BustedJack

your argument is basically the same as a dude with a Neon SRT/4 would argue with you.
$38k on a TL that outputs 286hp where I can get a SS supercharged for 21 and spend 10G on it and be faster than you. At the same time, who cares about all the gadges, it's just a car...........

Not many people cares about the handling that would cost about 50k, don't get me wrong.......... 335i is very nice..... but for 50k.........I'd rather get a vette.

nikko

Yeah, and it's funny how many ppl were predicting back then that my 'bimmer' will spend more time in the repair shop than on the hwy...guess they're wrong...knock in wood..no problems, no rattles this car simply doesn't seem to age!
It's true, BMW is a more expensive car but the price is totally justified by the high quality of materials, assembly etc. You get what you pay for.
When a car manufacturer comes up with a luxury sedan below 40K, something is rotten....some corners have been cut!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

1.) Talk about environment, Honda is still regarded as one of the greenest car manufacturers in the word, if not the greenest. I don't know about its plastic (as well as how many people here would know), but one fact that everyone here knows is that Honda makes hybrids, while BMW doesn't. Sure BMW makes diesel engines, but so does Honda. In fact, Honda has already announced its plan to make diesel engines for the North America market. Now that's a big thing since the diesel here is not the same as the diesel found in Europe, and yes, that's a technology breakthrough.

2.) That's a very interesting point and I assume that you are right about it. But I hope you also realize how hard it is to use the I-drive system, as agreed by most car journalists as well as users. May be you are very smart, but I don't think I'm intelligent enough(alone with most people). I know that BMW has already done something to simplify the system, but still, it's far from being user-friendly.

I think perceived quality is just as important as "actual" quality. I mean, afterall, they are related IMO. In the E90 case, I wouldn't call it good quality when the assembly gaps are so pronounced. And once again, using fake wood trim doesn't make the car "real" luxury, just like the TL.

In the end, I agree with you that you get what you pay for. I do think the extra money justifies the performance, handling, and prestige you get from the BMW 3 series.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Internet forum are usually full of biased info, that's very true. That's why when I compare reliabilty of different cars, I prefer using data from consumer reports, as they always compile results from thosands of owners/cars. And as always, Honda/Acura constantly does better than many other car makers.

According to Consumer Reports, Acura TL is one of the most reliable cars (along with Fit, Civic, Accord, TSX, S2k, CRV, Element, MDX, Pilot...):

http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...tentid=4023544

Notice that there's no Honda in the "Least reliable" section, and that means a lot.

Sprtan-117

chiawei

1. Honda makes hybrid. But is it more environmental friendly? Do you know that the battery pack would be more polluting than a clean burning diesel. Not to mention you actually get more gas mileage out of a diesel. BMW is much further ahead than Honda in Hydrogen capability. Not to mention that majority of BMW plastic are recycleable. Who is more environmental friendly? The truth is outthere if you care to research.

2. I-drive takes about 20 minute to master. And quiet easy to use. You can ask an owner of I-drive BMW how they feel about it. None daily user will never get hang of it. Simple as that.

chiawei

The problem with consumer report is that they don't distinguish between minor issue or major issues.

Take last generation TL and V6 Accord automatic as example. It's poorly designed self destruct time bomb. Did consumer report ever report it as least reliable? How would you feel you are doing 60 mph on the highway and all of the sudden your transmission goes bad and you lose all the gears above 2nd.

I will admit that BMW has its share of electronic issues. But mechanically they are far more solid. I have never had a honda/acura that have no issues with warped brake and severe brake fade. Never had a honda/acura that is rattle free. Never had a honda/acura that has no issue with automatic transmission. I have been through 4 honda/acura already. I had more issues than BMW simple as that.

92 Accord- warped brake, glazed disc. SRS failed to deploy.
94 Accord- sunroof track issue, failed ABS, warped brake, burn A/C compressor 2x, rattles from the dash.
98 Accord- minor rattle. warped brake
00 TL- tons of rattle, navi touchscreen would freeze, warped brake x3, transmission issue, broken center console.

compare to BMW
01 530i- failed final stage resistor for fan control, cd-rom navi would crash from time to time.
03 M3- sunroof track issue, rattle from pax seat, same navi issue as 01 530i
03 M5- o-ring seal issue.
06 M5- failed steering angle sensor.

The only car company that is really trouble free from my experience is toyota. Had several toyota and lexus. None of them give me any trouble.

aw1

Get the Bimmer if you dont want navi...

FriscoNick

Consumer Reports does rate brakes, transmissions, electrical systems, etc.

avs007

I know somebody will flame me, and accuse me of doing another TL vs G35 thing, but I really hate when people look at the interior of the G35, (which may not look as nice as a TL's interior), but then say it's lower quality. It absolutely is not....

My G35's rear-view mirror buzzes a little on rough roads, or when I crank up the base, but that's about it.

My TL's center armrest rattles almost constantly (or at least as long as my arm isn't resting on it). I can live with rattles, as they will develop eventually I guess....

The butt-prints don't bother me too much, but the cheapness in the feel of the leather (at least in my 05') is not wearing very well compared to my G35. I got used to the uneven fade of the dash, but it still isn't very pleasant to look at. Even my wife commented on that.

However, the headliner near the sunroof keeps falling down. This is absolutely unnacceptable. Acura decided to fasten the headliner with velco, wheras Infiniti and most everyone else, uses actual fasteners and/or trim pieces that double as retainers. The headliner in my pontiacs both of which have > 120,000 miles hasn't even fallen down... For the headliner in an Acura to fall down, when the car doesn't even have 30,000 miles on it yet, is pathetic. I've had it fixed twice, but it still falls down.

chiawei

Yes, but they don't distinguish from major fault or minor fault. Basically a minor shift harshness counts the same as transmission failure. Which makes consumer report rating kind of useless.

avs007

Exactly.
To help others understand:

In their survey, it asks you a bunch of questions, and you rate the problems from 1-5. However, nowhere does it explain what constitutes a 1 or 2 or 3, etc. So if I were answering it, an alternator failure is minor, because it takes 10 minutes to replace on most of my cars. However, to the wife, it's a catasrophic failure, because she's been stranded on the fwy before because of one. Since there is no consistency with answers, you can't draw any conclusions...

I remember a while back when people flamed CR for their TV review. They heralded the Funai TV as being the best TV for the money. But under closer inspection, you'll note that picture quality wasn't one of the test criteria

Another problem with CR is they only poll their readers, which is a flaw in and of itself... It's like back in the day, when the newspapers called up people on the phone, and asked them who they voted for... Then they declared dewey the winner by a landslide.... However, he actually lost....

If you aren't going to do a scientific sample, then there's no point in taking a sample at all. That would be like going to the Superbowl, then asking your subscription holders to "Da Bears Weekly", who they think is going to win. Or more realistically... Walk into the superdome.... And ask 5 people who they think is going to win, without realizing you are standing in the Bears Cheering section.


As far as BMW electrical problems... I remember a funny post on the BMW boards, where somebody posted a pic of his driveway... Brand new X5, 7 series, and 5 series. He then pointed out that none of them were his, as they were all loaners, because his cars were all in the shop for electrical problems

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

1.) I believe the major concern out there is greenhouse effect. And I am sure you know what causes is - emission. You are right about the fact that battery pack is more polluting, especially when you dispose them (not sure about making them, as I'm no electrical engineer). However, the battery packs that Honda, (as well as Toyota), are FULLY RECYCLABLE. Here is a rather long quote from

http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html#battery

"The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.

Battery toxicity is a concern, althoug today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards."

And yes, Diesel does get better gas mileage in general, not to mention its superb engine torque. However, my point was that, the diesel here in North America contains much higher sulfur content than the diesel in Europe, and also the fact that they have just made the emission laws stricter. If I remember correctly, VW is not even offering and TDI models right now due to the more stringent laws. But Honda announced it has developed a new diesel engine that will meet all the new U.S. standards and turn harmful nitrous oxide into harmless nitrogen. From what I've read so far, Mercedes is the only other auto maker that is having this similar program. That's why I think Honda is an environmental friendly company.

2.) Here's a quote from this website: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/I...ArticleID=8246

"The iDrive system gives drivers the ability to control hundreds of functions, far more than can be controlled on other vehicles, with less "clutter" than is typically found on a dashboard. But, the system does involve a learning curve. One showroom salesman estimated that a comfort level could be reached in as little as two weeks.


"[The iDrive] can frustrate some people who have been driving since age 15 and think they should be able to drive any car without having to take a class or read a manual," says Levin." (Levin is the vice president of industrial solutions at Immersion. "

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I have driven 3 different Hondas so far, and ironically, I have had no major issues (may be a few minor issues).

1.) 90 Civic DX, it was an used car when my family bought it. The only real problem with this car is its lack of power/torque. But what do you expect from a little civic?

2.) 92 Accord LX (DX in the States), we bought it in 1996, so it's an used car again. The muffler was broken once (may be because of the road salt); and the car wouldn't start sometimes due to igition problem.

3.) 2002 TL-S, it already has about 120,000km on it. And honestly speaking, I have had no issues with it. The only issue it had was that when shifting from D4 to D5, the D5 light wouldn't come on. Other issues...are things such as burnt DRL lights, replacing battery, and worn tires. Warped brakes? Transmission failure? rattling? Well, none of those have happened in my TL so far (hope this can continue). One very interesting thing, Subaru is also known for making reliable cars, but if you do some research, you will find that its Outback Sedan has series warped brakes problem. And rattling problem? My corolla and camry have/had that problem.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I guess I was being a little rude there, but I wasn't trying to flame anyone, sorry about that. Anyways, there are reasons why all (or most) car magazines agree that the G35's interior falls short of its competitors and there are reasons why they praise the TL's interior. I can't say ALL TLs out there have better quality interior than ALL G35s, but in general, this fact holds true. There gotta be some TLs that have quality issues, but most other TLs are of high quality. My 2002 TL has 120,000 km on it and like I've said before, I have had no major issues and only a few minor issues so far. The G35 is a good car and I really think it can compete with the 3 series in terms of performance and handling. But the G35 is definitely lacking some fine tuning (and perhaps some expensive critical components).

aznbenz07

I'm sorry, you just can't compare the lasting quality of a japanese car to a european car. I'm on my second acura (96 integra/05 TL) as my brother has gone from vw(95 gti) to bmw (92 m535) with problem after problem after problem.
Knock on wood, I've been literally worry free of major issues. Maybe, the higher end bimmers have less issues, the dude above stated he's had m3's and m5's anc compared them to honda accords. When he should be comparing those to nsx's and RL's, infiniti M's etc.

mbdurham

Same here on the insurance and agree on everything thing else. To make a TL faster than the 335 you would have to buy a Type S take it and the extra 12K to the Chevy dealership and get a C6. It is just not going to happen in the TL's current configuration

mbdurham

This is funny. Pretty much the same thread at e90post where I defended the TL but here I am defending the 335.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I see what you mean here buddy. I defend skyline GTR when people compare it to Vipers and Vettes. But I defend for NSX when people compare it with the GTR.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Anyways, I still think making the TL-S going faster than a 335i is not relly that hard if you are talking about straightline acceleration. I mean I have seen that car racing against G35 and Lexus IS350 in the Feb or Mar 07 version of Best Motoring on Tsukuba. Sure these cars are fast and stock vs stock I will be faster than a TL-S. But really, closing that gap isn't that hard and would not cost tons of $$. Of course, making it handle like those FR machines is another story. But then again, the TL is based on a 2003 Accord platform, while others were just launched not too long ago.

mbdurham

Cutting nearly 1 second off of the zero to 60 time is harder than you think. Check out the 0-60 and quarter mile times of the guys on here with Comptech SC, Exhaust, and Eshift cats. They are still not as fast as a stock 335. Since Comptech is out of business in my opinion the the only way to come close would be to get someone to design a twin turbo system for the TL-S or maybe go with nitrous. Then you would have to throw on some drag radials and hope for the best. The main problem most of the high HP TL's on this forum have seen is lack of traction which goes back to my previous statement the TL-S will never be that fast in its current form. If Acura makes the right changes in '09 with SH-AWD and more HP & torque then yesit will probably be under 5 seconds but now I don't think so.

mbdurham

This comparison of these two cars is like comparing the TL-S and TSX. You could buy a TSX take the extra money for mods and make it as fast or faster than the TL-S so why didn't everyone on this board just do that? Because they are two different classes of cars like the TL and 335.

I also looked at many other options before buying my 335. (BTW I still have my TL) The RL, IS350, G35, S4, TL-S, and C55AMG. I thought the C55 was going to be the front runner but after my test drive in the 335 I was signing the papers.