special-ed

Ok, calling on this great forum for some major help. Here's the scenario:

Last friday on my way to work, engine light turns on. I get to work so everything's fine. Leaving work then on the highway after accelerating, engine light starts to blink so I pull over and notice the car is running really rough. I'm able to make it home going at a snail's pace then first thing this past Monday, get the car to the dealership.

Codes are read and other inspections performed then dealer says 02 sensor is out, #1 piston is blown. Car is also under extended warranty and has about 88k miles on it right now.

So, this should be clear cut and should be covered under the warranty because it's obvious to me with a failed 02 sensor, car was running lean so OBD II is already injecting more fuel to compensate under normal driving conditions. I think under acceleration, OBD compensated even more thus causing the A/F to run too rich thus the blown piston.

So the dealer tells me the extended warranty representative wants me to fax in all my maintenance records. I fax in all receipts since when I first bought the car in 2003. The acura dealer has done the last 2 services on this car BTW. So I fax the stuff in and they come back to me saying it won't be covered since there's a gap where I didn't get the car serviced with them. Yes, I did some of my own oil changes but that was like 30 thousand miles ago. These assholes did the last 2 mntc services so if anything was wrong at that time, they should've known.

So I'm asking for your guys' help cause I don't know what to do. Service dealer rep that I'm working with is being an ass and telling me that he can't even give me the number of the warranty rep he's working with but I can fax info over only.
This is fuckin' bullshit!

rodneyc77

iTrader: (1)

I would say... read your service contract... see if there's anything that says that you HAVE TO service your car at a dealer...

I think it's just a bullsh!t... it should be covered...

06 Acura TL

bullshit...thats a bunch of crock...that is what warantee is for. u have the right to your service repair shop. now if not mistaken, i dont rember seeing anythings in the warantee pacjet about "keep all service record" if they can prove that the service hasnt been done, then yea. but otherwise they better cover it.

lights

iTrader: (1)

bunch of crocks!!
it's because they see your car looks better than other stock TLs.
they think you've done mods on it, that's why they wanted you to show them records of service.

i say it should be under warranty and they should cover it.

Bearcat94

Don't get too upset. Sounds like typical "We'll screw you if we can" tactics - it's like a game that asshole companies play. They just want to see if they can get away with not paying. You'll need to dig in, be professional and push, push, push 'til they bend.

IMO, there is no way that they can not cover this - especially if your records are in order. regardless of where the service was done; even DIY maint.

Sounds like the O2 sensor is the root failure - there is no way routine maint would cause a that to fail. They are grasping at straws, trying to weasel out of thier obligation on technicalities.

mrproul

my o2 sensor was off of my integra for about 3 months and i never blew my motor this does sound like bull shit. also it the CEL was throwing an 02 sensor code right before the motor blew then i would have to say that there was already a problem with that piston that just happened to shit out on you when the 02 sensor failed.

I would also ask them if there was some sort of "O2 sensor maintenace" that was supposed to be checked during the past maintenace sheduals. I am about 99% sure that there isn't and that was not the cause of the piston failure.

Be polite and business like but at the same time make sure you are not just another "sheep" that they can fuck.

Mrproul

ballinfizzle89

iTrader: (6)

I agree!

It should be covered and most likely they will cover it, but they just like making the process a PITA.

About a year ago with my BMW, there was a clicking noise coming from the engine, it took them 3 MONTHS to go and cover it($3,000). Hopefully this well get resolved, and if anything there's always corporate Acura you can deal with.

BTW-I'm sad to see this thread, you have one of the nicest cars, you don't post as often anymore, but when I was a noobie, I used to drool..not that I dont anymore

Desert_TL

Service contract may say that you are required to provide "proof" that all maintenance was performed on the vehicle. Usually this means providing receipts for oil and filters if you did your own oil/filter changes, for example. If you lost receipts for an oil change you did yourself, it would appear to Acura that you skipped that change.

01tl4tl

Read the contract
Then speak directly in person with the SERVICE MANAGER !!!!!ONLY!!!!!
NOT the service writer who sees commi$$ion in every customer

While the district warranty rep wont get involved with you yet- the manager will on your behalf be working with them
Have you called acura? 1-800-382-2238 x5
thats customer care, and when you make a claim/file opened on issue with them, Blackberrys go off with messages about the problem on Managers hip at many levels of corp. including local service manager.

eaglegreen48

Totally ridiculous! What dealer is this? This must be a game to see if you will back down. Call Acura and while you're on hold, get a list of potential lawyers. When they pick up tell them this dealer has you thinking about taking legal action, but would rather resolve it through them. It's always a game with the dealers to try to stick it to you.

Soccer_playa1579

i smelll a law suit coming =)

special-ed

Hey guys - man thanks for the support! This forum is probably the only reason I would consider getting another acura but I guess all dealers are the same especially when it comes to fixes under warranty.

Yeah, checked the warranty and they want all records of maintenance. Right now I only have faxed over mntc done at any acura dealerships so have to go back through and get the rest of the other receipts out so filling in the gaps shouldn't be an issue just gotta dig through the last 4 years of receipts sitting in my closet. Thank gawd I save every damn receipt for tax write-offs.

I'm going to take the advice of calling that Acura Corporate number and at least start to get a case opened and make a call to the Service Manager.

With regards to the O2 sensor on the integra, it's harder to compare because I know the OBD was setup differently prior to 1999 I think. Like you said, there may have been something wrong with that piston before the 02 sensor failed but I guess at this point, we'll probably never know because of time/money needed for them to figure out. Probably cost them more than 4k to do that.

Anyway, thanks for the compliment fizzle. I still browse alot just to see how other's cars are coming along. Lookin' good man! I just post now when there's issues so hopefully someone else on here can benefit if they have the same problem.

Thanks guys! Feeling much better about the situation with your input!

KJSmitty

Just curious Special-Ed,
Did you have any written documentation that you did your own oil changes, like filling in the owners manual with specifics etc. - with signature/date?

This is definitely BS

special-ed

Yes and no. Luckily I have a good buddy who is the service manager over at one of the toyota dealerships out here who just so happens to be my personal mechanic and does all of my oil changes/routine mntc work complete with documented paperwork

Wish me luck. But yeah, you guys that have extended warranties, make sure to keep all your damn receipts!

special-ed

Yeah, the service rep when I brought in the car and after they did the initial inspections was saying...."yeah, I see you've got your car modified out especially with that air intake there...blah, blah, blah". I'm like, dude you gotta be f'in kidding me man. What does the air intake have anything to do with the O2 sensor failing. My gawd....these guys are idiots.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Are you blowing a lot of blue smoke out of the tailpipe? It's hard to imagine you being able to drive it home with a fried piston and it not be blowing by a lot of oil or making a lot of noise if it actually broke apart. Did they actually specify what 'blown' is?

I can see it running badly because of the o2 sensor, but a piston blown? If it were compensating, then it would have filled all the cylinders and potentially affected all of the pistons, wouldn't it?

I always wondered about that type of warranty claim when you do your own service. I bent over and took it on my Honda by getting service at the dealer but I don't have the extended warranty and it's been fine up to 50K, it's out of warranty do I do it myself.

I have done all the maint on my TL because the location is a hassle to get to.

KJSmitty

I believe manufacturers overall are getting progressively pickyer and will in general look at each issue and determine if they are at fault. Way more than in the past!

Acura however, they are by far the worst that I have seen regarding near fraudulent statements in order to to prevent Acura corporate from paying warranty claims. Obviously, I am speaking only of personal as well as close friends/family and what I read on the all knowing, all encompassing Internet... :-) Seriously however, in my mind/circle,, Acura has a very bad reputation for service and customer support. I don't call them the Warranty Nazi's for nothing....

special-ed

I didn't see any blue smoke but did notice alot more exhaust smoke coming out with the car parked. Speaking with the service manager he mentioned the #1 cyclinder had zero air compression and if I remember correctly, mentioned something along the lines of the piston slamming into the valve.

I like to do alot of the easy bolt-on mods, but when it comes to the engine internals and understanding exactly how everything works (for example whether or not all cyclinders get filled....), that stuff right now is beyond me.

Either case, if they for some reason don't cover it, looks like I'm going to jump in and do the 3.5L conversion or just buy a used 04 engine and do an engine swap.

T Ho

You can't blow a piston from running too rich. I don't believe this has ever happened in the history of the internal combustion engine.

Seriously, though- a too-rich condition would be visible outside the engine due to visible soot buildup at the exhaust, and lots of steam coming out of the pipes at idle. Additionally, the characteristic hydrocarbon smell would be present. You might also smell a weird sweet egg smell from the cats working overtime and overheating from the extra fuel.

Inside the engine, the worst case for an over-rich condition is piston ring washdown, which can put wear on the walls.

O2 sensor running WAY WAY lean can burn a hole in the piston crown in extreme cases (a lot easier in boosted engines). Lean conditions usually present with surging at idle and light throttle before it gets that extreme, though.

Finally, valve contacting the piston: assuming that the timing belt didn't skip or break, and since your engine still runs, I'm guessing it didn't, the only reasonable explanation for this is over-revving.

Did the dealer actually compression test all cylinders? Or are they just reading the codes, and extrapolating likely scenarios? If you're paying them hard money to diagnose, make them take the time to give you the right answer. If needed, have them put a tech on the job that knows how to troubleshoot, not some wingnut who over-diagnoses everything at the expense of your wallet.

I'd go 2nd opinion. Everyone tries to jump right to the esoteric, without looking for the obvious.

special-ed

Hey T Ho, thanks for chiming in as you definitely know more about combustion engines than I do.

When the sensor light went on, I did notice a weird smell from the exhaust. Keep in mind all this stuff went down (engine light steady on then blinking) in the course of a day and on the highway so maybe the MID wasn't doing it's job.

With regards to the over-revving, I'm not even sure what that is. I can say that typically when I drive in SS mode, I shift before redline/don't hit the rev limiter. If over-revving relates to accelerating too much then yeah, I'm guilty.

But at the end of the day, it's all going to come down to who's gonna pay for this.
If this is something that's gonna drag on for 3 months I would just get an engine swap done at an independent shop cause there's no damn way I'm shelling out 4g's.

I'm not sure how much diagnostic work was done. I'm not paying anything right now since the car's still under warranty but the warranty rep is saying not to dig into the engine yet until I turn in all of the receipts and they give the ok. At that point, if the ok is given, service dept will ahead and open up the engine. Service rep at this point is telling me we'll know what will be covered which seems like more BS to me.

What's the point of opening up the engine if they're telling me that everything might not be covered. At that point, I'm at their mercy cause the engine's in pieces.

T Ho

I would guess that an engine swap would cost at least 4g's, considering parts and labor.

Make them explain to you exactly what they think is wrong with the car, and how they came to that conclusion. Take a car buddy with you if you need someone who "speaks" that language. Hell, bring the diagnosis here- someone can dig through it.

Rough running/engine light/O2 issues is often as simple as a stuck injector. Clean or replace- problem solved.

Over-revving= running the engine beyond redline, BTW. If you've dogged (lots of full throttle/6000+ RPM shifts daily, etc) the car for four years, yeah, you could have big engine problems.

INSPIRE 32V

iTrader: (1)

so even with extended warranty the stealerships try to rape people, what has this world come to.

rkphillips

Is this an Acura Extended Warranty or an independent company? My understanding is the independent companies both pay higher commission for contracts (incentive for dealers to sell this product instead of Honda contract) and will fight harder against paying claims.

pokin

Same question here - Acura Care extended plan?

eaglegreen48

I concur

SouthernBoy

Honda builds interference engines which is rather ridiculous since the technology to bypass this problem is more than 50 years old (cutting valve reliefs into the piston tops).

A piston slamming a valve is generally caused by just a few things. Broken timing belt. Severly damaged connecting rod/wrist pin (or cracked piston skirt). Or a bent, broken, out of adjustment, or "slipped" cam follower. Want to bet the problem could possibly be the last group of things relating to a valve?

geekybiker

FWIW what do service records have to do with anything? IIRC the language in the warrenty reads "should" instead of "must" meaning that any maintence is really an option, not a requirement to maintain warrenty. Of course the extended contract could be different.

06 Acura TL

over revving can also float the valves and bend them. my brother did that to his accord gong from 5th to 2nd by mistake on his v6 6mt

special-ed

Hey guys, man good input here. Especially you guys that are really knowledgeable on this stuff. I'm printing this whole thread out and highlighting the scenarios that you guys are pointing out.

Looking at the service agreement, it states on bottom that "claims administration by FIRST EXTENDED SERVICE CORPORATION" based in Dallas, TX. So it's possible each dealership probably has their own arrangements/relationships with 3rd parties for these extensions. This extended warranty was purchased with the car at the time of sale from the dealership so I assumed it was an "Acura" extended warranty at that time. This was the first new car I had ever purchased so I was definitely green to the whole process.

I'm getting all my ducks in a row right now and will fax over the rest of the receipts to the warranty/claims rep this afternoon then will see how they respond from there.

If this stuff doesn't get covered, I already arranged to steal my parents' old ass 1980 300D mercedes to hold me over. 5-cylinder Diesel madness here we come!

special-ed

Good point but thing is this is a 5AT. There's no way the electronics of the car would allow me to drop into a lower gear like that. So at least we can exclude that scenario.

special-ed

According to this contract, under Maintenance Responsibilities it states:
"Mntc records from the date of sale supported by receipts indicating dates, mileage, and services performed must be kept by the purchaser or subsequent owner of this extended service agreement and made available to the selling dealer or repair facility upon request"

So let this be a lesson to all who have the extended warranty, keep records/receipts of everything. Keep a log - it'll make things easier.

special-ed

Thanks SB for chiming in. I'll have to refer to my Acura mntc service manual to see if during one of the major services, like at 60k for example, if the cam follower is something they should have checked on.

I can also see the possibility of a damaged rod/wrist pin but not sure what would cause that - normal wear & tear?

For a broken timing belt, would the car still be able to run?

mrproul

broken timing belt the motor would not work at all. it would sound like it is starting but will never start. did you notice a loud poping sound from the engine bay prior to the motor dying. my integra threw a main bearing and the motor still drove on 3 cylinders but died if i didn't have the pedal to the metal. i deffenatly want to know what the stealership says.

good luck,

mrproul

THTL

iTrader: (2)

may i ask how many miles is on your odometer reading.

special-ed

Just over 88k miles

THTL

iTrader: (2)

You got all the maintenance works done according to the manual right but just NOT at an Acura dealer.

special-ed

yes but mix and match of acura dealer service and outside service

01tl4tl

It doesnt matter where it was done as long as you have a RECEIPT
Can you get an oil sample from your car and send to blackstone labs?

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Ed...

Common sense applied here:

Lack of an oil change would not cause an 02 sensor to fail, and thus create a lean scenario to burn a hole in a piston.

What "maintenece" and requisite documentation is lacking that would have caused this failure? Nothing. Oil changes? Belts? "Inspection"? various Fluids? NOT doing any of those would NOT create this problem. This clearly a defect.

Lack of oil would cause a siezed engine... period. The failure you've expereinced is CLEARLY not due to lack of maintenence, so that shouldn't even be a consideration.

I am curious though, how a failed o2 sensor didn't signal a CEL. You haven't been driving around with a CEL have you?

Case closed. Pay up f$ckers.

onsknth

Definitely a problem before and FWIW - I've never seen a hole in a piston due to being too rich, the extra fuel actually cools the piston.