neuronbob

Wen super busy this week but wanted to share a new symptom. This only happens in extreme cold, and only when the transmission is still cold.

When I release the brake pedal to begin acceleration, I feel a vibration as the transmission goes into gear. It's almost as if it's a manual transmission (it's a DCT, ya, so it's close to that anyway) is lugging. Then I press the accelerator and the vibration goes away. Once the transmission is warmed up, it no longer occurs. I suspect the transmission is just cold and needs a warmup in the only way it can happen: with movement.

Anyone else experience this in extremely cold (less than 20 deg F) weather? Any other ideas? When I take my car in for the (long delayed) splash guard install and headlight recall, I plan to mention this to the service writer.

Seriously wishing I were back in San Diego.

neuronbob

Looks like "no". I'll keep an eye on it.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I have it too. It was 5 degrees this morning and I had the same thing for about the first 10 feet of movement. I have about 400 miles on the car for context.

I called the dealer and the factory rep happened to be there. He said that it takes a minute for the fluid to circulate at start up in the transmission. He recommended starting the car and sitting for 60 seconds before engaging the transmission, if it is below 30 degrees. I told him about the "fix" I discovered with the grommets in the doors regarding the wind noise, and he said he would tell the engineers. Also I asked him about some of the complaints I have read on the suspension noises, and he said that because the suspension is entirely different from the FWD RLX, with completely unique geometry, the bushings give the impression behind the wheel that something is loose when in fact it is simply the tightness of the suspension components. I don't think he was kidding me because he said that it is the same experience the engineers are seeing with the new NSX. Apparently the suspension is very similiar between the two cars. He also commented that the hp/tq ratings are conservative for insurance purposes. I could not pin him down to the "real" numbers, but he reiterated that they are conservative, especially the torque numbers. He hinted that if the NSX retains the same power train as the RLX Sport Hybrid, we can take the quoted numbers for the NSX and apply them to the RLX Sport Hybrid. He said they are still evaluating different power train combinations including using a 3.0 liter V6 with turbo(s) including the electric components. That peaked my interest as I never heard that before, but he moved on to other comments very quickly almost like he said something he was not supposed to.

neuronbob

A. Thanks for the confirmation on the vibration. For the record, I usually let the car run for 30-60 seconds before taking off when it's below 20 degrees F already. I do that for all my cars. Glad to read it's just warm-up issues.

B. The new stuff about the NSX: I appreciate reading this, but I thought we were going to hear about the production model on the 12th. They can't still be working on the basics of the propulsion system at this late juncture. NSX with a NA 3.5 liter V6 and three electric engines would be profoundly disappointing unless it's been tuned for even better performance than the RLX. Translating the quoted numbers between a presumed NA V6 and our RLX seems flattering but unrealistic. We'll know shortly, I guess.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I agree completely with (B.). I was just repeating the details of a conversation I was not planning on having. I have no knowledge about the validity of the rep's comments. I can only take him at his word. I guess we will see eventually.

neuronbob

Sorry if it looked like I was jumping on you, I wasn't. it just looked like the guy you spoke with was simply purposely spreading misinformation ahead of launch.

There's even a small fight on the Temple of VTEC right now over whether a usual semi-trusted source there is correct in the small details he releases about the NSX.

I have to say, there is lots of consternation in Honda-World about the NSX.

Sorry to drag my own thread off course!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

No worries at all. I don't claim to have any credible knowledge of anything at all. I am interested in hearing what others have to say as well as contributing what ever I learn along the way. I have enjoyed the exchanges on this forum thus far. I started the car again this morning and the vibration we both have noted was present again for what amounted to 2-3 seconds I think. That was also after I warmed up the car for 60 seconds, so it may just be something we need to get used to? Granted it was 4 degrees at the time.

holografique

While not the Hybrid, I too experience this "vibration" on my P-AWS RLX, but in a different manner. While it does happen only when the car is still "waking" up from its nightly slumber, I experience it specifically when putting the transmission in reverse for the first time after a cold evening of sitting in the garage. It is also accompanied with a somewhat jerky bump in the engine RPM before settling into reverse.

If I let the car fully "warm up" (usually 5-10min) the effect is less drastic and barely noticeable.

My gut says I'd probably see it the same was as you guys, My first move early in the morning just happens to be backing out of the garage versus moving into drive and pulling away.

And thanks for sharing the deets on the suspension comments. Just further confirmation that its not just some of us being "picky". I think its clear there is a "problem" that was not likely intended in the original design. Interesting to see they are seeing the same issue in the NSX. Personally I think it comes down to them making the new cars soo light in order to get more "power" out of the existing engines without having to increase hp, that it's made the suspension react in a way that makes the car feel like it will literally jump off the road at the slightest bumps. I say this because its happened to me in certain conditions. When hitting hard bumps at certain speeds, the car literally "jumps". There is one specific place on my drive to work that does this where there are successive bumps I hit at about 40mph in the course of a turn and I feel the backend of the car literally jump off the road and skip back into course, causing me to quickly correct course in steering to stay in my lane. Imagine "fish-tailing" but with the backend slightly in the air off the ground. It's weird, and happens every time I hit that spot in the road. Almost kinda fun (like skipping a dirt bike), but clearly not how a car should react in that situation.

George Knighton

Did you ever take a picture of what you were talking about?

Not quite sure what he was talking about there. Judging from another comment he made, which I'll quote, perhaps he is not completely in touch.

To a great extent. If you saw a suspension assembly, you would recognize it.

I think at this point he was gassing up your head. :-) There's a pretty big HP difference between the RLX Sport Hybrid and the NSX Sport Hybrid.

George Knighton

Are you sure? :-)

I hate to sound like a shill for Honda, but if you're enjoying it (as you said) and it's completely controllable (as you said), what's wrong with giving you this kind of enthusiastic feel?

I know exactly what you mean. There's more than a few bumpy curves that I drive on a day to day basis, and it takes some confidence in the car to know that it is under control.

Both KC1 and KC2 behave the same way on the curves I'm talking about.

George Knighton

The J Motor is on or off when this happens?

neuronbob

Always on.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

It is very possible, but again I was just relaying his comments to me. One thing I considered is if they are targeting a 3500 lbs or less sports car with the same power train, only set up in reverse, taking 800 lbs out of the mix would create an awesome power to weight ratio. So maybe it is the same drive train? Again I am totally guessing. It does not matter either way.

On the instant gas mileage screen I got 44.5 mpg going one way and 29.2 mpg going the other way while running an errand this morning.

George Knighton

It's not. :-)

The NSX Sport Hybrid has twin turbo and twin cam head.

The production version is being seen in the USA this weekend.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Looking forward to seeing it. It will be great no matter what it is.

Zoommer

Yes....I wait for blue light to disappear. I think this is normal.

Zoommer

I think it does have to do with warm-up. I have this in my other non Honda hybrid as well.

neuronbob

Cool beans. I have filed this in my "common experience" memory.

BTW, even cold, the DCT's shifts are FAST, and they seem faster after warmup.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Two things:

I just discovered we have quad exhaust outlets. Too bad they are hidden.

I have the grommet pictures uploaded to Flicker, but can't figure out how to include them on this forum. Can someone point me in the right direction as to the instructions? Thank you.

neuronbob

[IMG] URL of image [/IMG] Or just post the link to your Flickr stream. Thanks for doing this!

Zoommer

Listen to the exhaust sound. It is a deep throaty sound that conveys power. It is too bad the sound is so muffled in the car. I drove with sun roof and all windows down in sports mode and this engine screams!!!!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

When it is not 1000 degrees below zero I will absolutely do that. It is too freaking cold right now. I will strap my GoPro to the back of the car next week and try to get a sound recording to post.

George Knighton

I paid particular attention this morning, and I do *not* feel anything unusual. I start the car when I get into it, and then spend a few seconds attaching the iPhone and putting on the belt.

It's funny you're mentioning this, though.

One of the little bugs that they had to work out before they were comfortable releasing the vehicle into the States was a long delay between the time you put the car into reverse and gave some throttle, and the time the car actually moved.

Because of the delay, people were tending to give more gas than necessary, and the car would lunge or lurch rearward. They were afraid it would cause a fender bender in a parking lot, so they went to work getting rid of that phenomenon.

holografique

You're right, I guess I've just never experienced anything like that in a car before, so while it is it's somewhat fun and controllable, it is ultimately somewhat awkward. At least I never experienced anything like that in my 3G TL, and that is the foundation for many of my comparisons up until recently with the TLX loaner. Which btw did NOT exhibit that same behaviour on the same segment road I mentioned above.

George Knighton

I want to be sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

In the same corner, you drove the 3G TL the same way at the same speed and it did not give you the same whoops-squat polar moment as the suspension settled?

The TLX that did not behave this way, was it a P-AWS car or an SH-AWD car?

I appreciate your taking the time to answer. I know you don't really have to.

:-)

My 4G TL 6-6 SH-AWD behaved almost exactly the way the Sport Hybrid and RLX P-AWS behave on a particular corner on Purcell Rd that I'm thinking about. It is a hard right with a lot of bumps in it and it can be a challenge both to a car and to your confidence in a car.

If you keep the power on or apply more power, the cars sort of say "whoops-what are you doing?-aim-squat-vroom."

It happens very quickly, but it is perceivable.



.

Zoommer

Suspension design requires many compromises. To make the car float you will have to do very little other than have springs and urethane bushings and maybe some shock absorbers. To make the car stick my to the road and give it maneuverability/control you will need a very rigid chassis. Then focus on dampers so to model the jounce, rebound, design of shocks, geometry, and any particular speciality such as the SACHS ASD applications within the shock absorbers. In brief, in my opinion, what you are experiencing is the first generation of Honda design to provide a car that sticks to the road (directly linked to firmness of ride), control of power in front wheel drive design (front heavy), transfer of weight/power/tq in a controlled manner (sh-awd with rear motors), and finally application of power in a variety of conditions. What is missing in this car is the ability to adapt the suspension based on the driver needs rather than a design compromise. Having driven Aston Martins (make you loose you dental fillings), Porsche (infinite adjustments but firm ride and feel every pebbles), Jags (floaty to firm), etc...Honda will get there if they keep focusing on sports cars. Back in F1, coming out with NSX, and now a first gen Sports Hybrid, will allow them to get this right.

I am really curious about but he Mugen adaptive suspension that will be available for this car. If it fixes the issue then we will all know that the chassis and design is good but we need a suspension that can be tuned to individual taste rather than a universal compromise.

George Knighton

Yes! :-)

The ZDX had an "IDS" suspension with magnetics, and I'd have thought we'd have seen more of that by now. There must be something in the owner reports that made them decide it was unfavorable.

Acura and American Honda have been asking some owners how we feel about air suspensions. I'm not enthusiastic about that because it seems to me that the Mercedes suspension has a small but perceivable delay in its adaptation of an attitude after the driver makes an input.

They seemed interested in ride height, load adjustment/firming up, and sporting pretense. I don't see air suspensions as a solution to all of that, but it's possible I'm in the minority and an oddball case.

The solution that they gave us for the RLX (both KC1 and KC2) is the multi-rate dampers. It's not clear to me if some of you have decided that it's a bad idea, or a bad execution of a good idea.

I think mine's okay, but at 5000 miles perhaps I don't have enough miles on mine for it to start making clunking noises. :-) I'd prefer magnetic fluid that adjusts to a Sport and Sport-Plus setting to an air bag suspension solution.

Don't get too excited. From Mugen's past I'd say it's going to involve adaptive dampers but with different rates. Magen's long term relationship with Honda-Showa might mean it's a different brand of adaptive dampers, which might be a good thing.

Zoommer

At 2400 miles=no issues so far.

MRD=I do not believe it is a bad idea but requires a 2nd Gen refinement.

Tech= I have no preference on air vs magnetic vs multi-rate vs hydraulic. I do have a preference for user customization and infinite adjustment. The technology is there and it is a matter of including it in the design.

Lexus is completely overhauling its designs including "sportiness". Infiniti is doing the same. Mazda has always focused on sportiness. Subaru is also focusing on "commoditizing" the safety and driveability technologies. As far as the EU cars are concerned they have always included cutting edge technologies.

It is for Honda to decide whether they want to go back to the roots of the RSX, Prelude, S2000, NSX, Indy, F1, etc....They know how to do it=can they get their brand definition together and come out with all of the elements of design, technology, reliability, and driveability working in synch?

Don't know but hoping for it....as a consumer competition is good.