sonyfever

I finally tried Hondata tunes. The ECU calibration ID is A880 as of 11/2019. I will refrain from mentioning things unrelated to the powertrain, since I am pretty lost about whether what I felt were placebo effects or not.

Stage 2

I only tried this briefly. The dyno numbers look like this is the one to get. With about 10-15% mid range torque increase, it should make the car hella fun to drive. However, I feel the throttle response is a little aggressive, not far off from stock Sport+. The tranissiom also seems to keep rpm at above 1.5k more than I remember in stock form. This is really a double-edge sword, because while engine response might be better, noise increases and the overall powertrain experience is less smooth.

I did not really try the power, because I felt the powertrain response deviates from stock too much. I want quicker response and slightly more power delivered, but in stock manner. My other car has custom-tuned K24, so I know how K engine responds to tuning. With stage 2, I sense more micro vibration than I was comfortable with on large throttle input. I quickly decided to switch to Stage 1.

Stage 1

This works well in Sport mode. The powertrain still feels like stock, but is more responsive and has a bit more power. The difference is not huge, but really enhances the sportiness of the car. In terms of lag, I think turbo lag in rolling situation is mitigated a little because the engine is more ready to build boost. The driving experience is enhanced with more fludity, and I feel I am in the meaty torque band more than before. I do feel some changes in transmission response, but they are minor and are overwhelmed by the positive experience.

In Comfort mode, the tune generally works well. But there are moments I feel the transmission downshifts more abruptly than before, as if th rpm is too high when the clutch engages. Strangely I don't sense this behavior in Sport mode.

Overall I would say stage 2 moves Sport to Sport 0.5+, and Comfort to near-Sport. Stage 1 is like adding 5-10% of the original flavors. But I feel stage 2 loses a little daily smoothness to achieve the higher gain. I cant help wondering how KTuner stage 2 (which is said to be stage 3 in Hondata scale) behaves, and would advise cautious on that tune.

The problem I see with these tunes are, the powertrain control is too complex these days. Transmission seems to have a brain of its own that is affected by engine tunes, so transmission response seems to get in the way of tuning more than in old days. Maybe the transmission needs time to re-adjust to the new throttle mapping?

wavshrdr

Interesting reading, thanks for your thoughts. I found the Ktuner to be very much like the stock but a little snappier but not overly sensitive and more goodness almost everywhere. Of course the biggest gains are in the mid-range. I would say when driving it, it felt like someone just shoved a 3.0 liter motor under the hood. It isn't fussy at all and pulls well but with a very "torquey" character. Sounds like the Hondata is tuned a bit edgier but maybe not any faster.

sonyfever

I would say it's me being picky about maintiaining stock-like smoothness, rather than Hondata stage 2 tune being edgy. I would probably criticize KTuner stage 2 more, because I think KTuner changed ignition timing to achieve the large gain (correct me if I am wrong).

wavshrdr

I totally understand you about being picky but count me in that camp as well. I still race motorcycles and the throttle to ECU mapping can either make a bike impossible to ride smoothly and at the limits or almost impossible.

I think that is why impressed me when I drove the Ktuned car was generally how smooth it was to drive in any mode. At WOT the peak acceleration was virtually the same regardless of dynamic mode based on my testing. Generally, the throttle response was very linear, give it about 20% more throttle and what you received was very proportional.

f they have done something with timing (didn't check) they were pretty conservative as when I checked the logs I think in ll the runs there were no knocks detected. Personally I like more advance timing were possible (other than the risk of knock if too extreme) as it usually improves fuel economy. That can also help with covering up for low boost until the turbo spools up, then dial back the ignition advance.

I would call the Ktuner a "street car" tune and not a "race car" tune in the sense that they wanted to give very solid power gains without sacrificing drivability. If were to do a tune to my car, based on my experience, and what is available at this point, it is the tune I'd go with. I've probably driven the tuned one near me for about 300 miles. I'll have a chance to swap RDX's for the weekend as he needs to tow something and I have a trailer hitch on mine. If he doesnt mind I'll do some more runs now that the weather is in the 70's or cooler here. My RDX has really perked up since the summer temps.

sonyfever

First I need to correct myself, Hondata tune does adjust timing for both stage 1 and 2 through changing the knock limit tables. Somehow I thought those were for knock sensitivity - I am rusty.

I wish I had access to KTuner-flashed RDX nearby to compare, but in my head I do not see how they can be vastly different. I thought about changing my tone after first draft, because at least for stage 1 it is something I can happily recommend to everyone. Maybe I don't go WOT often enough to reap the biggest reward, or maybe I was a bit deflated because I felt I lost the tighter steering feedback brought by 19-022 TSB.

But that is another story, or mystery, that I will not be able to find out, because there is no way restore the ECU to the pre-flash A86 version, at least not from FlashPro.

wavshrdr

I understand where you are coming from. For me on a street car, drivability is paramount. I don't want some cantankerous, finicky tune when I am taking my child to daycare. That is what really impressed me about the stg 2 Ktuner is you don't need to push it hard to enjoy it. It has mountains of torque even at 2k rpm. The best analogy is like comparing a small block motor vs a big block motor. Normally to make the small block go (compare to the big block) you need more revs. The big block thanks to its displacement has a lot more TQ at low rpms.

With the stg 2 Ktuner you just surf the waves of torque. My biggest wish is there was more pull up near redline but I think we might be approaching the limits of everything else. I must admit I am speed junkie so it isn't surprising that I want more. It is just that it is pulling so nicely and then about 5500 it starts to sign off but never down to the levels of stock. If I could defeat whatever is limiting full power (assuming a tranny nanny) I would install the stg 2 Ktuner in flash (pun intended). It really makes the RDX into what I thought it should have been from the start. Based on my testing, without the tranny nanny, and interpolating the data, it would be a high 5 second 0-60 car and probably around 13.8 in the 1/4.

sonyfever

How do you feel about transmission response on the KTuner RDX? Power is fine on Hondata tunes, it is just the higher-frquency noise for stage 2 and the transmission response in stage 1/2 that leave me... confused.

When I had my K24 tuned, the most powerful version had a high-pitch noise mixed in the engine noise at WOT. My tuner assured me that was fine, and the knock counts were reasonable. I am pretty sure the higher-freqiency noise on Hondata stage 2 is not an issue, but since this is a non-performance SUV, I do not feel the added performance is worth it. In fact, I feel the extra power in boost sort of exaggerates the difference between boost and NA, and renders the transmission into boost slower.

In terms of transmission response in stage 1, so far I am able to reproduce a downshift lag - slow the car to 10-15mpg, then apply larger throttle input, the transmission would downshift one gear to move rpm to 1.5-2k, then downshift another gear to move rpm to 2-2.5k. The second downshift seems unnecessarily to me. I don't recall this behavior post-TSB/pre-flash, but then I probably need to try out stock A88 to reset my baseline, since I no longer know what is the norm with three different responses just from SW changes.

In my imgaination, I feel A86 is crisp and golden, A87 (if that is really what came with my car) is mushy, and A88 tuned is close to A86 but not quite there. What is the ECU version on your RDX?

sonyfever

Running stage 1 tune for a while, I now know why I was not 100% warmed up to the tune(s) initially. I feel with the tune, turbo is made more apparent in the driving experience. Once I accepted the fact, I was able to adjust my driving to be more refined on throttle when I drive casually, and more assured when I want power. This way I get both powertrain smoothness and the increased power from the tune like 99% of time.

sonyfever

Long story short: TPS reset procedure improved shift quality.

Some updates on the transmission annoyances that I mentioned. Just to recap, after flashing to stage 1, I felt the transmission was not as smooth as stock when shifting gears. The shift shock was especially noticeable from 1-2, when I tipped in more throttle in the middle of 1st gear. There was sometimes a kick during upshift, and I always felt the kick was a result of the engine and transmission somehow not in sync in terms of rotation speed.

The other day, I learned about the throttle position sensor reset procedure, and figured why not give it a try since the engine and transmission seemed to not talk well to each other during upshift. The procedure I applied was:

1. Depress the throttle pedal all the way in, when ignition/accessory are off. Then, turn on the car to ignition mode.
2. Keep WOT until the check engine light disappears. It took about 15-20 seconds.
3. Power down the car to off state.
4. Press brake pedal and start the car normally by pressing the engine-on button.
5. Procedure is completed, though exactly what it resets I am not too sure......And the procedure magically resolved the shift shock issue. The powertrain felt smooth as it should be. The change is similar to what I felt when I went from out-of-factory stock to EBB SW updated stock. So I assume there is something finicky about the electronics on this car.

The newly-found smoothness gave me a clearer view to assess the stage-1 changes, besides the apprant mid-range power increase:
1. Engine is more readily.... "ready-to-go". Possibly die to faster turbo spool-up.
2. I have learned that the 10AT would slip to spool up turbo faster if needed at low speed. I feel the engine does that more than in stock form.

I will probably give stage-2 another try.

Dereileak

so is that the feeling when your giving it gas and it’s speeding up and it doesn’t feel like the torque converter has locked up, it feels like the pull is of a fluid coupling for a short period before it shifts and locks up??

sonyfever

Similar to what you described, to be honest I was not bothered by the issue enough to look deeply into the details.

FYI, did not mention in the update, but the engine braking when the car is rolling off throttle also reduces. Not to say the procedure is all shiny, because I still can trigger shift shock by adding enough amount of throttle input before an upshift, but the shock is never as much and as consistent as pre-TPS-reset.

Dereileak

so when it slips, this is on purpose? It’s like the engine rpm doesn’t go up consistently with the speed for a little bit, my guess is the torque converter is not locked up

sonyfever

I don't know for sure, so take my observation with a grain of salt. I think the slipping occurs only in 2nd gear, when engine is maybe below 1.5k rpm, and only with decent amount of sudden throttle input increase in throttle.

I think this slipping is part of the acceleration lag people discuss about elsewhere, but on cars with Hondata/KTuner tunes, the powertrain is more eager to build boost, therefore shorten the delay.

sonyfever

I updated FlashPro to v3.5.3 and gave Stage 2 a try. Guess what, it feels pretty different from the last time I tried. I do not sense much, if any, of the strange tinkling sound like last. Everything feels stock until I open the throttle -

The torque increase is more than I anticipated/remembered, as well as the smoothness of power delivery.

Stage 2 feels like 2x (Stage 1 - stock). The extra dose of torque really brings out the fun character of the car, not only because of the sharper throttle response/acceleration, but also because of more immediate torque vectoring. I still feel the throttle in Stage 2 Sport mode is a little too sensitive - I need to tiptoe on the thottle to drive slowly. But the bigger differentiation between Comfort and Sport modes maybe is better suited to the audience of A-spec.

Another good thing is the steering and turn-in improvement I had from the soft brake pedal TSB are now back in place. So count me as a happy FlashPro returning customer, and needless to say I do not bother going back to Stage 1!

lil12002

i think I asked this before but didn’t get an answer.

will the improved torque and throttle be activated once the dial is turned to sports + mode or are the changes on even while in comfort mode?

sonyfever

Actually Hondata website explains this quite clearly. Stage-1 reflash applies the same map (torque and throttle improvements) for all IDS modes. Stage-2 reflash has Snow and Comfort use Stage-1 map, and Sport and Sport+ use Stage-2 map.

Burger Steak & Eggs

It almost sounds like Hondata noticed that Ktuner had a higher output tune, stage 2 vs stage 2, and then perhaps Hondata did a few tweaks to get them closer to Ktuners performance.

sonyfever

I think it is unlikely that Hondata touched the tunes. Probably just the peculiarity of my car, since it behaved left and right with every firmware update (Stock -> TSB -> (FlashPro 3.4.8) Stage-2 -> Stage-1 -> (FlashPro 3.5.3) Stage-2).

By the way, the ECU calibration ID is still A880 as in 3.4.8.

Cuzz

Hi, SonyFever, sorry I'm just getting to this now, but I have a question.
Where in your steps outlined above do you actually take your foot off the throttle pedal?

Thanks.

Oops, sorry, I just read it again and noticed Step 2 is to keep it down until check engine light goes out. My bad.
Thanks.

Funz51

could you enlighten us on where you found this procedure? And any history with it? Is it in a manual, forum, etc ?

sonyfever

I thought the first version I read about throttle position sensor reset is here, in one of the threads about delay. Someone mentioned he did TPS reset on his VW or Audi and it made a difference. Later I was looking for transmission clutch relearn procedure and found this YouTube


This is definitely not the clutch relearn procedure, nor any kind of transmission reset procedure as described in the video, but felt it was worth a try since I knew I was going to update my FlashPro to the latest version and do a reflash.

Funz51

I think what we are doing is setting the ecu to its default map. All the learning goes away. The result is really good drivability. Maybe the learning function of the ecu is far from perfect and ends up with crappy results. I like this procedure and will continue to use it when I think it’s needed.

Funz51

Here is an example of what we are talking about.
https://www.youcanic.com/wiki/reset-...u-transmission

it actually makes sense.

sonyfever

Thanks, good to know!

Oil Stain

Man I really love this site, such great stuff here. Thanks for the efforts everyone!

Gossleroy

Thats all some really good info, Thanks Sony !!!

sonyfever

Loving this car

With more mileages on Hondata Stage2, I have to admit I fall in love with this car. I used to think this was a sensible car of great value and with a few quirks - I liked it but did not love it.
There are a few reasons, besides the obvious improved power and throttle response:

Improved MPG (When driven economically)
My fuel economy actually improved with Stage-2. Before, even if I tried really hard I barely go above 19mpg in 90% city driving. Now I can easily get above 19mpg if I want to. I estimate the improvement is at least 0.5-1 mpg. The major difference is in 1-3 gears. I think the combination of sharper throttle response and increased NA power in Stage-2 means I can better stay out-of-boost but still speed up the car not too slowly. When I drive economically, the transmission shifts at around 2k rpm in 1st and 2nd gears. Once the car is up to speed, I can control the throttle finely from the clearer throttle response, and basically maximize coasting by reducing unnecessary throttle application.
The downside of driving economically this way is that in 1-3 gears, the power does feel weaker after each upshift, as if driving through a wave. But at least I can choose easily if I want power or fuel economy. Needless to say, any amount of WOT in Stage-2 is an instant mpg killer.

Near-Perfect Dual Personalities (What A-Spec should be from the start)
I really like that Hondata chose to run Stage-1 map in Comfort mode. The bigger contrast between Sport mode (Stage-2) and Comfort mode (Stage-1) makes each mode more distinctive, and thus more useful IMHO. In Comfort mode, the car feels so smooth, but still has decent power when called upon. The only downside I can think of is the slight delay in re-acceleration, but that is kind of a known "character" of this car. In Sport mode, the car responses well to aggressive driving up to around 8/10. Beyond that, the soft front suspension and the poor tire grip start ruining the show. I rarely go to Sport+ mode these days because I feel Sport mode in Stage-2 basically feels like stock Sport+ mode but in the D transmission of stock Sport mode.

However, there are several small downsides for Stage-2 in Sport mode:
1. The rear end is more inclined to move around in WOT when the car goes over lane dots, or probably any uneven surface.
2. When using cruise control, the engine sometimes uses more boost than what I feel is necessary when going over mild incline. The acceleration when ACC matches the leading car can also be more abrupt. I learned to counter this behavior by actively adjusting the cruise speed to slow down the ramping.

As for the well-known re-acceleration delay when the car has slowed down to maybe <20mph before acceleration, I think Stage-2 generally shows improvement. But I also think the key is to prevent the powertrain kicking down to 1st gear in such scenarios. The way to "guide" the powertrain is to not go deep into the throttle quickly, but rather add small throttle for a split second then go deep. The logic is that in Stage-2, the throttle opens up quite fast, so the small throttle input brings enough rpm to the engine that the ECU does not feel the need to downshift.

ECU/Throttle Reset Procedure - Do I need it?

Funz51 tried this on his K-Tuner RDX, and it also helped improve the driveability of the powertrain. The only different is he did the ECU reset procedure after reflash, while I did it before flashing to Stage-2 from Stage-1. So for people who plan to get FlashPro, my recommended flow would be:
1. Flash the tune of your choice first.
2. If your transmission feels sluggish in stock form, do the ECU reset procedure.
3. Flash the same tune again. The idea is to iron out any potential glitches in the electronics. See my other posts for my experience on my car.

sonyfever

The other day, I learned in almost a bad way Stage-2 tune can wreak havoc on wet surface even in moderate speed.
The car was traveling on a narrow section of the road in the rain, turning into a right-hander. I was a bit rusty driving RDX due to shelter-in-place order, and went into the corner a little faster than planned.
I thought the speed was still manageable, but forgot how bad the crappy RS-A tires were in the rain. As soon as I stepped on the throttle mid-corner, the rear started sliding.
It was a mild and short slide, but I was caught off-guard completely. Luckily I was on the inside of the corner so I have a little , but the left edge looked not far away while this was happening.
Eventually, I held steady while the car sorted itself out. The car actually felt very stable and solid all along, just the grip level of the tires was hard to predict.

It was a not-that-close close call, but also show the capability the chassis in extreme condition. I cannot wait to see how the car transforms itself with Micheline A/S3+, or even Hankoon Ventus v12 Evo2.

Madd Dog

My RWD 535 came with RS-As. At 20K I switched them out for A/S 3s, and the difference was huge. I did not notice a big difference when the 3s wore out and the 3+ tires came out.

russianDude

I’ve never owned a new car that came with good long lasting tires. They like to put cheapest stuff or the ones give best gas milage.

Oil Stain

Isn't that the truth!

SpaceBot

https://carbuzz.com/news/honda-civic...480-hp-upgrade

Anyone see this? Don't we have the same engine in our RDX? Haha could you imagine that much torque and HP in our RDX if we could do the same upgrade? What a fun car that would be.

Funz51

this is why i don't worry about running a tune.

SpaceBot

So the Type R engine is one of the best 4 cylinder turbos out there on the market right? So I've read...

BoBoish

Just did the update and put everything in the middle (except the highest throttle response). Love it! It feels like Sport+ without keeping the high RPMs.

Funz51

is that for Hondata or Ktune?

BoBoish

Whoops...Wrong thread. It was the Ktune.

sonyfever

Kudos to KTuner for bring candies to you guys. I hope Hondata offers something similar soon! Though to be honest, Hondata Stage 2 already feels like stock Sport+ without the high revs.

Funz51

yeah, same as ktune, but I can always go for more right?
cheers!

sonyfever

More data from other user:
2020 RDX FlashPro Results 0-60 & 1/4 mile - Hondata