted his Bora in. Besides, people nowadays aren't like that old Benz diesel market that kept their car for 10 years and then gave it to their kids to cut their driving teeth on! The turnover rate for car ownership in this forum is ridiculous! Damn near 1-2 years sometimes! Nobody here will keep that car long enough to get that benefit from excuse the pun, longevity, except for the "appreciative/knowledgeable" few.

Bling, bling is the theme nowadays...not built like a tank!

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

It's coming dude... Trust me.

From VW, one of the ONLY diesel passenger cars available in 2006 (mercedes E series CDI is the only other):

This is due to the new diesel fuel standrard FINALLY being implemented. When that happens, the rush will follow. Just wait to you see the offerings from BMW, Audi, and Merecedes as well.

08 and 09 are going to be real interesting.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Neat Honda Diesel add...

http://www.honda.co.uk/change/

Honda is obviously quit proud AND COMMITTED to Diesel technology... So far ahead of our administrations energy policies.

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

Guess that depends where you are. Here in San Diego premium is at the cheapest $3.69/gal, maybe $3.39 on the TJ border.....but thats a drive in itself. Or diesel yesterday was $2.79/gal. So you'd save around $15 a fill-up.......considering if our cars were diesel.

6spMike

I test drove a TDI jetta before I got the TL. It had low end torque, but that was it. When you gave it gas, you'd get a push in the seat, but then nothing after. I really wanted to go diesel, but I just couldn't from the lack of performance. It still had the smell somewhat, too, but at least it was quiet.
my brother used to have an '84 Rabbit diesel; it had the spare mounted on the bumper so that space was used for the fuel tank, a 30 gal tank. It had 1500 mile range, but man, was it gutless.
I agree diesels are the way to go, but I just couldn't do it this time.

Tripnbeats

google the MYT engine and listen to the guy who introduces it.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

In stock form they are pretty gutless... but remember what you're comparing it to. The intended "feature" is fuel savings, there's little "spirit" i

Trust me when I say this. $1000 worth SAFE engine mods make those Jetta's SCREAM.

Just one of many examples:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...t=dyno+results

Before:


After: Turbo rebuild, ECU chip, fuel injectors, and some intake restriction cleanup:


Remember, those are WHEEL numbers, and the Jetta is significantly lighter than the TL.

It amazes me how "de-tuned" these engine are and how well they respond to a few simple mods...

The Passats come with a 2.0L engine, and with JUST a chip, folks are getting 170HP 310 ftlbs of torque!

I'm sold on diesel, I'm not sold on VW... as you can tell, I miss the pocket rocket.

6spMike

If I recall correctly, the Jetta TDI was rated about 40 mpg highway, compared with 30 mpg highway for the TL. At the time, diesel was more expensive, about $2.80 vs $2.50 for premium.
For 15k miles a year, the savings would have been around $200. I was willing to pay that for the TL.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Not splitting hairs, I drive a TL too.
My Jetta had 110K miles on it, modded to the gills ( I was getting 50+ mpg with an imported European 6 spd install) and I was looking for a step up in size and luxury. At time of sale last year, diesel fuel was actually more expensive than gas, but the weekly costs were still lower as the tank held less, and the milage difference.

When gas pushed to $4 a gallon, diesles will rule the streets... Just like in Europe.

When was the last time you got 30 mpg in the TL BTW.

1995hoo

Guess that depends on how you think. Would I rather spend less money "NOW" but spend that amount six times a month on gas, or would I rather spend a little more money "NOW" but spend it only three times a month on diesel, assuming of course that there were a diesel TL? I'd take the diesel option.

Gas is not all that expensive right now, anyway, in my opinion.

TL-Rocket

Perhaps you should check the new BMW 535D (Europe only....): 272 HP, 412 lb-ft.
Not bad from a 3 litre six.

I can see it now - instead of acurazine articles on 2nd Gen 6MT conversions, there will be threads on 3rd Gen Diesel conversions.....

TL-Rocket
'04 TL 6MT

1995hoo

That's pretty good.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (most likely either Car and Driver or Road & Track) that Honda's been working on a 50-state diesel powerplant. Interesting thing to see will be whether they opt of a version of the econoboxes with a diesel or whether they put it in the higher-end cars. It seems to me that the Civic is already so efficient that it doesn't stand to benefit much from a diesel.

What I don't understand is why no automaker has tried a diesel-electric hybrid. Seems like the logical next step to me.

Black_05_TL_6SP

Government!!! Diesel has never been the prefered choice by lawmakers that have made there money off of the oil industry!!

We need more diesel in the US.

LuvMyTSX

April 25, 2007 3:09 PM PDT
A diesel Honda? That gets 62.8 miles a gallon?
Posted by Michael Kanellos

Feast your eyes on this, car technology and high-mileage nuts. It's a Honda Accord that runs on diesel.

Honda expects to bring the clean-diesel car to the U.S. by 2010. It gets 62.8 miles a gallon on the highway, but otherwise looks and feels like a regular Accord. At that mileage level, the car is about as "clean" as a new Toyota Prius. But if you run it on biodiesel, a form of diesel made from vegetable oil or animal fat, it would be even cleaner than a Prius (Priuses get 60 in the city).

The advantage of diesel cars, however, is that they pack a lot of power.
Honda diesel Accord(Credit: Courtesy Diesel Technology Forum)

The car was shown off with a number of other cars in Sacramento, Calif., earlier this month as a way to promote clean diesel cars and technology. In the '90s, California passed strict emission controls that restricted the amount of sulfur a car could emit. As a result, diesel manufacturers curbed sales to California and the U.S. in general.

Since then, petroleum manufacturers have devised cleaner diesels that only emit about 15 parts per million of diesel, down from hundreds of parts per million. That satisfies the California law. Manufacturers, meanwhile, have come out with more efficient and powerful diesel engines that get 20 to 40 percent better mileage than their older cars.

"A lot of changes have taken place in the engine, all thanks to electronics," said Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum, which helped organize the Clean Diesel Technology Tour. (Cars from Audi and a tractor trailer rig from Caterpillar were also shown). "Half the cars in Europe are diesel."

Thus, diesels, usually thought of as smelly, are now environmentally somewhat sound.


http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9712548-7.html

FWIW, my '04 TSX would be traded without much thought if they brought that car to the US.

Tripnbeats

Automakers have made and continue to make diesel hybrids... in europe. no one (here) really wants them. I mean u get good milage but who wants a top speed of 80?

AAAAAnd that honda turbo diesel is a nice addition to the honda family it'll do great in europe....probably even here if people wanna accept it... Id buy one for sure.

mishar

Diesel is great engine. Audi won 24 Hours of Lemans last year with 12 cylinder diesel. But let’s not compare apples and oranges. First – less power is les power. High end torque is important if you are driving manual, so you do not have to shift so often. It is vital for engines that work almost all the time on its maximum power. Ships, trucks, power plants… They use diesel engines exclusively. But for cars they have only one advantage: better mileage, and few disadvantages: price, noise, lower power from same engine weight.

So if there is diesel TL right now, it would have to be 6 cylinder turbo in order to produce same power. It would be at least 200 lb heavier and $5k more expensive. If you drive it in a same manner it would save about 10% - 15% of fuel. Difference in fuel price is purely political thing, so it may be lower or higher, but let’s say it is the same. Now everybody has to do own math. How many miles do you need to go in order to compensate price difference?

I wouldn’t be so enthusiastic about easy modifications. In order to make diesel engine compatible to gas engine Honda engineers have to use most of that reserve some of us found in WV. Audi already makes about 30% more power from same engine. Try to mod that one. It will be similar as upgrading TL’s engine today. CAI and … CAI … and may be CAI

There is another thing to be considered. Today’s diesels are product of resent development. We can expect that gas engine engineers will retaliate soon in everlasting war between the two.

Of course if it is in and all your friends and neighbors will envy you … well, that is completely different math.

6spMike

Diesels make torque at low rpms. Gas engines make torque at high rpms. You can take advantage of that with the gears to get more performance (acceleration, top speed, hill climbing, whatever) out of the gas engined car.
That's why the diesels feel really fast off the line, but then fall flat once you get going.
Fuel prices will probably have to rise pretty high before Joe American gives up his love affair for speed and settles down with economy.
There are some thermodynamic laws that limit how much efficiency (power or mileage) you can get in an internal-combustion engine. Without a drastic change in materials (like ceramic motors) we may be close to that limit now.

1995hoo

In spite of media propaganda, the price of gas as it works out per year has not risen outrageously in the USA in the past year or two. At least, it hasn't risen enough to make a difference to the average consumer.

Suppose you fill up three times per month (36 times a year) and put in 15 gallons per fillup. The following chart traces the cost per year for you. The grade of gas (or diesel) is irrelevant in this chart because all that matters is what you pay per gallon for whatever sort of gas you buy. I cite 88¢ a gallon as the starting point because that's about the cheapest I can recall in the DC area since 1989, and I cite $3.23 a gallon because that's what I paid the last time I filled up the TL the week before last.

88¢—$475.20 per year
$1.00—$540 per year
$1.50—$810 per year
$2.00—$1080 per year
$2.50—$1350 per year
$3.00—$1620 per year
$3.23—$1744.20 per year
$3.50—$1890 per year
$4.00—$2160 per year
$4.50—$2430 per year
$5.00—$2700 per year
$5.50—$2970 per year
$6.00—$3240 per year

Thus, the difference between $2.50 a gallon and $3.23 a gallon is not quite $400 a year. I tend to think that to anyone who can afford a TL, $400 a year won't make a difference.

chill_dog

$400 a year isn't a lot, but $400 a year with another $400 a year every 2-3 years adds up. I now pay three times what I paid for gas 6-7 years ago. Each incremental increase wasn't a big deal (although I did have better uses for the money), but the rate of increase, if continued (which I'm sure it will) will catch up to everyone eventually and be a big deal.

What I love is how the oil company's say we haven't cut consumption...as long as I have to drive to work everyday, I have to consume it, and at a constant rate. And I'd be willing to bet this is the boat most people are in. Consumption won't decrease until companies allow people to work remotely (but I'm sure the real estate/developer lobby would have something to say about that).

Now, back to topic...a diesel TL (or any car, for that matter)...I'd evaluate it along with any other car(s) I was looking at and weigh all of the costs...basically, what anyone should do before they buy a car.

mishar

What I ment to say is: Low end torque is important if you are driving manual... Sorry!

Hooksta

I drove my first diesel in Germnay two years ago...it was a BMW 3 series. It was a six speed MT. It surprised me (not in a good way) when I hit the rev limiter so freaking quickly in first gear. If I recall the limiter hit around 5,500 rpms...as opposed to the typical 7,000 or so in our Acuras. HOWEVER, the sixth gear in this BMW flat out ROCK! It could cruise at 80kph or 200+kph at no trouble (on the Autobahn). That was the single most impressive gear I've ever had the opportunity to be in. Got great gas mileage, great power, great car.

I have been telling friends ever since renting that car that I would go diesel if we ever get it right in the U.S. No way I am buying a hybrid...but a BMW diesel...bring it on!

1995hoo

I can certainly agree with that, because the one thing lacking on my RX-7's rotary engine is low-end torque. Have to rev it fairly high when mixing it up in rush-hour traffic in DC if you don't want everybody cutting you off all the time. Revving it high doesn't put strain on a Wankel, but it does kill the fuel economy.

Hmmm.......a diesel Wankel.......there's an interesting thought......

1995hoo

The BMW 3-series diesel (current model is the 330d, not yet sold stateside) redlines at 4,800 rpm. Car and Driver loved the car but said that they'd probably opt for the gas version simply due to the low redline sapping some of the fun.

I can't say I recall the redline on either of the diesels I've driven. Of course, the Vectra I had two weeks ago was an automatic so it was irrelevant (don't recall whether it had a tach), and last year when I drove a Passat it was my first experience with right-hand drive so I wasn't paying a lot of attention to redline and such, you know? Concentrating too much on the road!

But anyway, going back to the BMW, does anyone know why diesels have a lower redline than gasoline engines?

lanceb1b

I would buy a diesel in a heartbeat, I lived in Germany 5 yrs, of course I am 39

6spMike

I think it has more to do with the physics of what is going on than mechanical longevity considerations, although diesels use around 21:1 compression ratios, so there could be some piston-to-valve or piston-to-head clearance considerations from that.

The gas or diesel air/fuel mixture takes a certain amount of time to burn that is independent of engine rpms.

Since a gas engine uses a spark to ignite the fuel, that spark is timed earlier (advanced) as the rpms increase, so the expanding gases push down on the piston at the optimum time.

A diesel engine relies on the heat generated by compressing the air on the compression stroke to ignite the mixture. The fuel ignites as soon as it is injected into the cylinder. Because you have to wait for the compression stroke to heat the air, the injection of fuel can't be advanced very far. You could rev the diesel higher, but it makes less and less torque at higher rpms, because the piston is already down before the burning mixture gets to it.
At least I think that's what is going on. Anyone really know?

Hooksta

Thanks! I just remembered that I slammed into the rev limiter VERY quickly. It sort of "rained" on my party of trying to rip through the gears. I thought it might be lower than 5,500 but wasn't sure. I just knew it was very low.

Just returned from Ireland last week and got my chance to drive a MT for 10 days driving on the right side of the car and road. Baby those round abouts are cool...but easy to get lost if you don't plan where you are going well. I travelled most of the Southern half of Ireland. And apparently the Irish don't need road signs. Actually that isn't totally true you do see a few AFTER you make the turn that you were supposed to make. Great people and if you ever get the chance to go...enjoy yourself a Gunniess. They taste SOOOOO much better than they do here. Night and Day. Supposedly (according to the Irish I spoke to about the subject), Gunniess does not travel over water. That pretty much leaves you to drinking them in Ireland I guess.

Tripnbeats

i fill up every 2 days i dont care about the gas or the money it takes..... u have a car? u wanna drive? then u need money and gas thats it simple....lol u want more milage per gallon get diesel or a biofuel car. =)