TampaRLX-SH

Is it me or do the OEM Michelins slip easily on wet roads with a moderate throttle launch? The SH does launch more aggressively than my former RL, which was linear in acceleration but not as assertive in launch. On wet roads, anything above 1/2 throttle launch causes tire traction loss (and subsequently the SHAWD,and VSA joining the party). I would expect that if I was stomping the pedal, but I never broke traction in the RL the way I do in the SH. Does anyone else experience this? Especially those who drove and RL beforehand.

I keep the tires at 36PSI, which is on the firm side. Is it the low rolling resistance Michelins? Is it the additional torque (and instant torque) of the e-motors? Is it the RWD launch? Is it my brain subliminally finding a reason to replace the Michelins? Have I succumbed to the power this car has?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Acura always puts on weak tires from the factory.
just take a look at the NSX. come's with continentals.....

George Knighton

It's not just you. Others have said this.

Honda's decisions with rubber are complicated. They'll even get a manufacturer to design an item a particular way, an item that is labelled exactly as an item would be labelled at Tire Rack or anywhere else, but it's not the same compound as the (evidently) same rubber bought retail.

Unless you buy the tire from Honda, the "same" tire mightn't really be the same at all.

The final decision about OEM rubber involves odd and sometimes subjective ideas about how a particular compound "feels," and sometimes regardless of whether it's going to stick to the road better. They might very well sacrifice adhesion to somebody's idea of "feel," so long as the vehicle continues to meet internal standards, including safety standards that nobody seems to be able to reveal outside the company.

I remember hearing comments that in the particular case of the KC2, some sacrifices were made to get a compound that helped the onboard electronics make the car appear to be quieter.

For me, I'm willing to accept this because the OEM Honda rubber always gets me up around 65,000 miles before I have to think about them.

In the case of my 2010 TL 6-6, I went out of the way to get a dealer to be sure that the same proprietary compound was installed, instead of looking for something cheaper at Tire Rack or a place like that. The dealer cut quite a discount but they still weren't cheap.

pgeorg

That is one of the reasons i changed my tires to the Michelin Pilot Super Sport, but its a 3 season tire.....anything under 45 degrees F, and the tire loses its stickiness.
Wet traction, wet braking, is at least 40% higher.....still quite as with the OEMs, but they are pretty new (8,000 miles).
I do have a dedicated snow wheel-tire package....

George Knighton

I'll probably do what I did last time and get the dealer to source OEM compound.

Not willing to take a chance. :-)

TampaRLX-SH

Thank You for the details, George. I remember your comments to the specific compounds Honda requires for the factory OEM Michelins. I have to agree the OEM Michelins on my former RL wore like iron. I replaced them @ 33K miles and the tread looked close to new. But they were slipping more as they aged and I also was seeking a quieter, smoother tire. I went with BS Sereneties and had very good results for what I was seeking. The new owner of the car just replaced them, pretty worn with 35K miles on them. They had half the life of the factory OEM Michelins.

Being in Florida, wet traction is important to me. And while I have no where near your driving skill and experience, I am willing to sacrifice performance to gain additional comfort and quietness over long term wear. Wet traction is my one attribute I seek high ratings. I suspect I will change them before next summer. At the moment I have the Continental ExtremeContact DWS, the Pirelli Centurado P7 and under pgeorg's recommendation the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. Oddly, per Tire Rack the OEM Michelins are over $100 more per tire and rated the lowest of the tires I am researching. The Pirellis rate best for my needs - closely followed by the Conti's and Super Sports. I may have a set of VERY low Mileage factory Michelins to ship to you for spares! It would be a shame to simply pay a disposal fee and kiss them goodbye with factory markings still visible on the sidewalls.

Further, I am considering a slightly higher profile tire to reduce blowout risk and achieve better rim protection. I believe Blackbird has done this with the Conti's? (HINT: update please! )

Decisions...Decisions.

Recipe7

Going from the Michelin Primacy's to my Pirelli Cinturato, I have noticed better wet traction, and better traction overall. Accelerating from a stop at half throttle on wet pavement would give me slip on the Primacys, but there was no slip on my Cinturatos. However, they are 255 instead of the stock 245

TampaRLX-SH

^^^ Thank you for the feedback on the Cinturatos, Recipe7. Yours is the first I have located with feedback on the Cinturatos specific to the RLX (and vs. the factory Michelins).

Do you find the CInturatos any smoother or quieter (on coarse roads)? The Michelins are great on smooth roads, but I am a bit disappointed on coarse roads (most of what we have here). Do you notice less tire impact thud? The Tire Rack ratings put them way ahead of the Primacy and even better than the Michelin Super Sport. But understanding how they behave specifically to the RLX is key. And secondly, does the higher profile add to the ride quality? Does it offer better rim protection?

TIA.

pgeorg

^^^
I can tell you that the PSS have made the ride quality much better, meaning they are much softer feeling on the road.....especially concerning the impact thud.
Another tremendous positive is that hydroplaning is almost completely gone, even with some torrential downpours we have had lately. The OEM Michelin's were awful in that respect.
I did stay with the OEM size 245/40/19.
You are more then welcome to drive my SH, if you are up my way....

Recipe7

My observation isn't going to be quite clean cut since I changed out my stock rims with primacys to VMR rims with cinturatos. With that point said, I find the ride to be much better on smooth/acceptable pavement/asphalt, however on rough roads/cracked streets it seems to be the same. My wife and father seem to say it is much better, but I value my opinion more (lol). However, this bias of mine may have to do something with the stock wheels having that resonance technology thingy though, so in my head I just feel the VMR wheels may be taking the comfort out of the ride for that reason.

The ride seems more firm in terms of those pothole type thuds you are taking about. To me it feels like the tires are absorbing more impact rather than letting it go through the cabin in regards to the physical vibration. The rough roads, in general, produce the same noise as the primacys (again, my opinion). Yes, the tire has a wider stance and it is larger in diameter by an inch if I remember correctly. I really can't tell if the larger values provide a better ride. I'd have to make a comparison to a 245/40/19 cinturato tire to be honest.

Since the wheels I am on are 19x9.5 (as opposed to the stock 19x8.5) the 255/40/19 tire is a tad stretched (ideal width is 265). 245/40/19s cinturatos would sit more square on the stock RLX rims (Have a look at my thread with the rims and tires just installed, it will essentially be more square) However, pirellis tend to have a round form and the michelins tend to have a square form. Due to this, and from my research, I find michelins to have more rim protection than pirelli's or continentals; that is, in comparing equal sized tires (245/40/19 across the board)

Overall, I am glad I went with the Cinturatos. There are many options, but I wanted to increase performance, but maintain the comfort of an all season tire. Plus it's rated for like 75k miles or something stupid high, so it should pay off in the long run. As an added note, I have put roughly 7k miles on them already.

TampaRLX-SH

Thank You Recipe7. Your observations and opinions are very helpful.

TampaRLX-SH

Thanks pgeorg! I think tire thus is somewhat inherit to Hondas. My guess is it may be related to double wishbone suspension. Newer Acuras that have McPherson struts do not exhibit this behavior as prominently. I think the tire choice can quell the thud. It really is more a sound issue than ride quality....to me it sounds harsh. I will be taking a serious look at the PSS. I may have to take you up on the test drive offer!

Recipe7

Glad I could shed some!

pgeorg

I would have to agree with your double wishbone suspension setup comments......

You are welcome anytime, Tampa! (snow tires go on between end of October to end of March)

Limelight

I'd be curious to hear of your longer term view of the Pirelli P7 Cinturato Plus'. I'm looking to swap out my OEM Michelins as I had my rear end come out on me recently in a rainstorm while making a fairly slow speed left hand turn which damn near freaked me out. When that happens in a snowstorm you're somewhat expecting it - but I was not expecting it at all this time.

I was looking at the Michelin Super Sport or Pilot Sport tires after reading of several members here really liking them - but was surprised after reading online that their treadlife is horrible. I'd like something that is comfortable, quiet and has good treadlife - since I'm not using the SH on a track or overly aggressive driving. I have my OEM wheels on Conti DWS06 for winters, so my new rubber would be for my summer set.

Limelight

As a sidenote to the above, I swapped my OEM original Michelin rubber from my OEM stock wheels and put the Michelin's on my Rotiforms (I have a set of Continental DWS06's on my stock wheels for my winter set).

I now use the Rotiforms/stock Michelins on my SH as my summer set, so the rubber has roughly 60,000km of use on them - so I suspect they are due to be changed, which is why I lost traction in the rain....

RLX-Sport Hybrid

My experience with the Conti DSW06 tires has been slowly degrading over time. As of today I am at 5/32nd of tread depth and they are starting to get a little noisy. I have 26,000 miles on them so far, you can see that they are not providing the lifespan as expected. Although the traction is great in all ways and conditions, I am not going to replace them with the same tire/brand next time. As you may remember I had to prematurely replace my OEM tires because of a vandalism tire slashing problem otherwise I suspect I would still be running the factory set up even now. My next tire will be the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ in the size 255/40/19 as I have now. I will do this later in the summer or fall depending on wear and how annoyed I am at the noise they are making. I can even feel at low speeds a slight vibration of the tire tread through the steering wheel now.

Limelight

Based on the reviews I've read, the common theme for the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ and Michelin Super Sport is they have horrible tread life - but they are excellent all other things considered.

Although the A/S 3+ is still high on my list (and the A/S 3 as well, which is apparently the same tire but with less winter capabilities) - I think I'm leaning towards the Pirelli P7 Cinturato's because of their better tread life. Most new tires feel great when new, but degrade over time. How quickly is the key to a good tire...

RLX-Sport Hybrid

The Pirelli P7 Cinturato looks to be a V rated tire. Is that ok to use when the factory uses a W or Z rated tire? I assume the lower speed rating provides a softer sidewall too, right? Might we expect more potential rim damage on an equivalent pothole over a tire with a W or Z rating or am I connecting sidewall stiffness and overall construction with the speed rating inappropriately?

vetdude

The OEM Michelin MX4 Primacy's that came on our 2013 RDX AWD Tech were so good, especially in the wet and snow, that we purchased the same tires when we needed to replace them at around 45,000 miles.

George Knighton

In the end I did indeed go with the OEM tires as replacements, after talking to a Honda representative about the relative merits of the OEM Primacy v. Pilot Sport.

George Knighton

They talked me out of the Pilot Sport by standing firm on the position that you want the KC2 to be able to slide in some situations, to use greater slip angles on all four corners because of the relatively aggressive use of torque vectoring that might make it less desirable if the tires gripped in a situation where the car is supposed to use the wider slip angles to be sure you understand where you're going with what you're doing.

I am sure they were exaggerating, but having been on the track for so many years, it was an argument that I understood and bought into.

An exaggerated explanation of what they are talking about: It is one of the banes of existence of an instructor to walk up to a car and realize that your student has a stock suspension and R compound or other aggressively gripping tires.

It's a bad idea.

Again, I'm sure they were exaggerating for effect, but I could buy into it.

They were too expensive, even with a discount, but I'll look forward to long tread life and a good compromise of performance across all weather conditions. :-)

Bulldog2

I know I've commented on this previously, but I'll give an update:

First 10,000 miles with OEMs the backend got loose at least 10 times under very mild driving with wet streets.

Next 10,000 miles with new A/S 3+ not one experience of the backend getting loose.

I just don't understand what explanation can make the OEMs sound better for normal drivers....

Limelight

^^ What he said!

George Knighton

This morning was 30 degrees, with snow and freezing rain.

That's all I'm going to say about that. :-)

Bulldog2

George, I have mega-respect for you and believe your experience. But if you can, for a minute, believe ours, is it possible there may have been a production run of OEMs that had a chemistry error (or something like that), to make the compound different?...and that the folks that do not experience this were fortunate enough not to be blessed with the bad production run?
If it was just me, I'd willingly say that it was my driving. But COASTING through turns at very modest speeds by multiple folks and having the slippage occur says something is wrong...either the tires (again, same conditions, but different results with new A/S) or the programming of the hybrid system. And I know the programming on my 2016 has not been changed since the new tires were installed.
As a mechanical engineer with 40 years of experience, not knowing true cause bothers me....

BTW, I really like this car, but I was one more slippage experience away from dumping it when I got the new tires. (And I'm really frugal, not wanting to eat a bunch of depreciation before my planned 10 year cycle of replacing cars comes due!)

Thanks for your continued great insight and help!

KeithL

I have had the Michelin AS/3+ and the Conti DSW06 and I have gotten the same life out of both. The Michelin were a bit quieter, but substantially more money. For that reason I have stuck with Conti DSW 06 since I get to 4/32 in 17K regardless of what UHP tire I use. At least this way I am saving money.

KeithL

Car manufacturers are picking tires for the average driver as well as to get best ride comfort, quietness and MPGs. The Michelin's on my wife's 16 RDX were decent until we put on a nice set of Contis that were quieter, better handling in both dry and wet and provided a better overall ride.