New Member Audio Help.. Can't find straight answer anywhere on forums
04-27-2012, 06:50 PM
#1
New Member Audio Help.. Can't find straight answer anywhere on forums
I've been researching this for about a week and have gone through every page of this forum and on crutchfield and still haven't found a straight answer. Too many mixed messages and the answers that do seem somewhat helpful are related to the ELS system.
I have a 2012 tsx, special edition with base stereo and want to change the factory speakers. I'm happy with the volume of the system, just want more clarity and quality, so I don't want to add amps or subs.
I'm partial to polk audio, but open to recommendations. Half the forums say their system sounds better, half say it sounds worse. I know the factory speakers are 2ohm, and I haven't come across anyone who instaleed the polk MM series, which is 2ohm. Only the Db or Dxi series which is 4ohm, which I assume is the reason for loss power.
I'm no expert, so I'm looking for expert advice on this. I'm thinking about putting the MM series component system in the front doors and another 2ohm coaxial in the read doors and rear deck.
Anyone have experience with the MM series off stock HU and amp? Like i said, I don't want to add amps or subs. Any help is greatly appreciated
I have a 2012 tsx, special edition with base stereo and want to change the factory speakers. I'm happy with the volume of the system, just want more clarity and quality, so I don't want to add amps or subs.
I'm partial to polk audio, but open to recommendations. Half the forums say their system sounds better, half say it sounds worse. I know the factory speakers are 2ohm, and I haven't come across anyone who instaleed the polk MM series, which is 2ohm. Only the Db or Dxi series which is 4ohm, which I assume is the reason for loss power.
I'm no expert, so I'm looking for expert advice on this. I'm thinking about putting the MM series component system in the front doors and another 2ohm coaxial in the read doors and rear deck.
Anyone have experience with the MM series off stock HU and amp? Like i said, I don't want to add amps or subs. Any help is greatly appreciated
04-27-2012, 06:52 PM
#2
Oh, and I don't want to lose any bass in the process, which is something else I hear people having problems with. If I add a little, that's fine, but don't want to lose
04-27-2012, 07:24 PM
#3
Adding an amp will most likely give you more clarity than swapping speakers.
04-27-2012, 07:24 PM
#4
I can help you with some good advice. Frist, the base 2nd gen audio system is basically the same as the first gen system. Here is what you have; there is a small amp in the back of the car behind the trunk side trim) that is about 12-18watts/ch, this is the same as any aftermarket high powered deck. The amp has a separate output section for each speaker (including the tweeters) and internal crossovers and frequency shaping for each channel. The system power rating is of 370 watts is of course total BS.
Now for speakers, since the amp has a separate output for each speaker you can’t use the crossovers that come with aftermarket components just by connecting them to the door speakers because the door speakers don’t receive all the highs. You can install the aftermarket components directly and use the internal xover in the amp but this might not sound that good. This is where you have to test and possible adjust. I don’t know for sure if the factory amp has a cap for the tweeter channels to protect the tweeters (the 1st gen did) as I did not have enough time to fully examine the one that I had. You might need to add a series cap or use the aftermarket xover just for the tweeters.
The one thing you don’t need to worry about is speaker impendence (as long as you don’t go below the minimum). Using a two ohm speaker on the factory amp will not play louder or get more power from the amp, this is just not going to happen. The 2 ohm will double my power is just marketing BS, it just doesn’t happen in the real world. The ICs used in the factory amp will start to limit the output current if the load is too low. Using 2 ohm speakers will in most cases raise distortion.
So what should you do? Find a set of speakers that fit the car and your budget but most of all sound good to you. Then, install them and see what you get, it will be an improvement over the thin factory speakers. If down the road you decide to install a multichannel amp you will have good speakers to work with.
Jeff
Now for speakers, since the amp has a separate output for each speaker you can’t use the crossovers that come with aftermarket components just by connecting them to the door speakers because the door speakers don’t receive all the highs. You can install the aftermarket components directly and use the internal xover in the amp but this might not sound that good. This is where you have to test and possible adjust. I don’t know for sure if the factory amp has a cap for the tweeter channels to protect the tweeters (the 1st gen did) as I did not have enough time to fully examine the one that I had. You might need to add a series cap or use the aftermarket xover just for the tweeters.
The one thing you don’t need to worry about is speaker impendence (as long as you don’t go below the minimum). Using a two ohm speaker on the factory amp will not play louder or get more power from the amp, this is just not going to happen. The 2 ohm will double my power is just marketing BS, it just doesn’t happen in the real world. The ICs used in the factory amp will start to limit the output current if the load is too low. Using 2 ohm speakers will in most cases raise distortion.
So what should you do? Find a set of speakers that fit the car and your budget but most of all sound good to you. Then, install them and see what you get, it will be an improvement over the thin factory speakers. If down the road you decide to install a multichannel amp you will have good speakers to work with.
Jeff
04-27-2012, 08:28 PM
#5
Thanks merman! That is by far the best response I've gotten to or seen anywhere related to this. You had said " You can install the aftermarket components directly and use the internal xover in the amp but this might not sound that good. This is where you have to test and possible adjust." Would sounding not that good still sound better than whats in there? And What could I adjust if I don't use the component crossovers?
You seem know you stuff, so can I ask what speaker brand and model you would recommend that would give me the best quality sound?
And what recommendations do you have if I did want to install a small amp to all of the speakers down the road?
I really appreciate your advice
You seem know you stuff, so can I ask what speaker brand and model you would recommend that would give me the best quality sound?
And what recommendations do you have if I did want to install a small amp to all of the speakers down the road?
I really appreciate your advice
04-27-2012, 09:56 PM
#6
mercman and I have a fundamental disagreement about the sources of poor sound. While he believes that the speakers are the main culprits, I maintain that a cleaner signal will provide less distortion to the existing speakers resulting in cleaner sound at the same volume levels.
I'm of the school of thought that thinks that you clean up the signal first and then swap speakers.
Who is right? I am, of course
but mercman's method will also yield pleasant results.
I'm of the school of thought that thinks that you clean up the signal first and then swap speakers.
Who is right? I am, of course
but mercman's method will also yield pleasant results.
04-27-2012, 10:33 PM
#7
Thanks ceb. My thoughts are that you need both. A strong, clear signal, but also good speakers that can turn that signal into quality sound. Thats what I'm looking for. A slightly stronger, but much cleaner and crisper sound.
I would consider adding a small amp, maybe in the future, but i dont really want to HAVE to I see on the forum how to tap into the sub wire for the signal, but not sure where to connect the remote wire and not sure i want to run a power wire down the entire length of the car. I read about the xm radio receiver as place to run the remote wire, but I don't see it under the passenger seat, like someone said.
So for now I'm just looking for best options for speaker replacement.
The 2ohm vs 4ohm confuses me. I don't understand why most people who replaced the factory speakers with 4ohm said they lost power and I haven't come across anyone who replaced with 2ohm to get their results
I would consider adding a small amp, maybe in the future, but i dont really want to HAVE to I see on the forum how to tap into the sub wire for the signal, but not sure where to connect the remote wire and not sure i want to run a power wire down the entire length of the car. I read about the xm radio receiver as place to run the remote wire, but I don't see it under the passenger seat, like someone said.
So for now I'm just looking for best options for speaker replacement.
The 2ohm vs 4ohm confuses me. I don't understand why most people who replaced the factory speakers with 4ohm said they lost power and I haven't come across anyone who replaced with 2ohm to get their results
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04-28-2012, 08:38 AM
#8
Let me try to explain in layman's terms.
An amplifier produces a certain amount of power and that power stays constant (depending on your volume setting of course) The way a speaker reacts to that power depends on the impedance of the speaker (let's call that efficiency or resistance for practical purposes.)
As the resistance goes down, the speaker uses the power more efficiently - hence we say that an amplifier "puts out" twice as much power at 2 ohms as it does at 4.
However, the lower the resistance, the dirtier the signal becomes. Go too low and the amp sees a short and melts down.
Amplifiers and speakers are also rated at how efficient they are and that is generally expresseed as how many decibels they produce at 1 watt. Let's assume that a given speaker will produce 93db at one watt - that's pretty loud by the way - then it requires 2 watts for 96db, 4 watts for 99 and so forth. A SPL (sound pressure level) of over 100db can start to be damaging to your hearing.
Next up - how a speaker works and why it doesn't really produce sound.
An amplifier produces a certain amount of power and that power stays constant (depending on your volume setting of course) The way a speaker reacts to that power depends on the impedance of the speaker (let's call that efficiency or resistance for practical purposes.)
As the resistance goes down, the speaker uses the power more efficiently - hence we say that an amplifier "puts out" twice as much power at 2 ohms as it does at 4.
However, the lower the resistance, the dirtier the signal becomes. Go too low and the amp sees a short and melts down.
Amplifiers and speakers are also rated at how efficient they are and that is generally expresseed as how many decibels they produce at 1 watt. Let's assume that a given speaker will produce 93db at one watt - that's pretty loud by the way - then it requires 2 watts for 96db, 4 watts for 99 and so forth. A SPL (sound pressure level) of over 100db can start to be damaging to your hearing.
Next up - how a speaker works and why it doesn't really produce sound.
Last edited by ceb; 04-28-2012 at 08:40 AM.
04-28-2012, 09:22 AM
#9
It’s not right vs wrong it just what to replace first. i.e, the best bang for the buck. For the base system you start with the speakers because while the amp is under powered it is not total junk. It is actually made by one of the most popular car audio brands using the same components as are used in their high end decks. Lots of people have just upgraded their speakers and have had excellent results on the base premium system. I also believe that adding a good clean aftermarket amp is the best way to build a better system but not everyone is willing to do that.
As far as 2 vs 4 ohm, let me start by saying that I have over 40 years’ experience in electronics with a lot of that in audio. I have built amps from parts and do a lot of audio repair work, so I do know what I am talking about. Most people use Ohms law to justify the statement that a 2 ohm load will draw more power than a 4 ohm load. What they fail to address each the amplifiers source impendence, the source impendence acts like a resistor in series with the speaker load so when you lower the load impedance more power is lost via the source impedance. The net real world result is more power wasted and less power to the speaker. Now, if an amp is designed or specified to drive a 1 ohm load then you will see a gain in power, but most amps blow up at 1 ohm. The best reason to stay away from 2 ohm stuff is that it limits your amp choices if you decide to upgrade and install an amp. Save the 2 ohm speakers for the 1000w class D duel 18’s with bullhorn thumper guys.
I have a bunch of posts for the 1st gen TSX about how the buy speakers, it really is up to you. Take some of your favorite music to the audio store; adjust the volume so each pair plays at the same level. Most people will buy the loader equipment, this is an old audio salesman’s trick, don’t do it. Lastly, ignore what the salesman says; they get a spiff or commission on moving equipment.
Jeff
As far as 2 vs 4 ohm, let me start by saying that I have over 40 years’ experience in electronics with a lot of that in audio. I have built amps from parts and do a lot of audio repair work, so I do know what I am talking about. Most people use Ohms law to justify the statement that a 2 ohm load will draw more power than a 4 ohm load. What they fail to address each the amplifiers source impendence, the source impendence acts like a resistor in series with the speaker load so when you lower the load impedance more power is lost via the source impedance. The net real world result is more power wasted and less power to the speaker. Now, if an amp is designed or specified to drive a 1 ohm load then you will see a gain in power, but most amps blow up at 1 ohm. The best reason to stay away from 2 ohm stuff is that it limits your amp choices if you decide to upgrade and install an amp. Save the 2 ohm speakers for the 1000w class D duel 18’s with bullhorn thumper guys.
I have a bunch of posts for the 1st gen TSX about how the buy speakers, it really is up to you. Take some of your favorite music to the audio store; adjust the volume so each pair plays at the same level. Most people will buy the loader equipment, this is an old audio salesman’s trick, don’t do it. Lastly, ignore what the salesman says; they get a spiff or commission on moving equipment.
Jeff
04-28-2012, 10:05 AM
#10
It’s not right vs wrong it just what to replace first. i.e, the best bang for the buck. For the base system you start with the speakers because while the amp is under powered it is not total junk. It is actually made by one of the most popular car audio brands using the same components as are used in their high end decks. Lots of people have just upgraded their speakers and have had excellent results on the base premium system. I also believe that adding a good clean aftermarket amp is the best way to build a better system but not everyone is willing to do that.
As far as 2 vs 4 ohm, let me start by saying that I have over 40 years’ experience in electronics with a lot of that in audio. I have built amps from parts and do a lot of audio repair work, so I do know what I am talking about. Most people use Ohms law to justify the statement that a 2 ohm load will draw more power than a 4 ohm load. What they fail to address each the amplifiers source impendence, the source impendence acts like a resistor in series with the speaker load so when you lower the load impedance more power is lost via the source impedance. The net real world result is more power wasted and less power to the speaker. Now, if an amp is designed or specified to drive a 1 ohm load then you will see a gain in power, but most amps blow up at 1 ohm. The best reason to stay away from 2 ohm stuff is that it limits your amp choices if you decide to upgrade and install an amp. Save the 2 ohm speakers for the 1000w class D duel 18’s with bullhorn thumper guys.
I have a bunch of posts for the 1st gen TSX about how the buy speakers, it really is up to you. Take some of your favorite music to the audio store; adjust the volume so each pair plays at the same level. Most people will buy the loader equipment, this is an old audio salesman’s trick, don’t do it. Lastly, ignore what the salesman says; they get a spiff or commission on moving equipment.
Jeff
As far as 2 vs 4 ohm, let me start by saying that I have over 40 years’ experience in electronics with a lot of that in audio. I have built amps from parts and do a lot of audio repair work, so I do know what I am talking about. Most people use Ohms law to justify the statement that a 2 ohm load will draw more power than a 4 ohm load. What they fail to address each the amplifiers source impendence, the source impendence acts like a resistor in series with the speaker load so when you lower the load impedance more power is lost via the source impedance. The net real world result is more power wasted and less power to the speaker. Now, if an amp is designed or specified to drive a 1 ohm load then you will see a gain in power, but most amps blow up at 1 ohm. The best reason to stay away from 2 ohm stuff is that it limits your amp choices if you decide to upgrade and install an amp. Save the 2 ohm speakers for the 1000w class D duel 18’s with bullhorn thumper guys.
I have a bunch of posts for the 1st gen TSX about how the buy speakers, it really is up to you. Take some of your favorite music to the audio store; adjust the volume so each pair plays at the same level. Most people will buy the loader equipment, this is an old audio salesman’s trick, don’t do it. Lastly, ignore what the salesman says; they get a spiff or commission on moving equipment.
Jeff
)There are issues with listening in an audio store. Aside from the different acoustics, there is external noise and generally lousy wiring in audio stores. Make sure that all the tone adjustments are set to level and adjust the volume for the same level for each speaker.
Finally, remember that what sounds "accurate" to me may not sound accurate to you, nor may even want "accurate." Because of the acoustics in a car, accuracy is really impossible o attain - the best you can hope for is a pleasing sound for you
04-28-2012, 10:08 AM
#11
04-28-2012, 10:36 AM
#12
but it does void your warranty 
also beside the speakers, keep in mind that the input can also affect quality. FM and radio are very compressed and lose quality, i'd assume the best music would come from a hard drive or USB drive though im not sure. i use the bluetooth streaming from my iphone to the car and i'm pretty satisfied but im not an intense audiophile
also beside the speakers, keep in mind that the input can also affect quality. FM and radio are very compressed and lose quality, i'd assume the best music would come from a hard drive or USB drive though im not sure. i use the bluetooth streaming from my iphone to the car and i'm pretty satisfied but im not an intense audiophile
04-28-2012, 11:41 AM
#13
but it does void your warranty
also beside the speakers, keep in mind that the input can also affect quality. FM and radio are very compressed and lose quality, i'd assume the best music would come from a hard drive or USB drive though im not sure. i use the bluetooth streaming from my iphone to the car and i'm pretty satisfied but im not an intense audiophile
also beside the speakers, keep in mind that the input can also affect quality. FM and radio are very compressed and lose quality, i'd assume the best music would come from a hard drive or USB drive though im not sure. i use the bluetooth streaming from my iphone to the car and i'm pretty satisfied but im not an intense audiophile
In all seriousness though, screwing with electrics in modern cars can have far reaching consequences as the systems on recent cars are inertwined.
You are also correct that the input makes a huge difference. DVD audio is probably the cleanest followed by a CD and lossless electronic media storage. XM/Sirius is very compressed and is worse than FM or HD radio.
04-28-2012, 08:58 PM
#14
Damn you guys are awesome! I agree that the sound quality varies with the input. XM is horrible! Fm isn't much better, but USB or iPod input sounds pretty good.
I put Polk dxi series in my last car and loved them. The factory amp powered them fine Was thinking of putting the MM series in the tsx, but they are 2 ohm. Now i think I'll stay with the dxi since they are 4ohm. components in the front and coaxial in the real deck. Not sure what to do with the sub in the deck.
I think I'll just do it right and add an amp. Nothing crazy, but enoug to power the speakers very well. Would I be able to just hook it up to the sub in the deck at a low level? I don't need crazy bass, but enough to balance out the rest of the system.
Mercman, I read alot of your posts regarding having to use the output from the factory amp for the signal to the added amp. Would I need a input channel for each speaker? Or is there a way to input them together? Also, where can I get a signal from for the remote? I read the xm receiver under the passenger seat, but I dont see it. Also, any tips for best way to run the power wire from the battery?
I may just hire on of you to set it all up. Lol.
I put Polk dxi series in my last car and loved them. The factory amp powered them fine Was thinking of putting the MM series in the tsx, but they are 2 ohm. Now i think I'll stay with the dxi since they are 4ohm. components in the front and coaxial in the real deck. Not sure what to do with the sub in the deck.
I think I'll just do it right and add an amp. Nothing crazy, but enoug to power the speakers very well. Would I be able to just hook it up to the sub in the deck at a low level? I don't need crazy bass, but enough to balance out the rest of the system.
Mercman, I read alot of your posts regarding having to use the output from the factory amp for the signal to the added amp. Would I need a input channel for each speaker? Or is there a way to input them together? Also, where can I get a signal from for the remote? I read the xm receiver under the passenger seat, but I dont see it. Also, any tips for best way to run the power wire from the battery?
I may just hire on of you to set it all up. Lol.
05-04-2012, 07:11 PM
#15
any updates on this? i have the mm6501s..(not yet installed) plan on getting the coaxials for the back and the polk 500.4 to amp it. I have a non-tech. The polks were a recommendation and thats why i got it.
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