260 HP

iTrader: (3)

1995 is not just a different car. It's a different era where car manufacturers built cars differently.

Car manufacturers' main concern right now is to build cars as cheaply as possible to keep the prices roughly the same. It was true 10-15 years ago but it's even more right now.

Anyway, back to topic....

mickey3c

LOL well as my post said the tl is made cheaper than the accord was LOL....

But it seems and not to slam you.. That you only look at the car and not how it was made.

As I said in the past the best value might not be the best car. I would not own another tl past the warranty. You are asking for problems...

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you that the TL is probably made cheaper than my Accord.

My point is, Japan- or US-built Japanese cars have about the same quality. But it's just IMO.

Anyways, I do look at how a car was made. Otherwise, I would have bought G35C, not the TL. I don't know how reliable the TL will be after the warranty period ends, but let's see.... Myself, I don't plan to keep the car too long after the warranty expires anyway.

Again, back to topic.

imaginis

When someone finds out how the "TL was made" please contact me, ASAP. I guess we could ask the little robot arms that screw everything together.

My friend has a 04 330, and my 05 TL feels more solid than his does. His car reminds me of riding in an old t-top camaro.

tommyy2

Buying a new TL seems like a real crap shoot. Getting a car with a problem is not really too bad (as long as it gets fixed). Getting a Manufacturer that refuses to fix/replace/acknowledge the problem is beyond bad.

35K is too much for me to shoot craps with.

Till Acura starts to stand behind their products I won't buy another.

HiG4s

Everyone keeps throwing around the fact the TL costs "$35k".. So what.. over the last 50 to 60 years, the average car has cost approximatly the same as the average wage..
the average wage index for 2003 was $34k,, reference here. http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

so the TL is an average priced car,,, not a top end or luxury car.. Yes it has some nice features for an average priced car, but anyone that thinks it is some special top end car that somehow should be better than all the rest is blowing smoke..

I'm not saying Honda should not back it when it has problems, but some peoples expectations are just to high.. Yes, I hear a few rattles and buzzes at times and I'm trying to locate and correct them.. But the fact is most of the noises I hear would be totally drowned out by engine, road and wind noise in most Chevy, Ford, or Dodge products of comparable price.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

HiG4s,

rexracer

Average price of a new car is about $28K. You can buy a car for $28k that has no rattles (toyota, subaru to name a few).

Prolanman

It's been said many times before, but you'll always find people complaining on forums about cars. You rarely ever hear from the people who have no serious issues with a car. I'm sure the ratio of people with minor or no problems is much less than those with problems. Check out the forums for Lexus, BMW, Infiniti. You'll find unhappy people on those forums that think that their cars are POS.

The problem that John5000 is having still sounds like a wheel/tire issue. It seems they managed to reduce the vibration. If the problem is with the actual tires than the dealer will tell you that you'll have to deal with the tire manufacturer (read the tire warranty they should have given you when you picked up the car). There is no way in hell I would let them get away with damamging my rims though. You should definately fight them on this.

Rexracer, it sounds like you have a wheel/tire balance issue as well. As for the alignment and the steering wheel not being straight. Those two issues are most likely one in the same. Once they did the alignment it should have straighten out your steering wheel. Was it like this when you picked up the car? If not it could have gotten knocked out of alignment when you were driving it. I wouldn't call this a major issue as they were able to resolve it. The rattling they should be able to fix. Also not a major issue.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Hmm, name a Toyota that has no rattles at all. I haven't driven a Subaru, so I can't say anything abt Subie.

My family and closest friends have owned numerous Toyotas and Lexuses. While I agree that they're built better than most Hondas/Acuras, but they're not without fault and have rattles too. Maybe less, but they're there too.

What HiG4s meant in his post, don't think that the TL is a super duper top of everything car. The MSRP is only $35k fully loaded. What other car share the same MSRP and built better than the TL? Not many... Probably the only car that's "screwed" together better is the ES330. But it's missing a lot of features the TL offers. So at the end, it all comes to compromises. Are you willing to let go some things to gain some other things? It's _only_ a $35k car.

If you feel that you'll hate the TL due to its problems with rattles, etc, you might want to buy something else that you feel that you won't hate. If you already have the car and you hate it so much, just put your car in Autotrader and buy something else and move on. Once again, it's only a car, it's not worth it to lose any sleep over. It's just a car, enjoy it while you own it and accept its shortcomings. If you can't, it's time to move on.

Just my $.02.

Prolanman

Not to mention that a ES330 equipped like a non-navi TL will run you close to 40K plus TTL. I don't even think they offer a Navi. If they do then that would be another 2K or so.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

MSRP for Lex ES330 with Nav and HID but without Mark Levinson audio is $37,119.00. Mark Levinson audio adds another $2200.

MSRP for TL with Nav is $35,100.

Wildcat Jon

You guys must be newbies to this forum to think that the vibration is a rim or tire or other such issue. Do some research for God's sake! This issue is inherent in many of the 04s and many with 05s are also complaining about it. Search "vibration" "lemon" "tires" etc. and you'll see that the dealer likely cannot fix most of these vibration issues.

John5000

Well, tomorrow I get to drive another 40 miles to let the regional rep take the car for a test drive and let me know what he thinks. Also found some gouges down to the primer in the paint near the wheel wells. Looks like a socket fell off their air gun and nailed the side of my car. The dealer said they would look at it in addition to the gouges in the rims when I bring it back. All this on a car with only 2000 miles on it. I'll let you all know what the tech comes up with. I'll go way out on a limb and guess he'll say its a characteristic of this car provided at no charge.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

I don't know who you're talking about. If it's about me, I knew about the vibration issue all along. It only happens on 5AT cars. That's why I bought 6MT.

However, his is a 6MT. He stated it in the beginning of the thread. That's why we try to brainstorm and throw out ideas what might be the root cause.

SnappyPappy

WOW! I'm reading all these comments on the TL and now the BMWs and just saying WOW! I have both a 330i and the '05 TL. No problems with either. I would take exception with comments above about BMW and a Camaro. I would suggest you go and test drive a BMW 330i with a less jaundiced attitude and you'll see those little guys are truly sweet. TL's cannot approach the handling or braking of this vehicle. Perhaps a shade quicker (225hp vs. 270hp). I paid about the same for both cars and the TL has more goodies than BMW. Jap cars seem to lead the gadget parade. But automotive wise - the TL just doesn't measure up to the Bimmer. More wind noise, not as smooth, less road feel, etc, etc,. Don't get me wrong I find the TL a real hoot to drive and like the car A LOT inspite of it's shortcomings. That's why I drive it and the wife the BMW. I'm sorry to hear of the guys with vibrations that would drive me crazy also. But that doesn't seem that widespread. Must be fixable . . . :gheywave:

tommyy2

The vibration issues that seem to occur in some TL's (both auto and manual) is not what turns me off. What turns me off is Acura not fixing or replacing these cars. They now claim the vibration is just a characteristic of the car (sure), and refuse to do anything about it.

So instead of getting your vibration problem fixed under warranty, you have to sue them to try to get it corrected (only if you win) - and for that reason I say ACURA SUCKS BIGTIME!

Till they start honoring their warranty, I won't buy another.

mickey3c

Well there is the rub... If some have it and some do not, then acura should get two cars (one with and one without) and go over the entire car to see what the issue is. Yeah it takes time, but coming from a mechanical design standpoint, you can turn the experts loose on this one and have them concentrate on just identifying the issue and fixing it.

But of course what happens is if there is something really wrong they have to save face and MONEY! I love it when they say it ain't broke it is a characteristic of some cars and saying that those cars are made up of thousands of components from multiple vendors is one cop out. I do not care what their issues are. I live with that in my business as well.

The price reflects the quality. Best bang for the buck and best rattles etc as well. As soon as people get the idea out of their head that this is a peformance car and needs to have more items checked and looked after, the sooner acura will start doing something about the problems. I do not want to know the service people that well and do not want to see them on a regular basis.

I think many car makers think it is acceptable to be able to make something flimsy and then after we buy it and test it for them, they say hmm better do this or that (as in the seat issue in the 04). The seat is not broken or worn in the 04 prematurely, it is characteristic of a seat. It is purely asthetic. As a contractor myself I would be pissed to have to deal with a seat issue like this.

As the miles rack up on the spouse's 05 I cross my fingers...

Prolanman

I went to the Lexus site and chose the available options there to price the car. Go there and you will see for yourself.

Prolanman

I waited for the 05 myself after reading all of the complaints regarding vibrations. I'm happy to say that after 11K miles I don't have any of these issues. I also have a 2003 BMW 530i which my wife drives and don't have any issues with that car either.

I just think that there are far fewer people with problems than those without. If all of the TL's were POS then there would have been a huge drop off in sales that would have forced Acura to take more action.

Prolanman

I think that every manufacturer of almost every product ever made relies on the customer to help tham build a better product. You will find few exceptions to this rule. If the customer doesn't let them know what they don't like or what's wrong they won't know where to make a change. As in the 04 seat issue. Hence the design change for the 05 seats. The manufacturers aren't able to test there products as well as the real world.

It sucks that people have a problem with a new car, at any price. I would be just as pissed off if I bought a 20K car and it had the same problems. Hopefully everyone will be able to get the problems resolved at the dealerships.

tommyy2

"Hopefully everyone will be able to get the problems resolved at the dealerships."

When Acura calls the steering wheel/floor vibrations "a characteristic of the car" that dosen't seem possible.

Wildcat Jon

Amen Tommy. Dealers are using the "normal characteristic" or "it's a corporate issue" crutch and refusing to even try to fix the vibration. Then you get whipsawed between dealer and corporate with nobody taking any responsibility to fix. I'd love to look at a new MDX for my wife, but no way I'm going back to Acura. I'm looking only at the XC90 and GX470 for her. As for me, if I can get out of this POS through litigation, I'm going with the new 330i. Test drove the 2006 today. Blows the TL away in almost every respect. Of course, it is about 8K more, but after what I've been through, it would be worth it.

GUMP

I just got a letter from Kimmel and Silverman in Philly telling me my arbitration hearing is on Sept 15, 05. I submitted my clain back in November. So, it will be 10 months before the first action takes place on my case. I've actually got used to the "characteristic". But I'm still going to try to get something out of Acura for the aggrevation. We'll see.

tommyy2

Would it do any good writing letters to the editor to consumer reports and other popular magazines explaining what Acura considers a normal characteristic of this car. I'd think the last thing Acura would want is any publicity concerning how they are handling this problem. I wonder how in demand the TL would be if John Doe knew the crap shoot it was in buying one.

mickey3c

I do not think writing letter matters that much. There are tons of people who are on this forum that do not own an acura as yet, but still go ahead and purchase them evern after seeing 2G and 3G issues.

They want the 0-60 aspect of the car and figure that the rattles or vibrations are just a few complainers. They do not realize that many people live with the problem day to day and only a few push it to the level where they go to arbitration. But then that can take about a year... so you have the car for like 18 months before you get to find out if they will take the car back. If you are like me you have about 30,000 miles on the car and what then? You only get 66% of the car back?

tsill

Why go arbitration if you can go lemon law? I am going that route now and will let everyone know what happens. I know that there are others that are doing the same thing so we'll see.

Good to see you are going with the 330i Wildcat. I'm not sure what I will go with, probably audi. Also will go used I'm sure. Not interested in dealing with dealerships anymore. I can work on my own cars, but not a vibe issue with a brand new car.

Purchasing a new car for the first time sure does make you realize how not to make mistakes the second time around.

tommyy2

I've got a CLS MT and was thinking of trading in our Q45 and getting a new TL. After reading about the unfixable problems I've decided not to. I don't think everyone would react the same as me but I bet many would.

I'd bet if this got widely known it would seriously hurt Acura's reputation, as well as their sales (perhaps long term). Good reputations take a long time to build but can be destroyed really fast. I bet if they sensed it was being publicized they would be much more active in trying to correct it.

Prolanman

Like I said, more people complain about the problems than people who do not have problems praise the car. I have an 05 and do not have any issues that made me regret buying the car. I'm sure I'm not alone. If the majority of people who bought this car were truely unhappy then Acura whould have aready made more changes. Their sales numbers also would have dropped out through the bottom.

I would also think that if everyone didn't read about rattles than no one would tune into them. There are of course exceptions to the rule. There were issues that Acura did address from the 04 to 05 model year. The seat covers and the harmonic resonance from the exhaust (what alot of people considered a driveline vibration).

No car is perfect, no matter how much money you spend. Ask some MB, BMW, Infiniti, and even Lexus owners about the problems they have had.

DLM1213

I also have a 05 TL AT/NAVI that does not seem to have the vibration problem. The only issue I have along this line appears to be from the tires getting the flat spots overnight but seems to clear up after 10-15 minutes and the vibration is barely noticable around 55-60. I just got mine at the end of Feb so I only have 1700 miles so far. The only disapointment I have is the dash is now starting to develope a rattle. This is a little disappointing having owned a 89 Accord for 12 years and I still have my 93 Accord and both are solid.


At this time, no regrets, too much fun driving it!

caha14

I completely agree with you, but like I've always said, it's how they deal with the problems that makes a difference. I dumped my TL-S last year for a Lexus and couldn't be happier. Forget about the vehicles themselves; Lexus and Acura service are like night and day.

I, for one, will never buy an Acura again and have convinced others against it. I've been a Honda fan for the longest time, but the treatment I received from ACS sealed their fate in my book. They're relying on the name they made with wonderful vehicles like the Legend, but we'll see how long they'll go if they keep this crap up with the transmissions, vibrations, etc.

AALI

dO you get ride off your TL yet or not.?

Gr8Cruiser

I'm not even gonna start speculating on the whole vibration issue, as I have no clue what the deal is, but I do have a question....I've seen it said a number of times that the vibration is often in 5th gear at 1500 rpm's. Is that true, or is at various speeds/rpm's? I have a 6 spd MT...only 600 miles on it. No vibration yet, and no rattles, yet. I tried today to get to 1500 rpm's in 5th, and couldn't even do it. My rpm's are up around 2800....and I neeed to slow waaaaay down on an exit ramp just to get it close to 1500 in 5th. Why would anyone be driving at such low rpm's in that gear anyway? I'd be downshifting before it got there. When I'm accelerating, my rpm's are always higher than that, no matter what gear I'm in. I just don't get it.

I'm not denying the problem....I just couldn't duplicate the conditions. I'll cross my fingers and hope I never have the problem, but it sure sucks for those of you out there ripping your hair out dealing with the Acura dealers that are denying there's a problem, or are unwilling to fix the problem.

Jim

winstrolvtec

At only 600 miles this is normal. When I first got my TL, low rpms were a no no, very rough on the car and tranny especially when new. Once I put a couple thousand that vib was gone. The engine parts need to set in. Jim, the other vib is mostly associated with the automatic tranny. I also have a 6mt and my car gets a vib sometimes from 55 to 65. Not really noticable at all, only when coasting at those speeds and varies depending on tire pressure and temperature. I credit this to the el-42.

John5000

The dealer wants one more shot at fixing the problem. If they dont figure it out this time or get me into a car that doesnt do this then it is lemon law time and a loss of a customer for life.

mickey3c

The engine parts needed to set in???? I have never heard of this. I have had several new cars and as I know you get better gas mileage etc after breakin. I have never heard of a vibration that goes away after breakin.

I also have EL 42 on my other car and after 6000 miles I have not noticed at of the problems that have been cited on this board. Sure they are sucky in the snow, but never a vibration at speed when the car is at operating temperatures.

AALI

Is any body have a problem when they start the car to drive after 1 minute some kind of noise comes from bottom of my car feels like some one hit the car from bottom. Please let me know I just got the car a week ago and very nervous about all those viberations and noises issues.

Thanks

tfe691

i have it in my 6mt less than 1000 miles on it. Have vibration and sometimes vibration in trans right underneath me. thinking about getting rid of it already. it shouldn't have these problems on a $35k car. Have told service department about twice. they have no idea everytime. its ashame because i love the car and every other car looks like an egg.

gsrthomas

Shoulda got a Lexus.

tfe691

Some are nice but look like everything else. EGGS