Tigmd99

X5 (current model) for the longest time had an issue where owners could NOT shut it down!

hondu

I've also read about tranny failures and a whole host of electrical issues.

Tigmd99

Unless Acura made huge changes to the 9-speed ZF transmission and re-tune gearing and software, i would go so far to say that 2015 MDX may be THE MDX future folks will look for! Even if you take out durability (unknown), the 9-speed ZF auto has been HEAVILY criticized for its drive performance. Way too many OD ratios. Poor downshifting performance that literally saps power b/w downshifts! And to get that magical fuel economy benefit (if any), you have to drive faster than 70 mph to realize it.

Tigmd99

So, go buy a BMW X5: F15 X5 Issues - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums

4 days old and dead from a bad electronic component.

Get my point? Your steering issue is unfortunate but it happens...a defective module, a bad batch, etc..

(And if you read on that thread and numerous others on that forum, then you will be happy to have an Acura!!!)

mrgold35

9AT seems like overkill other than bragging rights on a spec comparison sheet? 7AT, 7DCT or 8AT would of produced the same forum excitement and same or better mpgs. They could get that 1 mpg or more back with improved aerodynamics (active shutters, under body covers, improved rear diffuse air exit, etc...), econ mode setting, light hybrid model, adjustable air suspension that lowers the MDX at hwy speeds, and/or lower the weight with more composite/aluminum parts.

I would even go the route of smaller displacement 3.0L engine with a varible or twin turbo(s) and/or supercharger option. It would be like cylinder deactivation in normal cruise mode and large V-6 or small V-8 power when needed (aftermarket ECU upgrade option to follow).

Tigmd99

I think that 3G MDX already has those things you mentioned: http://www.cargroup.org/assets/speak...mes_keller.pdf

Hybrid model? Yeah, but how much would it cost? Do i want my TECH to cost as much as ADVANCE or more?!

Adjustable suspension that goes kaput after 50k miles? And costs a few thousands to replace?

The rest of the stuff you mentioned is ALREADY on 3G MDX.

Turbos? I don't know...most of the small displacement turbos are either anemic in feel (see Lexus NX) or troublesome (see BMW). I barely like VCM...so anything beyond that makes me nervous!

Tigmd99

Fuel Efficiency

The 2014 MDX with SH-AWD has a remarkable 17-percent increase in its combined EPA fuel economy rating versus the previous model, to class-leading levels (18/27/21 mpg city/highway/combined), while the new two-wheel-drive MDX is EPA rated at 20/28/23 mpg, a 28-percent increase in combined fuel economy versus the previous SH-AWD model (the only drivetrain configuration previously available).

Realizing this large of an increase in fuel economy ratings while meeting other critical objectives, such as top-level safety, improved dynamic performance and enhanced refinement, was made possible by the development of the new MDX platform and the resulting improvements in vehicle mass (weight down), driveline efficiency, and vehicle running resistance. As previously stated, the 2014 MDX is 275 pounds lighter than the model it replaces. Further, its all-new Earth Dreams Technology i-VTEC 24-valve V-6 engine features more efficient fuel combustion via direct injection, reduced engine friction, and the first application of Variable Cylinder Management technology to the MDX.

In addition to its lighter body and fuel-efficient powertrain, the new Acura MDX is optimized in every respect to reduce total running resistance or "road load," consisting of engine pumping losses, driveline friction, aerodynamic drag and tire rolling resistance. The MDX is the first Acura model to be developed using a new 40-percent-scale wind tunnel laboratory at the company's U.S. R&D facilities in Ohio. Through the use of the new wind tunnel with rolling ground plane and sophisticated computer modeling techniques, engineers were able to optimize the vehicle design - not only the upper body, but also the underbody as well as efficient airflow through the engine compartment - to achieve a 16 percent improvement in the new MDX's coefficient of drag to class-leading levels.

Total vehicle running resistance is also reduced 19 percent versus the outgoing model. In addition to improvements in powertrain efficiency and vehicle aerodynamics, key engineering features for reduced running resistance include new low-drag brakes (70 percent less drag versus the previous model), a new lightweight, low-drag hub and wheel bearing design, and reduced-rolling-resistance tires. The result is more efficient and effortless cruising efficiency - a tremendous example of Acura's smart approach to fuel efficiency. A low-profile 19.5-gallon fuel tank aids airflow and maintains the MDX's excellent highway driving range.

Key fuel efficiency details and features:

3.5-liter direct-injected i-VTEC V-6 with Variable Cylinder Management (VCM)
Active Noise Control and Active Engine Mounts improve VCM operating range
17 percent increase in combined fuel economy rating on models with SH-AWD
275 pound reduction in total vehicle weight
16 percent lower coefficient of drag
19 percent less running resistance
Low profile, 19.5-gallon fuel tank
Low-drag brakes
Light weight, low drag hub and wheel bearings
Lighter weight rear brake pistons
Luxury Quiet, Comfort and Convenience

Tigmd99

SH-AWD® System Layout (2014-2015)

The MDX SH-AWD® is a full-time all-wheel-drive system that requires no driver interaction or monitoring, thanks to a torque-transfer unit that is bolted directly to the front-mounted transaxle. The torque-transfer unit receives torque from a helical gear that is attached to the front differential's ring gear, and a short horizontal shaft and hypoid gear set within the torque-transfer unit's case send power to the rear propeller shaft, which in turn transfers power to the rear drive unit.

The MDX SH-AWD® rear drive unit is constantly overdriven by 1.7-percent and the resulting overdrive effect is regulated by left- and right-side electromagnetic clutch packs (located in the rear differential) that independently control the power delivered to each rear wheel.

Direct electromagnetic clutch systems mounted on either side of the hypoid gear that drives the rear axles control the amount of torque sent to each rear wheel and provide a limited-slip differential function when needed. The clutches can be controlled as a pair to alter front/rear torque split or they can be controlled independently to allow 100-percent of available rear axle torque to go to just one rear wheel.

An electromagnetic coil modulates the pressure controlling each clutch pack, which changes the speed of the sun gear within the rear differential's planetary gear set to control the amount of torque sent to each wheel. Electromagnetic control of the clutches permits the torque delivery to each rear wheel to be proportioned in an exceptionally quick and precise manner, which reduces wheel-slip in low-traction conditions.

The clutch packs and their friction material are carefully designed to withstand the small amount of continuous slip between front and rear axles created by the 1.7-percent speed differential - all while delivering the durability expected of an Acura product. Through an oil-temperature sensor, the SH-AWD® Control Unit monitors the rear differential's clutch-plate coefficient of friction (which changes with temperature) in each clutch pack and then adjusts the voltage to each electromagnetic coil to compensate. As total vehicle miles accumulate, the SH-AWD® Control Unit uses data from a feedback loop to adjust the voltage supplied to the electromagnetic coils to compensate for any clutch wear, ensuring optimal and consistent transmission of torque.

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So, it looks like MDX (2014-2015) has the TL (not TLX) SH-AWD system, but probably modified for better fuel economy (??)...it is now complemented by Agile Handling Assist which employs the anti-lock brake system to individually brake either the left or right front wheel to reduce yaw delay (the period between the steering wheel input and the rotation of the body) to improve corner traceability and balance.

The 2016 MDX will have the new SH-AWD system of TLX it seems. It will be telling to see how much overdriven percent it is...1.7 (TL) or 2.7 (TLX).

jayth.lg

Yes I got your point, so I do not plan to go to that route anytime soon.

kevTL888

here's the thing, i don't think there's anything wrong mechanically with the 9 speed. give it sometime, i'm sure Acura/ZF will come out with a simple software upgrade to resolve the issues. we've seen this with new models on almost every release, even the benchmarked BMW 8 speed auto had some issue when it first launched a few years back.

Tigmd99

Read the article i posted yesterday from Truths about Cars. Read the mechanical explanation. This is not something that can be fixed by simple software.

This is why some manufacturers refuse to use it. Let me quote that paragraph again from link:

"Downshifts are where the 9HP truly feels different. Because of the design, if you’re in 8th gear and want to pass, the transmission will often need to drop 4 or 5 gears to get to a suitable ratio. (Remember that 4th gear is the first ratio going back down the scale that is lower than 1:1.) To do this the transmission has to accomplish the harder task of engaging two dog clutches. To do this the transmission doesn’t use cone synchros like a manual (too bulky) it uses software. Engaging dog clutches requires a longer and yet more severe reduction in torque than the disengagement because the transmission has to align the clutch and then engage it. In most automatics when you floor the car you get an instant feeling of acceleration that improves as the transmission downshifts. Although there would be moments of power reduction (depending on the programming) during this time, the engine is always providing some force forward. The 9HP’s software on the other hand responds by cutting power initially, then diving as far down the gear-ladder as it can, engaging the dog clutches and then reinstating your throttle command. The result is a somewhat odd delay between the pedal on the floor and the car taking off like a bat out of hell. According to Volvo’s powertrain guys, this shift behavior is one of the main reasons they chose the Aisin 8-speed (shared with the Lexus RX F-Sport) over the ZF 9-speed used by Land Rover and Chrysler."
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Unless Acura has done MECHANICAL changes to 9HP transmission (doubtful bc that would require tremendous R&D $$$ and would make transmission bulky and heavy), this downshift problem is part of design.

hondu

Based on some insider info on vtec.net, the 9-speed in the MDX may be programmed more for sport than economy, so a test drive of the new 2016 should be a good indicator if the delay is minimized. It would also explain why the mpg went DOWN, instead of up.

The 9-speed in the TLX is currently programmed more for economy than performance.

Tigmd99

Could be true...but can't get around 4-5 gear drop (and engaging two dog clutches which requires major torque reduction) just to pass someone at 70 mph.

But here's the thing...IF true what you said (vtec.net), then this kind of thinking is stupid IMO. You have a high performing TLX with consumers wanting performance over MPGs...and it gets neutered by transmission programming.

Yet, you have a big SUV with high COG and competing with very efficient SUVs (BIG selling point for SUV consumers) and you program it for performance! I am at a lost for words...if rumor is true.

xedap1998

I think the 9 speeds ZF is designed for efficiency instead of performance

Also the 9 speed might down shift slower than 6 speed in certain driving condition but is faster at up-shifting and downshifting in most situation so there is a trade off for it

Right now Acura is after the $$ not the enthusiasts and i don't blame them for it

Enthusiasts complained why I don't have this and that....but when they buy car they buy them as cheap/bare as possible or bargain hard (no offense to anyone--i am included)

Another reason why the EPA goes down is because the RDX still use the 6 speeds and if the EPA rating for the RDX is less than the MDX that cant sound good since the RDX is 400 or so lbs lighter than the MDX


If a product/company does well then they will have the budget for the small group of car lovers

I think the 0-60 and quarter miles on the 2016 MDX will reduce a bit compare to the 6 speeds.

hondu

Yes, I find it to be stupid, if that is the case. But then again, it is probably the only logical explanation for the mpg change.

If you read all the technical info on the 9-speed it claims at how much more efficient the 9-speed is compared to the 6-speed, so if Acura changes the MDX from a 6-speed to the 9-speed, why the hell would the mpg go down? If the engine, tires and wheels stay the same (and the vehicle weight went down as well), it would have to be the tranny programming.

The only other reason I can think of, is that the EPA test does not properly reflect the efficiency of the 9-speed and real world mileage will actually improve.

mrgold35

It would be nice to have an adjustable height auto hatch. It would also be nice to be able to access the hatch area without having to open the entire hatch. It doesn't seem to be too much $$ to have the glass portion to open manually. I hate having to open my garage door to get something out the hatch.

iutodd

Well it does weigh 66 lbs less AND it up shifts 25% faster - so it's not like it's useless.

Also there has been a fundamental shift in Acura's philosophy: performance is more important than efficiency now. People can buy Hondas if they want efficiency. The TLX was completed before that shift took place and so was competed and finalized with different priorities.

Look at the language for the ILX - Accavitti didn't once mention fuel economy in his speech at LA despite the obvious improvements that were coming. The press release for the MDX doesn't really mention efficiency at all - the figures for the MDX are still class leading - instead focusing on performance and technology. Everyone knows that Honda products are efficient - Acura seems to be saying that their cars are going to be efficient yes but you won't care because the performance and technology are what you really want. It's a less important part of the package for this iteration of Acura and I'm guessing it will be that way moving forward.

I'm sure that Acura could have boosted the economy of the MDX if they wanted to - the TLX V6 shows how efficient the 9AT can be - and can you guys really imagine fucking HONDA would let a car be upgraded if the fuel economy was going to be worse? Think about that. As usual the proof will be in the pudding - if we see a quicker and better handling MDX then maybe Acura really is going to focus on performance.

Tigmd99

I like the way you think! I miss that bc my old 4runner could roll down the cargo door glass...and my 1st gen CRV glass could pop up.

hadokenuh

You just took the words out of my mouth.

Tigmd99

EPA numbers matter to SUV consumers...much more so than 0-60 and 1/4 mile. There is no freaking way that 2016 MDX will outperform an X5. MDX is like Mercedes M-class...somewhere b/w Lexus RX and X5...BUT with practicality of Highlander. That is MDX's sweet spot. If you think that Acura is smart in focusing on 1/4 mile and abandon MPGs, then that is a HUGE mistake IMO. One who buys MDX is not focusing on 1/4 mile.

Here's another problem...read the article i linked above. A test drive may very well reveal the inherent flaw of 9-HP transmission. Highway passing will be quite different from everything else (in a bad way). I am sure that it will be peppy from a stoplight, but 9-HP tranny is also designed to shift very quickly to its many overdrive gears as quickly as possible. And then when it has to downshift, WHAM! delay in power (dead zone), you're in limbo as the transmission has to downshift (slowly) 4-5 gears!

Better handling...because of the 2.7% (vs 1.7%) overdriving of the outside rear wheel? You think that most MDX drivers will care about that?! MDX handling envelope is already beyond 99% of MDX (and most SUV) drivers' capability! You think people will notice the 2.7% vs. 1.7% difference?!

I don't know...i do not see Acura's rationale in all this...other than this 9-speed transmission is purely a marketing move! I sincerely hope that i am wrong. My wife is in the market for a 2016-2017 Acura RDX...so, i sure hope that Acura gets it right with the transmission choice.

iutodd

The rumor actually says more than just that.

It says that Acura has shifted focus onto performance and so the transmission was programmed to deliver greater performance instead of trying to get greater fuel economy.

The TLX was done before that shift in philosophy happened/was approved and so it was tuned for more economy.

We either want Acura to focus on performance or we don't. People complaining about this look silly. The numbers for the MDX are STILL class leading.

Tigmd99

Class leading for now...you think that Lexus, Mercedes, and others will stay in same place?

Performance is more than just 0-60...how about passing times?

iutodd

They can overcome the downshift "issue" with programming - the 9AT doesn't HAVE to always chase the highest gear. 7th to 4th or 5th is no problem.

And...again, we either want Acura to focus on performance or we don't. It isn't like the MDX has gone from a slouch performer to an X5 M...the MDX was already a pretty strong performer (6.4 to 60 with .85 skidpad...the x5 35i is 6.0 to 60 with .81 skidpad...the MDX is also faster 5-60 than the X5 35i) and maybe this will see it unquestionably outperform the X5. Actually reading C&D's reviews of both vehicles it seems that the MDX is already pretty close.

You're basically complaining that Acura made the MDX lighter, faster and better handling. They also added a bunch of technology. If you think that's poor rationale for Acura then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

iutodd

Acura is using a SOHC V6 that was originally released in 1996 and still leading the field in terms of fuel economy. I think they have plenty of technological avenues for improvement. And they are already the lightest weight vehicle by far with a transmission that also has plenty of head room if they need to adjust it.

Here's the passing times for the 9AT FWD V6 TLX as measured by Car and Driver:

Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.1 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.7 sec

Here's the passing times for the 335i M Sport (first column), Cadillac ATS 3.6 (2nd) and IS 350 F sport (3rd).

TOP GEAR, 30–50 MPH 2.8 sec 3.1 sec 3.2 sec
TOP GEAR, 50–70 MPH 3.2 sec 3.9 sec 3.9 sec

I think the TLX is fine when it comes to passing so it stands to reason the MDX will be fine as well with the 9AT.

Tigmd99

DUDE, read the link above as to why 9-HP transmission has problem downshifting from higher gears!!!!!!!!!!! Stop assuming. READ.

You cannot chase BMW...you will lose. BMW has a huge lead over everyone else. Trust me, i am NOT a BMW fan.

Better handling? How? 2.7% vs. 1.7%? Seriously?!

Tigmd99

Top gear passing...does that mean that the car stays in TOP GEAR (9th gear) and pass? Or does it mean that it downshifts into a lower gear and pass? If they are testing top-gear passing (staying in 9th and passing), then your time proves nothing about what i am talking about. Top gear passing (if i am correct in assuming that you keep it in 9th gear and pass) is more about top gear ratio, final drive, and engine's power (along with vehicle's weight).

iutodd

I have read.

From here:
Ur-Turn: Saturation Dive Into The ZF 9-Speed - The Truth About Cars

Downshifting from say 7th to 5th is no problem as well, but a downshift from 8th or 9th to 5th is hard work for this design.

The example he goes on to give it that, at 60 mph, in 8th gear, trying to downshift to 4th or 5th is a lot of work. My point is that Acura can program the thing to stay in, say, 7th gear, and make downshifting less of an issue. I see no reason why they can't do that.

7th is a little high for interstate cruising at 75-80 mph but it's fine for 60 mph on a two lane. 5th gear is 1:1 and 4th is 1.3:1. Either gear should be more than enough for a big engine like the J35 with it's very broad torque curve to get going rather quickly.

I don't claim to understand how SHWAD works but the new system is supposed to handle better than the old system.

Tigmd99

Just out today: ZF 9-speed Automatic Problems Mount, Chrysler Releases Third Update for Cherokee - News - Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

"Problems with the ZF-designed nine-speed automatic transmission are continuing to pile up, with customer complaints continuing to roll in regarding new Jeep, Chrysler, and Acura models.

As of today, we counted a total of 145 unique owner complaints posted to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 126 of which explicitly named the 2014 Cherokee’s transmission. Another 10 transmission complaints were lodged for the new 200, and eight have been posted to the TLX’s log file.

Cherokee, 200, and TLX owners have each reported conditions such as sudden lunges from unexpected downshifts, a lack of kickdown upon entering highways, front-axle vibration in low gears, and complete failures in which the transmission shifts into neutral while driving and lights up the dash with warning lights.

Other owners have reported rollaways in which the vehicle indicated it had engaged park when it was actually in neutral.

While NHTSA has not launched an investigation, Jeep dealers are replacing between 12 to 15 transmissions a week, according to AN. Aside from Honda, there have been no recalls for this transmission, only lots of frustrated owners from these first-year vehicles.

“We have had to do an inordinate amount of intervention on that transmission, surely beyond what any of us had forecast,” FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne said at the Detroit auto show last month."

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Note to Acura: if you want to focus on PERFORMANCE for MDX, then do two things:
1. Why the f**k you take away the shifter and put in BUTTONS?!!!! (No benefit btw to the space on console!!)

2. Need HANDBRAKE, not something you stump on with your left leg.

Otherwise, what you do is purely cosmetics and marketing.

iutodd

From here:

Acceleration and Braking

We also perform two acceleration tests, from 30 to 50 mph and from 50 to 70, in a vehicle's highest gear. In vehicles with manual transmissions, this test measures how well a car's gearing matches the torque curve of its engine. With automatics, the test begins in top gear and then the car downshifts automatically under hard acceleration. This provides information about transmission responsiveness and actual passing times, but any comparison of results between manuals and automatics is meaningless.

Tigmd99

Here's a hint: why use a 9-speed if you're not going to use all the gears? Pure example of...MARKETING!

Maybe that is why Lexus etc. have stayed away from ZF's transmission and its retarded design....

Tigmd99

So, based on what you wrote, we need to find out which "top gear" the tester was in when doing the time test.

Anyway, given its track record so far, ZF 9-HP transmission is pure utter crap. Good luck believing that it is the transmission of Acura's transformation into a high performance brand! Hell, as i read more about it, the more that i laugh at Acura's (moronic) design to go with ZF! Pure marketing.

hondu

I think you misunderstand my position. I am okay with Acura going after performance, I just think it is stupid the MDX is tuned for performance, while the TLX is tuned for economy. They need to re-tune the TLX ASAP as well, to up its performance. I think a loss of 1 mpg in the TLX is okay as well to make that happen.

iutodd

I agree completely. It just can't happen right away. The TLX has been on sale 6 months and the ILX, RDX and RLX need some attention too.

xedap1998

I think you gave Acura too much credit...they are tuned exactly the same. One is just a big and heavy beast and not as aerodynamic as the other

I think the TLX just need some fat and meaty tires to do well..some of the slow shifting from 8 or 9 gear down to 4-5 will be a characteristic of the tranny

The EPA test which doesnt always reflect real world driving condition. I would just use it as a guidance and nothing more

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

I dont think the MDX will even shift into 9 gear most of the time....

Edward'TLS

The Honda J-series SOHC V6 (with DI) engine family is near the end of the life cycle. Unless coupled with force-induction or hybrid assist, the naturally-aspirated V6 engine can no longer be tuned for significantly more output hp, unlike in the good old days when the J-series design was still new.

Honda needs a DOHC head for a new V6 family in order to continue its quest in cranking out significantly more hp, just like all its competitors.

But the J-series V6 is still very good in fuel economy, like you said.

However, the premium luxury Acura division is more about performance than fuel economy, especially that AWD is never fuel economy friendly. Therefore, it needs to have big hp over maximum fuel economy, and high performance engines are more suited for the job.

Whereas, the economy Honda division is more about excellent fuel economy, and as a result, gas-sipping engines are its priority.

As for myself as an Acura owner, I didn't and won't buy Acura vehicles because of their outstanding fuel economy.

But if I buy a cheap Honda, I will.

Tigmd99

Actually, i have found that EPA is very reflective of real world for an average driver.

Again, if MDX will not see 9th gear most of the time, then EPA rating will be spot on. And the reason 9th gear is not seen is? Oh yeah, MARKETING!!

Remember, MDX getting good fuel economy is not because of the inherent goodness of SOHC V6 J-series.

It is because of these interventions: http://www.cargroup.org/assets/speak...mes_keller.pdf

Mainly: VCM, extensive use of high strength steel (plus aluminum and magnesium), direct injection, and aerodynamics measures.

I disagree with you guys about Acura's new all-out performance focus. Why? Look at Acura RLX and TLX:

1. Still FWD platform...esp. ridiculous in the $50,000+ RLX!!!! Acura cannot seem to escape the image of a glorified Accord!
2. 9-HP ZF transmission that has FOUR overdrive gears and cannot downshift if its life depended on it!
3. Leg push parking brake.
4. Electronic buttons for transmission.
5. Transmission shift speed still darn slow.
6. Weak fade-galore brakes.

I am sure that i am missing some, but just from top of my head.

I like Acura (thus, my MDX purchase), but i am not delusional to think that Acura is up there with BMW.

Think about this...look around you...can you think of a $60,000 sports/luxury sedan from a luxury company that is FWD? Crap, even Kia is now making luxury cars with RWD!!!!!!

IMO, it is easier for Acura in its current state (bunch of FWD platforms) to chase Lexus than it is to chase BMW.

hondu

Well you can get build a FWD A6 for close to $50,000, that is about the only thing I can think of close to the RLX.

They should really only offer the eSH-AWD model for the RLX and nothing else.

blacktsxwagon

Acura.com build and price is online. As I said in the ILX forum, AcuraWatch does not include BLIS or Rear Cross Traffic on the base model. Pretty dumb if you ask me and there will be many confused people who get this suite of safety systems without the most basic one.

Tigmd99

One more thing...if Jeep is replacing 10-15 transmission PER WEEK, then this ZF tranny problems are NOT software related.

paigoomein

When we got the 2015 MDX, we wished that they would have offered BLIS as part of a standalone safety package rather than putting it together as part of the safety package. But yeah, I agree that the way they packaged AcuraWatch for 2016 model is a bit odd.