mercman

While I was installing my new door speakers I decided to bring out my test equipment and have a look at the output of the ELS amp. Well was I surprised, there is a considerable amount of clipping when the volume gets up around 35, I measured about 40 watts into 2 ohms but the output waveform was extremely clipped and distorted. This is the reason that voice coils are frying.

Because I was doing the install I did not have time to do any additional tests, but from the looks of this it won’t be necessary, this amp basically is a POS and they have employed excessive DSP to cover it up.

I will post photos of the door disassembly and speaker brackets latter.

Jeff

Phillyfisher

Pushing the treble and bass settings probably does not help either. A crappy amp can destroy the best of speakers, even if they have a high power rating. Considering that a speaker's impedence varies, a cheap amp will clip easily when the impedence drops.

ESHBG

Yeah, I think it is an amp issue also. I never push my system and barely have the settings above moderate, but what the giveaway for me was the turn off thump I got a few times while having to suddenly shut off/restart the car and while the radio was playing.

dano9258

Great! My speakers are starting to sound staticy...is this the first sign of the speakers going?

win2k8

So this means we will have to get a after market amp also with the speakers if we want to do something about it since Acura has done nothing but keep replacing the speakers... Or just get an after market amp and then get dealer to replace the already blown speakers? But, will the dealer replace the speakers once an after market amp is installed?

Thanks,

win2k8

Tishkevich

iTrader: (3)

just get the speakers replaced, then dont' turn your radio on and go straight to the audio place and install the amp.

where is the amp anyway?

win2k8

Yea but i' am pretty sure their going to turn it on to test it once they replace the speakers, If I tell them not to that would sound kind of suspicious.

win2k8

Luchin

So basically what you're saying is having the amp replaced with the same amp is not going to fix the problem.

What is DSP?

mucter

Digital Signal Processing

mercman

You can’t replace the ELS amp with aftermarket because all of the functions for volume, bass and treble are controlled in the external amp. The HU produces an analog constant level signal that is converted to digital in the amp for processing. The HU controls the amp via a data bus. Going with aftermarket digital eqs and processors like the 360 after the factory amp will only make the problem worse. I wish now that I went with the base TSX.

I’m working on decoding the data so I can control my analog volume/tone pre amp.

I post the photo of the signal and my speaker install once I get the photos off the camera (lost my cable).

The DSP in the factory amp really boosts the highs, I can tell I have tweeters with the new speakers.

Jeff

Luchin

Are you saying that the problem lies in the design of the amp and not a faulty amp? If that's the case then replacing the amp with another factory unit would not fix the problem. Since we can't get an aftermarket amp were pretty much screwed unless we get a different HU. Am I right?

win2k8

whats HU?

win2k8

mercman

Well I would think that as soon as Acura gets fed up with paying to have the speakers changed they will go back to Panasonic and have them fix the amp. For now as long as they think it is defective voice coils they will keep swapping speakers. Once they see that even the upgraded speakers are blowing, it will go back to the engineers for a solution.

I’m not waiting, as soon as I can map the HU data to control my preamp I’m ditching the ELS. I built an interface this weekend to tap into the data lines and convert to RS232 for display on the laptop. Since I installed the new speakers I have a bigger incentive to make the preamp/adapter.

HU=Head Unit.

Jeff

acuratsx2010

I believe the amp is located behind the right trunk liner. I was taking the trunk apart in order to install the advance cargo net over the weekend and noticed what I thought was an amp.

win2k8

I do not want to replace the head unit, I guess I will just have to wait it out until the engineers at Acura figure it out. Lately, I've been masking the distortion with the EQ settings and it does not sound so bad. Makes me mad though I spent all this extra money on ELS, and theirs a known issue but Acura can not figure it out. The dealers near me are dumb and dumber too. One will not acknowledge theirs an issue with the speakers, the other will replace the speakers with the same part number and not the upgraded speakers not that it would matter since its an Amp issue as suggested in this thread.

win2k8

patcracks

I still dont understand how people can hook up a subwoofer + amp combo in the trunk...I was just messin around and put my subs and amp in trunk but just hooked up subs with speaker wire to rear sub connections they worked but it didnt sound so different. How would I get power to my amp and have it work with the car radio? thanks yo i just got back from vegas...missed my car lol

civichbdx

Its actually pretty easy run a + from the battery find a ground in the trunk run and REM cable from fuse box located under driver side dash then run high to low off of factory sub. I have 2 Polk 12's with a custom box in mine sounds amazing. also have 6.5 infinitys in the doors.

CU2MIKE

Hi, i was wondering if you could answer this question for me.....
i want a little more thump out of my system, is it ok to swap in a 8inch JL W3 in place of the stock woofer without swapping anything else? thanks!
oh by the way i have a base model.

civichbdx

Well personally I wouldn't reason being even though that JL speaker is a great item running it in the stock location would not benefit you with out putting it in a box and adding an amp.the the stock sub is a free air sub the JL is not meant for the application.
Hears a pic of my custom box 2 Polk 12" might give you some ideas.

CU2MIKE

i understand that, but i do travel quite a bit with my gf and i need that trunk space. and its not like im looking to do a full system with 2 subs, amps, a cap, new battery, components and what not. only looking for a little bit more thump here. plus the W3s can be had for pretty cheap these days. i wonder if the oem amp on the base model would be able to handle an aftermarket sub though, thats pretty much my main concern.
oh and by the way, i was in a car wreck, car's in the bodyshop now, and the whole rear of my car's disassembled (trunk, trunk carpet, rear bumper, quarter panel, rear deck, speakers + sub, seats, etc etc...), and the bodyshop's like, why not get a new woofer lol.

mercman

Ouch, sorry to hear about your wreck. Can we keep this thread on the subject of the Tech amp and speaker issues?

Here is a 1 Khz 0db sine wave in DVD mode with the volume set just over 30 (33 If I remember)

[/URL]

Each box is 2 volts. Don’t worry about the double image; I didn’t have time to ground the scope so I had some “hum” in the signal.

Jeff

Luchin

So what exactly should we be assuming from looking at this image because it's as clear as mud to me. Pardon my ignorance in this matter.

I want to understand all of this so I can drop an A bomb on Campus Honda's counter the next time they ask me what I set my base at.

Tishkevich

iTrader: (3)

who the fuck cares what you set your bass too? You should be able to have it maxed out and the speakrs don't blow

Luchin

LOL. That's what I told the service advisor but without the 'fuck' in there. Anyway they are going to be replacing the pass rear door speaker and the sub.

Tishkevich

iTrader: (3)

lol that's probably why people don't' like me, I'm not educated enough to articulate my opinions with out curse words. My vocabulary is that of a 14 year old.

katmai

I'm not sure I'm understanding this completely. If the volume is turned up to ~35 then some "clipping" can occur which can cause the speakers to go bad...

I listen to music with the volume around 9 most of the time, mid teens at most. Any louder than that and my car is too loud, or its loud enough that common sense would tell me its so loud that I'm going to blow the speakers. That's on an ipod input, bass and treble at 6, sub at 2, and dolby on.

Based on my ears it seems to me that at 35 you're right, it will clip. My home theater will do that too. Its too dang loud for its own good, but how would I get to 35 without blowing something for sure when anything louder than say 17 seems to be a reasonable limit? I had to replace 5 speakers in the first 7 months and I've never put the volume anywhere near 35. Its also been about a year since my last speaker was replaced and I haven't had any problems since.

tcwatkins

What does "clip" mean? And how does it destroy speakers? (Yes, I really have no idea. My normal interest in electronics is finding the on switch.)

Luchin

The music in my car is never above volume 10 and most times it's always a background sound.


I prefer to hear what my car is doing.

DJ'$-Ack

At what volume number is the 1khz sine wave the cleanest?...... I am very inerested in this because i was thinking about getting a TSX V6....... I currently have a 2006 Acura TL and I did not scope the factory amp but I did fade to the front and balanced to the left....... then i played a 1khz tone recorded at 0db (all bits high)....... the tone was clean all the way to 35.

flippedout

I'm in the same boat as katmai...I rarely have the volume above 15 and it seems loud enough. The issues I have had with the sounds are mainly due piss poor input source. Many tracks on my iPod were ripped at low bit rates. Those ripped at CD quality sound amazing and provide quite a bit of bass. I did honestly expect there to be more bass when I shelled out the money for the ELS but I can deal with it.

Before I bought the car I read about the speaker issues and I think the loudest I have gone is 22 for fear of blowing a speaker. If at some point Acura decides the acknowledge the issue described in this thread, I'm sure I will crank it up to blow the speakers to get the upgraded amp.

By the way, when you blow your speakers some here have mentioned upgraded parts. What is the upgrade compared with the stock speakers I have?

fceeviper

My front passenger speaker is acting up, made an appointment with my dealer.

I'm glad I'm under warranty.

lopez205tx

hey mercman
I did noticed when i set up the els off the sound is a little better but i have not hooked a o scope like you. but you should check the sine wave when the els is off and check the differences. and i don't know if you notice that their is no sound coming out of the rear door speakers. I was thinking about adding a resistor and a cap so it can fix the sound a little and get a better deep voice instead of that noisy wave.

mercman

You can’t turn the “ELS” off; all modes are digitalized and have “Elliot’s” EQ applied. If you are talking about the Dolby setting I don’t think it will change anything. I have been working on the replacement preamp for the ELS and the converter for the Base TSX so I haven’t had time to do any more research on the ELS amp. I do know that the ELS amp boosts the highs to ear bleed level and the bass is volume sensitive. I was going to add so pads for the tweeters but I decided it was good motivation to get the preamp built.

Jeff

fceeviper

Just got back from the dealer to get my speakers repaired, sound great now.

The dealer replaced both speakers, hoping they last longer this time around. Crosses fingers!

TranceR

i will be getting a new tsx soon and was considering the tech package but after hearing of all these issues i think i'll go the aftermarket route...i want the oem navi though...

Colin

Thanks for the update, I think I surmised this last year

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tsx-2009-2014-143/when-things-go-wrong-car-software-upgrades-756710/#post11604114

Tannis

This was the basis of my decision to go base tsx. I can always add and modify but I'll never be able to undo fully integrated bad electronics. Nevermind the fact that if the oem navi kicks the bucket after the warranty is up it costs thousands to get a new one. Thats what I have an iPhone for. Yes the oem navi is all pretty and what-not but I found little value in it.

Good luck with your decision.

briq456

So I was having my speakers replaced for about the 7th time. Not kidding. They gave me a 2012 TSX, brand new, 450 miles on the odometer, front speakers BOTH blown already. And I mean totally blown. On my 2010 they start to sound like a flop at high volume, these ones were garbled and scratchy sounding at volume 03. I did notice a difference in the 2012's amp operation such as a delay in response from when you turn the volume knob to when the volume goes up or down. Also when you switch from Dolby Pro Logic on and off there is no longer a pop type sound, it almost mutes quickly and unmutes. maybe this was Panasonic's way of trying to not fry any more voice coils but apparently no dice. Really sucks as my warranty is running out to know that I'm on my own. Wish I had just gotten the base model. Has anyone heard if Acura/Panasonic are stepping up to do something besides throwing speakers at our cars over and over again?

Chicosito

I just checked my speakers on a low setting and they are definitely blown. This sucks...