acuraada

Yes, we talked about the mining rare earth, processing, lifecycling batteries, and electricity production..... However, I don't *believe* it is anymore harmful than drilling/fragging for crude, transport it for refining, and then transported again for sales. This is a continuous cycle throughout a lifespan of an ICE vehicle. Not to mention the engine oil you need to replace every 6-12 months and the CO gas it produces.

And, personally for me, the geopolitical tension that crude creates.

Yes, EV is not 100% clean but it's a better alternative.

JB in AZ

Yes, I agree with MOST of this, can't argue...and I am not far on either side politically.

I think four main reasons I don't own an EV yet is the range (getting better all the time), charging time (getting better? I honestly don't know) accessibility (not from an ADA standpoint) of charging stations and the initial money outlay to get one of the (minimum) caliber of say the CR-V. I won't say I will never own one but I tend to think Hybrids nicely bridge that gap.

We previously owned both a 2007 Camry Hybrid (first year of Hybrid Camry) and then a 2009 Camry Hybrid. They not only accelerated quicker then the 4 cyl Camry, but got WAY better MPG. My wife was getting 42-43 MPG on her mostly suburban commute. The Hybrid was rated by the EPA at 34 combined, and the gas only 4 cyl at 24 mpg. SO... now I want a Hybrid again! NO, I will wait at least another year or two, then maybe the EVs will come closer to meeting my needs.

Totally unrelated...or perhaps it isn't...I don't understand when people move to the Southern AZ desert, and enjoy the views, and wide open spaces, yet they then get all upset when others want to move here and also enjoy the views. Can't have it both ways folks. Kinda like motor vehicles, we all want open freeways, or cheap fuel, then when the roads get congested....well you get it. I don't claim to have the answer, never did. I just know what I enjoy driving and talking about!

Added thought re: EV's. I don't frequent big cities, but I don't think there are many charging stations where we live. I guess that most of the Teslas I do rarely see are charged in folks garages?

JustMe...

Tucson, AZ 85730 - Electric Car Charging Stations Map

hand-filer

Ball joints, struts, brakes, wheel bearings, shocks etc. Ev's don't have these components?

fiatlux

I think most people don't expect their suspension components to wear out in less than 100k miles, and as for the brakes, since so much of the stopping is done through regenerative braking, the physical brake pads last a long long long long time. I have a friend with a 2012 Model S and 120K miles and he's still on his original brake pads.

hans471

OK, JB, as you may know I like my '19 RDX Advance. Also, I am lucky as my dealer is like 10.6 miles (driving distance) from my house. My dealer is great and we are treated like VIP's when we go in for service. (They also service our Honda if we want). My service advisor has been in the business for years and she knows cars, is honest and takes good care of the customers.
I liked my '17 CR-V a lot, but I always wanted an Acrua. After all, its an upgraded Honda. I have a "damaged" hip and the CR-V seats just are not as good as the RDX. The driving experience on the CR-V was good but the RDX is better. The interior of the new CR-V's are nice but the RDX is an upgrade. My RDX has those air conditioned seats (my wife loves those cool seats!).
Yes, the RDX uses more fuel. I did calculations and figured based on the driving we do in the RDX, our highway car, the cost difference per year was less than $200. BUT, we have a Honda Fit that gets like 35 city and 44 highway. We use it to run around locally. We have looked at hybrids and EV's and for us its just not worth the money. Also, we use the RDX for trips, visiting family out of state, etc. Normally a short trip for the RDX is 125 miles one way (250 round trip) with longer trips being 600 to 700 miles or more. EV just wouldn't cut it for that at all. The greatest strength of a hybrid vehicle is stop and go driving, like a mail delivery truck or someone who drives mostly in the city. On a road trip the hybrid's strengths decline greatly. As for EV's, while some thing ICE vehicles will be gone in a few years others know that is not very likely to happen for lots of reasons.

ICE vehicles are not perfect by any means. But, as I reflect on the history of the automobile I think of the time a bit over a hundred years ago when there was competition between steam, electric and gasoline. No one knew which would win out.
"Beginning in the 1880s, inventors tried very hard to make cars that would run well enough to use every day. These experimental cars ran on steam, gasoline, or electricity. By the 1890s, Europeans were buying and driving cars made by Benz, Daimler, Panhard, and others, and Americans were buying and driving cars made by Duryea, Haynes, Winton, and others. By 1905 gasoline cars were more popular than steam or electric cars because they were easier to use and could travel further without adding fuel." (Smithsonian)

What was true in 1905 is still true today, ICE vehicles have the right combination of range, costs, etc. for a majority of buyers. Some experts safely predict ICE vehicles will still be around in 2040. I tend to agree with them. Hybrids and EV's are practical for many folks but not all. I would buy an hybrid or EV to replace our FIt but financially it just doesn't make sense just yet. I am fortunate in that I can afford most any car I want ( disclaimer....I don't like MB, BMW, Lexus, Volvo and such) but there just isn't a car out there that can do all our Fit does. I would have loved to have gotten a new Honda Fit hybrid but they never brought it to the US.

I'm keeping my RDX. I won't buy a Lexus (old man's car!) or an over priced and expensive to maintain German brand. The Acura sort of hits the sweet spot for features, performance and cost of ownership for me. YMMV.

JB in AZ

Hehe... thanks, I think!

DriverOne

There's geopolitical tension between us and Texas?

BTW, it's not a better alternative. Where do you think your electricity comes from? Hint from California: it's not from green energy. Also, all the green energy sources are also non-environmental.

P.S. For people who aren't aware, the same people who demand limits on drilling in America are often the ones who then turn around and use the "this is terrible how we are dependent on foreign oil, right?" argument for so-called green energy. They're also the ones who enthusiastically discuss taxpayer subsidies for green energy and their purchase of a car and construction of charging stations used by only a few people. Like I've said before, anyone should buy any car they want for any reason, but anyone who demands me to help them with their dreams will get along with my money my insults and facts.

Madd Dog

You’re right that there are a lot of considerations.

Including what your state uses for power. Here in NY, we barely use any coal or petroleum to produce electricity,while Colorado, for example uses a lot of coal. So how your electricity is made means a lot as well.

I still think electric cars will be significant in the future, and I expect to be owning one.

anoop

The interior of the CRV is going to feel cheap compared to the RDX, not to mention worse seat comfort.

For me, comfort is #1. If there is an SUV that is more comfortable than the RDX at the same price, I would rather buy that.

Wander

I bought my daughter a current CR-V and I've driven it a little bit. It's a good car, and it has a very spacious and usable interior for its external size. Honda is a master at packaging, when they want to be.

Seats aren't bad in the current CR-V. But if comfort is king, I can think brands other than Acura, such as Lexus. As for interior quality and finish, yeah it's mainstream Honda. Durable and functional, but not dressed for the prom.

For the ICE-only version, the overall noise level and especially the sound of the little engine with the CVT are more significant issues IMO. I haven't driven the hybrid, but as a series hybrid with a NA Atkinson cycle engine, that's a whole different beast. But I think any CR-V needs a test drive to assess noise levels before any further consideration.

Passenger seat is supposed to be a problem in the current RAV-4, which also comes in a hybrid.

I view battery electric vehicles as a bridge to hydrogen powered vehicles. But it could be a very long bridge. Dunno.

Plug-in hybrids are the latest thing, but whether those are the best of both worlds ( ICE and B-EV ) or the worst of both worlds is subject to debate. Range anxiety vs maintenance anxiety?

anoop

AonA gives it an A for cabin noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5c...youtu.be&t=840

fiatlux

With caveats. He specifically calls out that it's louder when you're climbing up hills because of how much harder the engine has to work.

hans471

As I drive past the two coal fired generating plants not far from me I think of those "clean" EV cars.
Then I think about all these millions of EV's hooked up to recharge over night....massively overloaded power grid failing under the burden!
Meanwhile we go to our local library and here is a free charging station for EV's. My wife asks how it can be so unfair to give free energy to those people, the same ones who don't pay gasoline taxes to pay for our streets.
As for hydrogen powered cars....you do know that the majority of the hydrogen produced in this country is made from........hydrocarbons....as in crude oil. Don't even think that hydrogen powered vehicles are anywhere close to be a reality any time soon.
Oh, and look up how those car batteries are made and how those rare earth elements are mined and all the environmental damage connected to electric cars and the power grid needed to support them. (Massive copper mines that create all sorts of environmental issues, etc.)
There is no free lunch, folks....

anoop

Indeed. This is worth a watch if you haven't seen it.

The only thing EVs are good at is keeping pollution away from the city center. A side benefit is lower NVH and less maintenance. I'm no expert, but from my understanding so far, the only way we can power EVs without pollution is with nuclear power. Except that we then end up with nuclear waste and all the problems that come with that.

Wander

Hydrogen can also be produced by electrolysis of water, but you need electricity, and preferably not from burning coal...

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles already exist. AFAIK deployment of the fueling infrastructure is the hold-up. But I'm not saying a current hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is gonna get the performance freaks all excited. Gotta hand it to Musk and his "insane mode" B-EV on that one. Maybe super-capacitors can help with power demand surges. Dunno.

DriverOne

That's the thing, everyone who is into "green energy" is either a) massively profiting from the idiots who believe in it or b) an idiot. It's extremely alluring to believe that there is just "free energy" that doesn't "hurt anyone" (which is how they portray it) to obtain or use. But the reality is that this is false. And the more disturbing part is that all the people who believe in "green energy" never live their lives that way. One guy I know was boring me with his ranting about "green energy" and how evil fossil fuels are and I said "oh, right, hey, btw, why do you own two cars and you drive one and your wife drives another?" And he goes "what do you mean, we need to do that, we work at two different places." Uh huh. So if you work at two different jobs, then it's OK to "kill the earth." That's good. I asked him why his kids don't walk to school. He got angry at me. So it's OK for him to "kill the earth" for his kids to get to school. If you actually believe that doing something is killing the earth and endangering all of humanity, then I presume you wouldn't go "...except it's hot today and I need my A/C." Nobody who believes in that stuff should even be shopping for an SUV. At most, you should be car pooling with five other people to the grocery store, where you don't buy meat because that kills the Earth, don't buy anything with plastic packaging because that kills the Earth, and don't buy anything else because it's all shipped there by fossil fuels.

nist7

IIRC, the RAV4 Prime has an insane amount of hype and I've read that one california dealer already has like 100(?)+ ppl on a waiting list....inventory for the new RAV4 Prime will be extremely limited....won't be able to get one at reasonable prices until probably 1.5-2 years out I'm afraid....but that seems like a great utility/family vehicle though

jmhumr

I dunno man, I have a lot of questions about "green energy" too (such as where will all of this awful battery waste end up a generation from now?) but I don't think it makes much sense to politicize the whole idea of it just because we can't/don't go 100% green. If certain changes net only a 10% "greener world," then those benefits add up over decades and the world will be better for it. I don't really get too upset over the fact that producing and powering electric cars involves its own waste and pollution.

So while it's wrong to pretend that BEVs will save the earth on their own, it's also wrong to say they're not a step in a better direction. If you need evidence, look at the massive worldwide air quality improvements observed during COVID. Shipping, manufacturing, and "bad" energy production never really stopped during the pandemic. But driving and air travel fell substantially.

comanche250

You are right about one thing....don't even think about trading in. You are simply selling your old vehicle to the dealer for a giving away price. You are wrong in that it take two months to sell your vehicle. Where did you get two months from? Last vehicle I sold, it took 30 minutes to get a buyer. Yep you have to take a few pics, research what is a fair price etc...etc. Remember the dealer will inflate your "trade" but then add it to the new price with fees or god forbid your monthly payment. You can bet that sometime during the trade in process the salesman and his manager will take a break, go in the back room and laugh their asses off at how they're screwing you. They then come back and tell you had bad you are taking it to the dealer.

Vince D

"We are the World,
We are the Children..."

Sorry for digressing to 1985

DriverOne

Green energy isn't being politicized by me, it's being politicized by the left. If people just persuaded others to voluntarily do whatever, that's fine. But don't have the government set mandates on everyone and everything, from how much water your toilet can flush to whether you're allowed to water your lawn to how much energy must be "green" to whether you can use a straw and then blame me for politicizing it.

I'm not arguing "either go 100% green (which there is no such thing) or don't do it at all." But the way it works currently is "if I buy a 'green' car that actually, at its end-point, runs on fossil fuels, then I somehow am absolved from ruining the world and I get to tell everyone else that they're the problem." And everyone has to subsidize these ideas. None of them can function on their own. But because they're subsidized, we have vast solar arrays and thousands of wind farms and then everyone gets to say how "smart" that is, even though they can't support human activities. So it's basically the AIDS ribbon from Seinfeld: "WHERE'S YOUR RIBBON??" Maybe you can't go 100% green, but if you don't have to do anything to change your life -- like walk somewhere instead of drive -- then I question how serious and intense the problem is. The problem is that the left found out that's a non-starter. Like Cheryl Crow is out there talking about "only use one square of toilet paper" and she was laughed out of the building. So now the new "persuasive" tactic is "you can live exactly like how you're living now, just support green energy. Leonardo DiCaprio has his mega yacht and Al Gore has his gigantic mansions and Obama has his oceanfront home despite supposedly-rising sea levels, it's all OK. They support green energy, which is all you need to do."

jmhumr

Personal experience. I've sold cars as fast as 1 week and as long as 3 months. Currently have my 2017 BMW for sale for 2 weeks and it's been really slow. I professionally detail cars as a side-hustle and take good photos, so marketing is not a problem. I can't imagine a 2019 RDX being much different. And right now, the pandemic doesn't help.

DriverOne

The "pandemic" is hilarious because simultaneously everyone is unemployed and requiring government checks, but we're told that the housing market and used car sales are at unprecedented highs because everyone is buying new homes and used cars.

comanche250

It's either marking or asking too much vrs demand for a used BMW. They (BMWs) take a huge hit/depreciation right off the bat. If it was a Toyota Tacoma 4x4 it would be gone in 24 hrs. BMWs not so much.

jmhumr

From what I've read, the sales activity is driven by people who are downsizing to get cash or buying now to lock in low interest rates. Unemployment has also hit the lower class the most, and they're not really factors in either market. The economy is basically being held together by opportunistic middle and upper class people with stable income. I think a day of reckoning is coming. And, based on the crazy amount of cash that the world's smartest economic minds are divesting and hoarding right now, I don't think I'm alone.

jmhumr

The reason for that disparity is that there are for more people looking for light trucks than there are looking for luxury SUVs.

DriverOne

That may indeed be true, but I'd point out that the people least affected by the "pandemic" are people in government who are enforcing all the pain on everyone else. Like we can just say it's "middle and upper class people," but it's really a narrow group of the middle and upper class who have truly had a stable income. I agree that the ultra rich are in a unique position to benefit from the situation, but it's actually a gigantic cluster-eff all around because it was all driven by panic and non-science. Like even now, people in places think that if you don't wear a mask you're "killing my mom." Then those same people who are terrified turn around and complain about the effects of the pandemic that they drove.

comanche250

I hear you, very true. I guess I take it back. Sometimes trading in can be an option....I did once 20 years ago. I've read from sales professionals that if you do trade in make the deal first on the new car without them knowing you will trade.

Nates NJTL

A quick way to green up cars is simply reduce the horsepower. So it takes an additional 3-4 seconds to go to 60 mph, is that really a big deal for most? Small displacement turbo-diesels too. In the UK, I believe the CRV Turbo-Diesel, could have been previous gen, was getting over 55 mpg. I know there was an issue with Audi / VW but a clean diesel can be made, again, with a bit less horsepower but diesels beauty is low end torque which is what gets the car moving. Great discussion BTW. The process of making clean car batteries gets expensive if the rare earth metals are produced in an environmentally responsible way. Honda and Toyota still have their hydrogen fuel cell cars and I believe there is a thought that it is these products that will afford much cleaner cars but the refueling grid is spars and the cars are very expensive.

Madd Dog

Many states use virtually no coal whatsoever. Natural gas is far cleaner than coal, and nuclear is cleaner but comes with disposal issues. Hydro also does not contribute to global gas emissions to any real extent. With improvements in storage technology, wind and solar become more stable producers of electricity.

DriverOne

Natural gas is a fossil fuel and if one believes in anthropogenic climate change then it's essentially equivalent in "killing the planet and all of humanity" as oil or coal. Wind turbines, besides killing lots of birds, including eagles, take tremendous amounts of fossil fuels to build and maintain. Solar energy arrays are the most hilarious "green" technology. Like the people who love the earth somehow don't see that it's completely destructive to an ecosystem to cover it with solar panels. Anyone who has lived in a desert can tell you how amazing the plants and animals are that survive there, but people are like "nah, it's OK" and just build miles of solar arrays.

supafamous

Let's not let the valid points you be clouded by the tinfoil hat aspects of what you say. Bird kills by wind turbines are relatively trivial (https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...d-deaths-down/ and https://oilcity.news/community/2019/...ic-lines-more/)

EVs, in some cases, are not any more environmentally friendly than gas powered cars - they are often just redistributing carbon emissions when full lifecycle is considered. Mazda calls this out for their MX-30 electric car: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...sel-emissions/ Mazda's analysis doesn't take into account the wear and tear of roads caused by heavier electric cars either. In my area (British Columbia) we generate most of our power via hydroelectric dams so EVs work out to be net positives compared to gas powered vehicles.

That said, EVs are in their infancy and I can't wait till power density doubles (or quadruples) and we find non-rare earth metals to substitute for the rare ones being used now. Society depends on power and we need to find ways to reduce the overall impact of that power consumption but that won't solve all of our problems with climate change as we need to reduce our actual consumption as well as there's no free power source out there, just lower impacting ones.

DriverOne

Actually, it's hilarious that you just regurgitate Internet searches as if they're arguments. There's no thought behind it. Like "hey, if wind turbines only kill one bird per year ...why do they have to change anything at all?" I guarantee you never let that thought cross your mind, but instead just thought in satisfaction "there, I won the argument."

Madd Dog

There is no free lunch. With no great option, you go with the least bad one, and to me, non-coal generated electricity powering cars is less bad than ICE driven cars. I think that electric cars have a major role in the future of transportation in the US.

DriverOne

You're probably right that it's where we're heading. I don't attempt to change that, I just go along with the ride in amusement. I mean, we're all going to think we're ultra sophisticated and futuristic and then all the junk will be shipped overseas to Vietnam for disposal. If that's what people want, then I'm fine with that.

Madd Dog

There is a lot of crap I would like to dispose of in ‘Nam.

fiatlux

This seems like a very timely article:
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics...n-15591347.php

DriverOne

California, where they pass energy mandates that lead to rolling blackouts, manage their forests well enough to cause routine wildfires, and their infrastructure is collapsing while they have high speed rail lines to nowhere that cost trillions. Their voters should be barred from moving away from the policies they demanded.

JB in AZ

Wow! This certainly isn't the way I expected this conversation to go, but perhaps I should have? Let me just say I love technology! IF EVs were easier to attain, and "fuel up", and we didn't have to choose between "luxury" EVs (Tesla, Porsche, Audi) and bottom rung EVs (Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf) I don't doubt that I would have one. Like a few have said, it is likely the future. So, since I had my first Hybrid vehicle back in 2007, I have always thought this was the great middle ground. I do need a crossover now, so that does eliminate a bunch of sedans. I am not going to get into the green argument here. I am not "frugal" but I don't believe in overt waste, leaning more to reusing things, and watching how much I spend... on most things. I believe each generation has an obligation to give the next the best chance of surviving, without so much sacrifice that it takes all the fun out of life. Without fun in life, what fun is life?

Basically, when I bought the RDX I was at a place in my life where things lined up and I felt I could justify fulfilling my longtime desire for a premium brand. I am cautiously using that term "premium" as I have since learned there is a difference between premium and luxury.

I am now retired, with three adult kids, ranging from 35-39. ALL my life, I have thought about and talked about cars, virtually all my waking hours. ANYONE that knows me knows that. I worked hard most of my life to give my kids a roof over their heads and decent food on their table...Then, their first cars, and a good education. We tried to travel a bit domestically, when we could, as I felt that that was really a part of their education. There really wasn't much money to put into savings. Without going into all the details, (I never spent ONE dollar on Lotteries, but did send a few in casinos while in college), two or three years ago, I looked at things, my health, my age, my expenses, the amount I have in savings, and that was the moment I mentioned when "things lined up" and I decided this was the right time to make the jump from mainstream to Luxury (premium?). Another thing that anyone that knows me, knows...I do change vehicles ALOT! I have this thing about never wanting to pay for repairs. I have not been a payment buyer in many years, always paying cash. I always thought I couldn't lease due to the high amount of miles I drive. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter. You pay for the car and miles either way. Perhaps I always bought because I always thought "this car I would keep awhile"! LOL Leasing kind of gives you the ability at lease-end to say "Buh Bye!"...perhaps I SHOULD be leasing? BUT that is a different subject.

I really like the RDX. AND I really like the CR-V, but for different reasons. So we have one of the best of each in our garage...except, perhaps the Hybrid CR-V is one step better than the CR-V we have...It has a few features that are not available on the NON Hybrid CR-V, AND even better fuel mileage.

What is the matter with me? I have the best Premium vehicle for the price with the most features in my garage. I love driving it.
NOBODY cross shops the RDX and the CR-V.

Like I said a page or so back, I am not going to change any cars now. Perhaps in a year or two.

Carry on, I am enjoying the conversation, even if I am not participating in the discussion. While some people (not necessarily here!) only see one side of a discussion, I do see both. AND, I DO think America is great!